As San Fran Streets Fill with Human Waste, Grocery Store Aisle Turns Into Toilet

ElChupacabra said:

I have not ignored them despite you continued repetition. I just don't accept the premise that the failure in one state is indicative of a broader failure considering the successes of other nations. You offer only opinions as it relates to this "appeal to the heart, create dependence" memes that do not bare out in fact across the board. You just ignore that because it doesn't fit your narrative as usual. You also ignore the flaw failures of GOP controlled states and their policies in helping their constituents have access to healthcare and education. These adversely affect rust belt states which have been decimated by industries which left those regions, and with out affordable education, there's little hope of being trained for more technical jobs.

California's government is accountable; it's to the voters, yet they keep voting for the politicians who promote those policies.



I always enjoys your assumptions; they're often worth a chuckle. I am familiar with what's going on in other countries because I have family and friends who live abroad and in various parts of the world. Having worked abroad on projects, I had the opportunity to talk to colleagues about quality of life etc. I always prefer first hand information rather than solely relying on the news, and as it relates to quality of life, I talk to people in Canada, South America, and Europe.

So is your knowledge of what's going on in other countries based on the news, or first hand information?



This notion of "destroying incentive" is based on what? You continually fail to counter how it's possible other industrialized nations are productive while providing affordable healthcare. Are you saying that Germany's people lack incentive? The Dutch? And yes, healthcare is a massive expenditure across the industrialized world, but they manage to provide more access at that cost. Our system is very inefficient in that regard.

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That's because liberal arrogance won't allow you to accept the fact that liberalism is a hand out and not a hand up, it promotes dependence and destroys incentive. When people are given a fish to eat they take it and depend on a continued delivery of that fish, when they learn to fish they eat for a lifetime.

I stand by my post and you refuse again to state the principles of liberalism and show us where people rise up in class because of liberalism? California has led the nation in the wrong areas for decades, why?? When is liberalism going to solve the problems they claim to be ready to handle?

Principles of liberalism??????????????????????????????????????????? The bluest state in the nation apparently hasn't gotten the message

Conservative said:

That's because liberal arrogance won't allow you to accept the fact that liberalism is a hand out and not a hand up, it promotes dependence and destroys incentive. When people are given a fish to eat they take it and depend on a continued delivery of that fish, when they learn to fish they eat for a lifetime.

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Really? As opposed to the arrogant assumption you're making about dependence?

I stand by my post and you refuse again to state the principles of liberalism and show us where people rise up in class because of liberalism? California has led the nation in the wrong areas for decades, why?? When is liberalism going to solve the problems they claim to be ready to handle?

Principles of liberalism??????????????????????????????????????????? The bluest state in the nation apparently hasn't gotten the message

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Is your keyboard's question mark button stuck?
:lamo

Your ideological myopia is noted. You choose to focus only on failure and not acknowledge successes; something you constantly accuse others of doing. By your very own standard, GOP policies should be outright dismissed because of the failures of some red states. Of course things are more complex than just a particular ideology; execution of policies, management, etc. all play a factor into how ideas are executed. The fact you state California is an example of failure of an ideology (in regards to healthcare) without accounting for the successes in industrialized nations, demonstrates a dishonest assessment of whether a plan like this could work.

People don't rise up because of liberalism or any other political ideology, they do so because there are opportunities to do so in their respective societies. If those opportunities are few and far between, only a small group will be able to reach any level of success. This dynamic plays out often in poor countries where only a small percentage of the population has access to education. In societies where certain life essentials are publicly funded (or a mix of both private and public), there are more opportunities to take risk because the life essentials aren't a factor the way they are here.

Affordable education (especially tertiary) creates a better educated populace, and one which can be retrained should industries shift. We can't replicate that here because of the high costs to educate and train people. You can't rely on the private sector alone to do it because they have the option of out sourcing or bringing people in. Why do you support these clear inefficiencies?

ElChupacabra said:

Really? As opposed to the arrogant assumption you're making about dependence?



Is your keyboard's question mark button stuck?
:lamo

Your ideological myopia is noted. You choose to focus only on failure and not acknowledge successes; something you constantly accuse others of doing. By your very own standard, GOP policies should be outright dismissed because of the failures of some red states. Of course things are more complex than just a particular ideology; execution of policies, management, etc. all play a factor into how ideas are executed. The fact you state California is an example of failure of an ideology (in regards to healthcare) without accounting for the successes in industrialized nations, demonstrates a dishonest assessment of whether a plan like this could work.

