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Bug Gate or Obamagate or what shall we call it?

joG said:
That is the problem, when legitimacy is lost to partisan lying, relativistic ethics and ideolo-political justice.
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So how does that relate to Bug Gate and what evidence does or does not give credibility to that?
 
MaggieD said:
My humble apology to you and to the opposition. Double shame on Maggie.
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LOL. I have to admit it was really REALLY hard to keep a straight face when I typed out my ferocious reprimand. :)
 
AlbqOwl said:
How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?

What does President Obama know about that and when did he know it?

The MSM has been bending over backwards to denounce President Trump from saying it. Nancy Pelosi says "We don't do that." President Obama through his spokespeople has said "We didn't do that and couldn't have if we wanted to."

So where do we go to get the truth? Was any part of Trump Tower and/or the Trump campaign bugged? If it was, did the Obama have anything to do with it?

NOTE: Please keep this civil and on topic. There are plenty of threads out there to insult people and the President and/or his people. Here, let's put the best arguments out there that we can make pro or con on this scandal du jour whether it is our own thoughts or thoughtful arguments presented by others that makes the allegations plausible or not, likely or not, fact or not.
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I call it "Bye Bye Trumpette."
 
calamity said:
I call it "Bye Bye Trumpette."
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Call it whatever you like so long as you keep it civil. But the topic is whether Bug Gate is plausible or not. Let's focus on that okay?
 
PeteEU said:
It is clear from this tread that Trumps outburst was more for his loyal followers than anything in reality.

Obama officials, intelligence officials, FBI and even some senior GOPers have all said it did not happen. The White House is also baffled and has been playing catch-up and damage control ever since.

That Trump basically has disappeared ever since he came with the accusations and has to send out his minions to promote another illegal travel ban, shows that he has nothing and he knows it.

Regardless even if there is an investigation because of this accusation, then it is exactly what Trump and his loyal supporters DONT want, as such investigations can rarely be fully controlled and Trumps links to Putin and his allies will be exposed. The irony is that Trump and his minions have tried to protect Trump from an investigation, but these tweets might just have opened Pandoras box..
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Then how does one explain the activities of two of trump's associates, Roger stone and carter page, who both had similar freak outs over the weekend?
 
Ikari said:
Hard to know at this point. These are serious allegations, and if there is some hint that there is some truth to it, it needs to be investigated and any wrong doing properly punished.

It may turn out that there as indeed bugging, but that it was legal and due to Trump being under investigation. So perhaps Trump may not want to scratch this itch too deeply. I think mostly this was used as deflectionary tactics given the increased scrutiny his cabinet has fallen under as continued evidence of more and more meetings with Russian officials come to light.

In the end, time will tell.
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Yes, let the chips fall where they may. As for the OP question, I'm lumping this in with all the rest of the "Russian" stuff as "TrumPutinGate". If the OP's insinuation that it's Obama's fault is correct, I'll cop to it. As I said in another thread, this has become Trump vs. Comey/FBI. I don't think the donald was wise to kick this can.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Then how does one explain the activities of two of trump's associates, Roger stone and carter page, who both had similar freak outs over the weekend?
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Avid Breitbart/Alex Jones readers, and Stone is a nut.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Call it whatever you like so long as you keep it civil. But the topic is whether Bug Gate is plausible or not. Let's focus on that okay?
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What's plausible is that Trump is hiding something and using this "I was bugged" trope as a means of misdirection and an attempt at distraction.
 
It should be called Trumpgate after it's founder.

AlbqOwl said:
How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?
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Trump could let us know whenever he feels like it.

But bear in mind the White House already came out and said Trump really meant only that someone should check IF Obama tapped Trump's phones.

So the answer from the WH seems to be "none" 'cause they don't know.

Also, there's some conflation of investigations and personnel going on in the conversation as well.

If someone in Trump tower was being monitored, is that the same as Trump's phone lines being tapped?
If someone in Trump tower was being monitored, is that the same as Trump's campaign's phones being tapped?
If someone in Trump tower was being monitored, does that mean that Obama was the one who ordered it?