People don't rise up because of liberalism or any other political ideology, they do so because there are opportunities to do so in their respective societies. If those opportunities are few and far between, only a small group will be able to reach any level of success. This dynamic plays out often in poor countries where only a small percentage of the population has access to education. In societies where certain life essentials are publicly funded (or a mix of both private and public), there are more opportunities to take risk because the life essentials aren't a factor the way they are here.

Affordable education (especially tertiary) creates a better educated populace, and one which can be retrained should industries shift. We can't replicate that here because of the high costs to educate and train people. You can't rely on the private sector alone to do it because they have the option of out sourcing or bringing people in. Why do you support these clear inefficiencies?

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I don't see any reason to continue this discussion with you as I have made my case, the data speaks for itself and I will be out of pocket from March 5-March 27. For the most part this has been a civil discussion and I thank you for that.

You do realize that citizens of California get FREE higher education?? Higher education is only good if students learn life skills and not how to scam the system or take courses that serve no purpose in real life

Conservative said:

I don't see any reason to continue this discussion with you as I have made my case, the data speaks for itself and I will be out of pocket from March 5-March 27. For the most part this has been a civil discussion and I thank you for that.

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You have, I would just ask you broaden it a bit because the failure of one does not imply the failure of all since we have examples of success in a variety of successful nations. The data for that, also speaks for itself. I endeavor to have civil discussions, and hope next time we have a conversation it's in the same spirit; enjoy your time off.

You do realize that citizens of California get FREE higher education?? Higher education is only good if students learn life skills and not how to scam the system or take courses that serve no purpose in real life

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Yep. Reinforcement about being strategic in how one pursues a college education is critical, and needs to be engrained in the minds of students moving forward. My daughter will start high school next year and I'm already talking to her about identifying things she's interested in career wise so the idea of academic direction is planted. I know a few people who got their master's degrees in a field but then went on to switch to something far less profitable but emotionally satisfying. Ultimately we have to decide what balance of career and living life works best for us but also provides the quality of life we want.

ElChupacabra said:

You have, I would just ask you broaden it a bit because the failure of one does not imply the failure of all since we have examples of success in a variety of successful nations. The data for that, also speaks for itself. I endeavor to have civil discussions, and hope next time we have a conversation it's in the same spirit; enjoy your time off.



Yep. Reinforcement about being strategic in how one pursues a college education is critical, and needs to be engrained in the minds of students moving forward. My daughter will start high school next year and I'm already talking to her about identifying things she's interested in career wise so the idea of academic direction is planted. I know a few people who got their master's degrees in a field but then went on to switch to something far less profitable but emotionally satisfying. Ultimately we have to decide what balance of career and living life works best for us but also provides the quality of life we want.

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I wish your daughter success which isn't dependent on money but rather satisfaction in what she is doing. that doesn't change the reality that liberalism is all about lip service appealing to the hearts when the results are total and complete dependence. People that are dependent will never fight the hand that feeds them and that grows the liberal base and defines major metropolitan areas all over the country

Actual results do matter but don't resonate with far too many. California remains an example of failure due to implementation of every principle of liberalism which you continue to ignore and refuse to answer

You continue to point to other nations NONE OF them even close to what we have here but you willingly buy what you are being told. So happy your have family and friends in other countries but it does seem to me that bias is universal. It is typical of people to support the country or city in which they live while denying the actual results in those countries. European Economies are dependent on gov't spending with money coming from higher taxes and gov't programs don't offer the incentive or the freedoms that the private sector offers. WE have the greatest economy on the face of the earth so why would you tinker with it by nominating people who don't understand it?

Conservative said:

I wish your daughter success which isn't dependent on money but rather satisfaction in what she is doing. that doesn't change the reality that liberalism is all about lip service appealing to the hearts when the results are total and complete dependence. People that are dependent will never fight the hand that feeds them and that grows the liberal base and defines major metropolitan areas all over the country

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Thanks, and yes, I agree that money isn't the only reward of labor. You have to really think about what the cost of earning your income means as it relates to the quality of your life. I'll agree to disagree about your generalization about liberalism since it's very broad and there are all sorts of shades in between. It's your assumption that people will become dependent; something not supported in actuality across the board.

Actual results do matter but don't resonate with far too many. California remains an example of failure due to implementation of every principle of liberalism which you continue to ignore and refuse to answer

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They do, it just depends on the scope of the results and the reasons for them. Again, I've already answered and stated they have failed in various aspects in successfully managing their programs and at addressing housing issues.

You continue to point to other nations NONE OF them even close to what we have here but you willingly buy what you are being told. So happy your have family and friends in other countries but it does seem to me that bias is universal. It is typical of people to support the country or city in which they live while denying the actual results in those countries. European Economies are dependent on gov't spending with money coming from higher taxes and gov't programs don't offer the incentive or the freedoms that the private sector offers. WE have the greatest economy on the face of the earth so why would you tinker with it by nominating people who don't understand it?

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Again, this all depends on the metrics on which you choose to focus. If you're fine with financial success but failures in aiding citizens, then that's what it is. Those failures will be come as costs when having to deal with those consequences. People who fail don't just disappear; they'll either require safety net systems if they're the working poor, or the cost of policing/incarceration if they turn to a life of crime. Nothing is for free as they say; so it's a matter of how you choose to spend money. Oh, and mind you, almost all of the people I know abroad are expats so their comparisons are direct knowledge of healthcare here and in their current countries of residence. We do have a great economy, but also have areas of great inefficiency, so to be fearful of addressing those inefficiencies isn't going to help address them.

ElChupacabra said:

Thanks, and yes, I agree that money isn't the only reward of labor. You have to really think about what the cost of earning your income means as it relates to the quality of your life. I'll agree to disagree about your generalization about liberalism since it's very broad and there are all sorts of shades in between. It's your assumption that people will become dependent; something not supported in actuality across the board.



They do, it just depends on the scope of the results and the reasons for them. Again, I've already answered and stated they have failed in various aspects in successfully managing their programs and at addressing housing issues.



Again, this all depends on the metrics on which you choose to focus. If you're fine with financial success but failures in aiding citizens, then that's what it is. Those failures will be come as costs when having to deal with those consequences. People who fail don't just disappear; they'll either require safety net systems if they're the working poor, or the cost of policing/incarceration if they turn to a life of crime. Nothing is for free as they say; so it's a matter of how you choose to spend money. Oh, and mind you, almost all of the people I know abroad are expats so their comparisons are direct knowledge of healthcare here and in their current countries of residence. We do have a great economy, but also have areas of great inefficiency, so to be fearful of addressing those inefficiencies isn't going to help address them.

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The financial successes always benefit the liberal elite and bureaucrats promoting all that spending in the name of compassion. You denying that California has implemented the liberal ideology 100%? You are judged on performance why should the bureaucrats in California be any different? People who fail are responsible for that failure no matter how you want to spin it. As you continue to show you think only with your heart, start using your brain and figure out that the liberal ideology doesn't hold individuals responsible for failure and always blame someone else. I support a hand up, not a hand out. A hand up isn't permanent nor should it be. California leadership continues to benefit from the dependence they have created

Conservative said:

The financial successes always benefit the liberal elite and bureaucrats promoting all that spending in the name of compassion. You denying that California has implemented the liberal ideology 100%? You are judged on performance why should the bureaucrats in California be any different? People who fail are responsible for that failure no matter how you want to spin it. As you continue to show you think only with your heart, start using your brain and figure out that the liberal ideology doesn't hold individuals responsible for failure and always blame someone else. I support a hand up, not a hand out. A hand up isn't permanent nor should it be. California leadership continues to benefit from the dependence they have created

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They're not, and as I have already stated numerous times, there are key failures there. Now if other industrialized nations with similar GDPs had failed as well, then I would agree that these programs are not possible to implement; that is not the case however. I think of this from the corporate perspective as well: if another competitor is able to implement technology/policy etc. while others failed, a company isn't going to quit just because others failed. If there's a perceived ROI, then you better believe the pressure will be on to implement said technology/policy etc. The benefit to us is a more efficient way to manage healthcare versus the inefficient and costly practice we have now; it's akin to paying for a Mercedes but getting the performance of a medium range car.

People who fail are indeed responsible for their failures, however, they live in the world along with the rest of us so their actions in remediating their failures also impact us. We can blame someone all day, but that isn't very effective unless you're banishing them to a remote island somewhere. Individuals can fail regardless of policy and will still be accountable for their failures, the question is whether they're going to have the tools to help improve their lot. At the ideological level this is where this country is very divided, and why we have a hard time implementing these systems as opposed to Germany or France, where there is general solidarity in how these programs are perceived as a national benefit.