Given Trump's previous tweets, I suspect that there is some tangentially related kernel at the core which doesn't actually match the tweet.

There's evidence that "Trump associates" were being targeted via FISA. So Trump was "associating" with foreign intelligence agents.

Maybe Trump took the surveillance of these "associates" personally?
Who knows?

But Trump has the power to investigate, he has the power to declassify, and he has the power to show us any evidence that does exist.
 
AlbqOwl said:
So how does that relate to Bug Gate and what evidence does or does not give credibility to that?
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It means that there is nobody to trust to be impartial. That makes it difficult to find out believably what is true. That is the central problem of the situation for our country. You don't see that?
 
AlbqOwl said:
Call it whatever you like so long as you keep it civil. But the topic is whether Bug Gate is plausible or not. Let's focus on that okay?
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What do you mean by 'plausible'? That Obama lied?that Trump did?
 
Porkuloss said:
Yes, let the chips fall where they may. As for the OP question, I'm lumping this in with all the rest of the "Russian" stuff as "TrumPutinGate". If the OP's insinuation that it's Obama's fault is correct, I'll cop to it. As I said in another thread, this has become Trump vs. Comey/FBI. I don't think the donald was wise to kick this can.
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If you do not wish to discuss the thread topic which is whether President Trump or President Obama have plausible arguments, then i will ask you to lump your Russian stuff on any one of the dozens of threads that is being discussed.

As to whether Trump is wise to 'kick that can' I would like to hear somebody other than the NY Times on whether Comey actually reprimanded the President on that. If the FBI obtained the FISA warrant to investigate Trump on his Russian connections, he wouldn't have much leg to stand on himself would he?

The hits just keep on coming:

Two separate sources with links to the counter-intelligence community have confirmed to Heat Street that the FBI sought, and was granted, a FISA court warrant in October, giving counter-intelligence permission to examine the activities of ‘U.S. persons’ in Donald Trump’s campaign with ties to Russia.

Contrary to earlier reporting in the New York Times, which cited FBI sources as saying that the agency did not believe that the private server in Donald Trump’s Trump Tower which was connected to a Russian bank had any nefarious purpose, the FBI’s counter-intelligence arm, sources say, re-drew an earlier FISA court request around possible financial and banking offenses related to the server. The first request, which, sources say, named Trump, was denied back in June, but the second was drawn more narrowly and was granted in October after evidence was presented of a server, possibly related to the Trump campaign, and its alleged links to two banks; SVB Bank and Russia’s Alfa Bank. While the Times story speaks of metadata, sources suggest that a FISA warrant was granted to look at the full content of emails and other related documents that may concern US persons. . .


. . .The FISA warrant was granted in connection with the investigation of suspected activity between the server and two banks, SVB Bank and Alfa Bank. However, it is thought in the intelligence community that the warrant covers any ‘US person’ connected to this investigation, and thus covers Donald Trump and at least three further men who have either formed part of his campaign or acted as his media surrogates. The warrant was sought, they say, because actionable intelligence on the matter provided by friendly foreign agencies could not properly be examined without a warrant by US intelligence as it involves ‘US Persons’ who come under the remit of the FBI and not the CIA. Should a counter-intelligence investigation lead to criminal prosecutions, sources say, the Justice Department is concerned that the chain of evidence have a basis in a clear warrant. . . .

https://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/​
 
AlbqOwl said:
Argument #2 from "The Hill":

Former Attorney General Michael Mukasey on Sunday said that President Trump is likely correct that there was surveillance on Trump Tower for intelligence purposes, but incorrect in accusing former President Barack Obama of ordering the wiretapping.

“I think he’s right in that there was surveillance and that it was conducted at the behest of the attorney general — at the Justice Department,” Mukasey told ABC’s “This Week. . .​
Former Bush attorney general: Trump likely right about surveillance | TheHill
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I agree with Judge Mukasey. It is wildly improbable that any lower offical would have engaged in such politically sensitive surveillance, involving people associated with the other party's presidential candidate and carried out in the middle of the race, without the knowledge and approval of the Attorney General. And probably not just her. Obama is clever enough to know how to let her know he wanted something like this done while keeping enough distance to allow him to deny any involvement. "Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?"
 