ElChupacabra said:

They're not, and as I have already stated numerous times, there are key failures there. Now if other industrialized nations with similar GDPs had failed as well, then I would agree that these programs are not possible to implement; that is not the case however. I think of this from the corporate perspective as well: if another competitor is able to implement technology/policy etc. while others failed, a company isn't going to quit just because others failed. If there's a perceived ROI, then you better believe the pressure will be on to implement said technology/policy etc. The benefit to us is a more efficient way to manage healthcare versus the inefficient and costly practice we have now; it's akin to paying for a Mercedes but getting the performance of a medium range car.

People who fail are indeed responsible for their failures, however, they live in the world along with the rest of us so their actions in remediating their failures also impact us. We can blame someone all day, but that isn't very effective unless you're banishing them to a remote island somewhere. Individuals can fail regardless of policy and will still be accountable for their failures, the question is whether they're going to have the tools to help improve their lot. At the ideological level this is where this country is very divided, and why we have a hard time implementing these systems as opposed to Germany or France, where there is general solidarity in how these programs are perceived as a national benefit.

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What you prove is the liberal ideology has predominantly a cult following and that doesn't do a thing for your credibility. Keep ignoring state and local responsibility and accountability as you seek Federal involvement in state and local issues, never going to work and hasn't worked. California is a fiscal disaster as well as a moral disaster so rather than address the problem you continue to double down refusing to acknowledge that the liberal ideology is fully implemented in the state of California and the results are a disaster

Conservative said:

What you prove is the liberal ideology has predominantly a cult following and that doesn't do a thing for your credibility. Keep ignoring state and local responsibility and accountability as you seek Federal involvement in state and local issues, never going to work and hasn't worked.

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I suppose we can keep going around this carousel, but hyperbolic statements like "ideology has predominantly a cult following" doesn't do anything as a valid counter argument. State and local responsibilities can be modified based on need. You recently made a comment about local police departments assisting ICE in immigration enforcement; something they're not legally bound to do but could potentially change if the laws in place are modified. You can take the defeatist point of view, but that it has worked in other industrialized nations is a point you continue to ignore.

California is a fiscal disaster as well as a moral disaster so rather than address the problem you continue to double down refusing to acknowledge that the liberal ideology is fully implemented in the state of California and the results are a disaster

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I'm not sure why you insist on me not acknowledging the failures in California when I've done so multiple times. I just don't accept the premise that because one state in the country has failed I means an entire ideology has failed; that just doesn't make any logical sense in the face of successes in other industrialized nations. So I guess from now on I will apply your logic to conservatism since it's clearly failed most red states and should therefore not have any credibility. The next time a conservative talks about taxes I'll just say: "well conservatives have no credibility on taxes because surely you remember what they did in Kansas under Brownback...total FAIL".

ElChupacabra said:

I suppose we can keep going around this carousel, but hyperbolic statements like "ideology has predominantly a cult following" doesn't do anything as a valid counter argument. State and local responsibilities can be modified based on need. You recently made a comment about local police departments assisting ICE in immigration enforcement; something they're not legally bound to do but could potentially change if the laws in place are modified. You can take the defeatist point of view, but that it has worked in other industrialized nations is a point you continue to ignore.



I'm not sure why you insist on me not acknowledging the failures in California when I've done so multiple times. I just don't accept the premise that because one state in the country has failed I means an entire ideology has failed; that just doesn't make any logical sense in the face of successes in other industrialized nations. So I guess from now on I will apply your logic to conservatism since it's clearly failed most red states and should therefore not have any credibility. The next time a conservative talks about taxes I'll just say: "well conservatives have no credibility on taxes because surely you remember what they did in Kansas under Brownback...total FAIL".

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More information on the success of liberal social policies

Hotel California. Parody and Social Message. By Shawn Kuchinsky. - YouTube

Conservative said:

More information on the success of liberal social policies

Hotel California. Parody and Social Message. By Shawn Kuchinsky. - YouTube

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Is that what it is? I thought it was just a bad parody of an Eagles song.

ElChupacabra said:

Is that what it is? I thought it was just a bad parody of an Eagles song.

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Yep, interesting how the richest state in the nation has the worst social results after implementing liberal social programs which spend in the name of compassion. Giving people handouts destroys incentive and makes the dependent. that is how liberals keep power.

California needs to pioneer equal protection of the law for unemployment compensation for simply being unemployed in our at-will employment States and proclaim, Eureka!

Conservative said:

Yep, interesting how the richest state in the nation has the worst social results after implementing liberal social programs which spend in the name of compassion. Giving people handouts destroys incentive and makes the dependent. that is how liberals keep power.

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This premise is not supported by fact. You would have to explain how incentive has been destroyed across comparable places for this to be true.