AlbqOwl said:
How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?

What does President Obama know about that and when did he know it?

The MSM has been bending over backwards to denounce President Trump from saying it. Nancy Pelosi says "We don't do that." President Obama through his spokespeople has said "We didn't do that and couldn't have if we wanted to."

So where do we go to get the truth? Was any part of Trump Tower and/or the Trump campaign bugged? If it was, did the Obama have anything to do with it?

NOTE: Please keep this civil and on topic. There are plenty of threads out there to insult people and the President and/or his people. Here, let's put the best arguments out there that we can make pro or con on this scandal du jour whether it is our own thoughts or thoughtful arguments presented by others that makes the allegations plausible or not, likely or not, fact or not.
Click to expand...

1) Trump's allegation came out of nowhere and he has provided no evidence for it.

2) Everyone in a position of authority or knowledge has denied the allegations.

3) Obama did not have the legal authority to action these allegations.

My opinion is that Trump repeated some fake news he heard on Breitbart.
 
calamity said:
What's plausible is that Trump is hiding something and using this "I was bugged" trope as a means of misdirection and an attempt at distraction.
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Show your evidence for or make your best argument that Trump is hiding something.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
It should be called Trumpgate after it's founder.


Trump could let us know whenever he feels like it.

But bear in mind the White House already came out and said Trump really meant only that someone should check IF Obama tapped Trump's phones.

So the answer from the WH seems to be "none" 'cause they don't know.

Also, there's some conflation of investigations and personnel going on in the conversation as well.

If someone in Trump tower was being monitored, is that the same as Trump's phone lines being tapped?
If someone in Trump tower was being monitored, is that the same as Trump's campaign's phones being tapped?
If someone in Trump tower was being monitored, does that mean that Obama was the one who ordered it?

Given Trump's previous tweets, I suspect that there is some tangentially related kernel at the core which doesn't actually match the tweet.

There's evidence that "Trump associates" were being targeted via FISA. So Trump was "associating" with foreign intelligence agents.

Maybe Trump took the surveillance of these "associates" personally?
Who knows?

But Trump has the power to investigate, he has the power to declassify, and he has the power to show us any evidence that does exist.
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A well thought out argument. If I was judging it in a formal debate you would score well. :)

You are right that the President has the power to declassify. I think I know the President well enough to know that we cannot trust the media or any of the Trump haters to tell this story accurately, but I'm pretty sure he's doing what he can to get to the bottom of it.
 
joG said:
It means that there is nobody to trust to be impartial. That makes it difficult to find out believably what is true. That is the central problem of the situation for our country. You don't see that?
Click to expand...

There I have to agree with you. Nobody is going to be 100% impartial on this. . .BUT. . .I do believe there are journalists and people in Washington who still manage to hold onto a code of fair play and general ethics and morality when it comes to hurting people. So I keep combing through the arguments looking for the 'aha' moment that will provide some clarity.
 
AlbqOwl said:
Argument No. 4:

The NY Times says Comey has rebuked the President for making a false statement in this matter, but we don't have Comey's version of that supposed fact.

Mark Levin has compiled quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that could turn out to be relevant.

If anybody has the guts to actually hear a well developed and articulate story, backed up with physical evidence, in favor of the President's claims. Mark Levin gives a lot to think about here--you have to watch the video to get the information though.

Excerpt:
MARK LEVIN: The evidence is overwhelming. This is not about President Trump’s tweeting. This is about the Obama administration spying, and the question is not whether it spied. We know they went to the FISA court twice. The question is who they did spy on and the extent of the spying that is the Trump campaign, the Trump transition, Trump surrogates...

They were so aggressive, they waited four or five months, they go back in October, weeks before the general election, they narrow their request, all of the sudden we have leaks coming out on Flynn. Then we have a 'Oh horrible' meeting that took place between Sessions and so forth. And I’m telling you as a former chief of staff to a United States attorney general in the Reagan administration, these are police state tactics.​


See the video here:

Mark Levin: "The Evidence Is Overwhelming" That Obama Spied On Trump | Video | RealClearPolitics
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It seems Levin is the one who came up with this based on anonymous sources, and the WH ran with it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/us/politics/trump-twitter-talk-radio-conspiracy-theory.html?_r=0

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ously-sourced-reports/?utm_term=.79bcf67a62d2

I listen to Levin when I want to hear a eight winger rant like he's about to have a stroke, which isn't often since he gave up on Cruz and did what he said he'd never do - vote for Trump. As a "source" he isn't worth considering unless he redirects to somewhere credible.
 
AlbqOwl said:
If you do not wish to discuss the thread topic which is whether President Trump or President Obama have plausible arguments, then i will ask you to lump your Russian stuff on any one of the dozens of threads that is being discussed.

As to whether Trump is wise to 'kick that can' I would like to hear somebody other than the NY Times on whether Comey actually reprimanded the President on that. If the FBI obtained the FISA warrant to investigate Trump on his Russian connections, he wouldn't have much leg to stand on himself would he?

The hits just keep on coming:

Two separate sources with links to the counter-intelligence community have confirmed to Heat Street that the FBI sought, and was granted, a FISA court warrant in October, giving counter-intelligence permission to examine the activities of ‘U.S. persons’ in Donald Trump’s campaign with ties to Russia.

Contrary to earlier reporting in the New York Times, which cited FBI sources as saying that the agency did not believe that the private server in Donald Trump’s Trump Tower which was connected to a Russian bank had any nefarious purpose, the FBI’s counter-intelligence arm, sources say, re-drew an earlier FISA court request around possible financial and banking offenses related to the server. The first request, which, sources say, named Trump, was denied back in June, but the second was drawn more narrowly and was granted in October after evidence was presented of a server, possibly related to the Trump campaign, and its alleged links to two banks; SVB Bank and Russia’s Alfa Bank. While the Times story speaks of metadata, sources suggest that a FISA warrant was granted to look at the full content of emails and other related documents that may concern US persons. . .


. . .The FISA warrant was granted in connection with the investigation of suspected activity between the server and two banks, SVB Bank and Alfa Bank. However, it is thought in the intelligence community that the warrant covers any ‘US person’ connected to this investigation, and thus covers Donald Trump and at least three further men who have either formed part of his campaign or acted as his media surrogates. The warrant was sought, they say, because actionable intelligence on the matter provided by friendly foreign agencies could not properly be examined without a warrant by US intelligence as it involves ‘US Persons’ who come under the remit of the FBI and not the CIA. Should a counter-intelligence investigation lead to criminal prosecutions, sources say, the Justice Department is concerned that the chain of evidence have a basis in a clear warrant. . . .

https://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/​
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Someone here linked me to a very interesting article that concludes the friendly foreign agency involved was British. The head of that agency suddenly resigned for no plausible reason, just about the time Mr. Trump met with the British Prime Minister. The author speculates that Trump had found out that agency had fed the Obama administration some doubtful information to furnish a pretext for the surveillance that took place; that he told Prime Minister May what he thought of it; and that she got rid of the agency's director.
 
matchlight said:
I agree with Judge Mukasey. It is wildly improbable that any lower offical would have engaged in such politically sensitive surveillance, involving people associated with the other party's presidential candidate and carried out in the middle of the race, without the knowledge and approval of the Attorney General. And probably not just her. Obama is clever enough to know how to let her know he wanted something like this done while keeping enough distance to allow him to deny any involvement. "Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?"
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That's it. It would not be the first time Obama claimed to have been in the dark about what was happening in his administration. How many times did he use the 'I learned about it the same way everybody else did--in the newspapers' argument. Throughout his tenure I railed against that really disingenuous response because there is only two ways to look at it: 1) he was lying or 2) he is totally incompetent to not demand he be informed of things like that.

And there is nobody on Earth who will convince me that if anybody in the Obama administration was spying on Donald Trump and/or any of his people, that the President wouldn't have known about it.
 
Fake News.

Funny how the man who since day 1 complained about 'fake news' has used 'fake news and unfounded conspiracy theories to get his name in the papers since 2012 and his Birther nonsense.

Let's see some HARD evidence about these 'wiretap' allegations instead of Trump's usual vague threats and tweets.

Trump has a track record of this. In 2012 he said he had evidence the Obama was a Keynan, and he was going to send a 'team' to Hawaii to prove the BC was a forgery, etc. Absolutely NOTHING came of that, NONE of it was true. Not only did he get away with the lies and nonsense, he is now POTUS. He knows what he can get away with. He knows as long as he keeps attacking Dems and the media his followers will believe anything he says. He proved it in 2012.

The only people that can stop him is the GOP. Until they step up these Trump lies and BS with continue.
 
AlbqOwl said:
If you do not wish to discuss the thread topic which is whether President Trump or President Obama have plausible arguments, then i will ask you to lump your Russian stuff on any one of the dozens of threads that is being discussed.

As to whether Trump is wise to 'kick that can' I would like to hear somebody other than the NY Times on whether Comey actually reprimanded the President on that. If the FBI obtained the FISA warrant to investigate Trump on his Russian connections, he wouldn't have much leg to stand on himself would he?

The hits just keep on coming:

Two separate sources with links to the counter-intelligence community have confirmed to Heat Street that the FBI sought, and was granted, a FISA court warrant in October, giving counter-intelligence permission to examine the activities of ‘U.S. persons’ in Donald Trump’s campaign with ties to Russia.

Contrary to earlier reporting in the New York Times, which cited FBI sources as saying that the agency did not believe that the private server in Donald Trump’s Trump Tower which was connected to a Russian bank had any nefarious purpose, the FBI’s counter-intelligence arm, sources say, re-drew an earlier FISA court request around possible financial and banking offenses related to the server. The first request, which, sources say, named Trump, was denied back in June, but the second was drawn more narrowly and was granted in October after evidence was presented of a server, possibly related to the Trump campaign, and its alleged links to two banks; SVB Bank and Russia’s Alfa Bank. While the Times story speaks of metadata, sources suggest that a FISA warrant was granted to look at the full content of emails and other related documents that may concern US persons. . .


. . .The FISA warrant was granted in connection with the investigation of suspected activity between the server and two banks, SVB Bank and Alfa Bank. However, it is thought in the intelligence community that the warrant covers any ‘US person’ connected to this investigation, and thus covers Donald Trump and at least three further men who have either formed part of his campaign or acted as his media surrogates. The warrant was sought, they say, because actionable intelligence on the matter provided by friendly foreign agencies could not properly be examined without a warrant by US intelligence as it involves ‘US Persons’ who come under the remit of the FBI and not the CIA. Should a counter-intelligence investigation lead to criminal prosecutions, sources say, the Justice Department is concerned that the chain of evidence have a basis in a clear warrant. . . .

https://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/​
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Fine. You are waiting for someone other than the NYT as a source. I'm waiting on someone other than Mark Levin. Comey can go public and deny it any time.
 
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Aristaeus said:
1) Trump's allegation came out of nowhere and he has provided no evidence for it.

2) Everyone in a position of authority or knowledge has denied the allegations.

3) Obama did not have the legal authority to action these allegations.

My opinion is that Trump repeated some fake news he heard on Breitbart.
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I will agree that Trump has not yet personally provided evidence for his allegations; however, others have done so on his behalf, most of which has already been posted or referenced in this thread.

I will agree that everyone in authority on Obama's side so far has denied the allegations, but honestly would you expect anybody to say "Yes we did and we are proud of it?"

We have already seen evidence post in this thread that Obama has the literal authority to request his people do an investigation of whatever he deems advisable. Whether such request is indeed an issue, but with this administration, that has not been much of a deterrent.
 
Porkuloss said:
Fine. You are waiting for someone other than the NYT as a source. I'm waiting on someone other than Mark Levin. Comey can go public an deny it any time.
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In the next stage of trump's insanity, he'll fire Comey, the man who provided the 'November Surprise' .
 
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