ElChupacabra said:

This premise is not supported by fact. You would have to explain how incentive has been destroyed across comparable places for this to be true.

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No I posted official results on the most liberal state in the country, an embarrassment

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Conservative said:

No I posted official results on the most liberal state in the country, an embarrassment

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

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Which is just one example out of other places where social programs have been more successful. GOP tax policy credibility holds no validity because of the failures in Kansas and now Alaska, right?

Higher paid labor create more in capital demand and pay more in capital taxes.

ElChupacabra said:

Which is just one example out of other places where social programs have been more successful. GOP tax policy credibility holds no validity because of the failures in Kansas and now Alaska, right?

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As I have stated and you ignored give me another state in the country that hasn't had a Republican legislature in approximately 60 years? Stop making excuses for failure and accept responsibility that the liberal ideology is a failure.

Conservative said:

As I have stated and you ignored give me another state in the country that hasn't had a Republican legislature in approximately 60 years? Stop making excuses for failure and accept responsibility that the liberal ideology is a failure.

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No excuses are necessary. You present a flawed premise which assumes the failure of one state means an ideology has failed considering there's implementation and management which also affect outcomes. You only like to focus on the failures which fit your narrative and ignore the ones which don't suit yours. The failure of GOP management in red states of healthcare, quality of education, crime management, and recent failures at tax policy (both Kansas and Alaska) should, by your standards, make conservatism an equal failure.

ElChupacabra said:

No excuses are necessary. You present a flawed premise which assumes the failure of one state means an ideology has failed considering there's implementation and management which also affect outcomes. You only like to focus on the failures which fit your narrative and ignore the ones which don't suit yours. The failure of GOP management in red states of healthcare, quality of education, crime management, and recent failures at tax policy (both Kansas and Alaska) should, by your standards, make conservatism an equal failure.

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It is only flawed to people who will never accept responsibility for the failure of an ideology. If Kansas is doing so poorly the people will react, doubt you have any knowledge of what is going on in Kansas but willingly buy media reports and left wing attacks. There is no comparison between Kansas/Alaska/California and most people get it. How can the 5th largest GDP in the world not benefit the people of the state that the left promises to help?

Conservative said:

It is only flawed to people who will never accept responsibility for the failure of an ideology.

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Not at all, and for the reasons I stated. Ideologies fail for a variety of reasons; the prime ones being implementation and management. You can have a feasible idea fail miserably if you fail at both.

If Kansas is doing so poorly the people will react, doubt you have any knowledge of what is going on in Kansas but willingly buy media reports and left wing attacks.

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They did. They got rid of Brownback who instituted the policy and Alaska is doing the same through their recall effort. There's no need for left wing attacks since this was a pretty clear situation of a tax policy which was ineffectual at achieving the promises made by the then governor.

There is no comparison between Kansas/Alaska/California and most people get it. How can the 5th largest GDP in the world not benefit the people of the state that the left promises to help?

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At the governance and management level, you can surely compare what different states are doing. I only mentioned those states to point out the absurdity of your premise that failure of state policy management equals failure of an ideology. Now, if you stated that California has grossly mismanaged certain policies, then sure. But you're branding the failure of an ideology purely on the failure of one state to handle their business.

So why do red states fail at the issues I mentioned, and why don't you critique those failures?

ElChupacabra said:

Not at all, and for the reasons I stated. Ideologies fail for a variety of reasons; the prime ones being implementation and management. You can have a feasible idea fail miserably if you fail at both.




They did. They got rid of Brownback who instituted the policy and Alaska is doing the same through their recall effort. There's no need for left wing attacks since this was a pretty clear situation of a tax policy which was ineffectual at achieving the promises made by the then governor.




At the governance and management level, you can surely compare what different states are doing. I only mentioned those states to point out the absurdity of your premise that failure of state policy management equals failure of an ideology. Now, if you stated that California has grossly mismanaged certain policies, then sure. But you're branding the failure of an ideology purely on the failure of one state to handle their business.

So why do red states fail at the issues I mentioned, and why don't you critique those failures?

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Liberals give lip service and promote spending in the name of compassion but the only real compassion goes to the liberal leadership elite that implement these programs and when you implement social programs without strings and limitations you create California's all over the country. Liberalism meant well but it is a failed ideology that ignores human behavior and incentive

You assume that red states fail and you base that on some kind of reports that don't provide any context, TX may lead the nation in uninsured but context tells a different story as TX has programs for the uninsured and I am involved in one that services a lot of different people. Be careful in pointing to specific WHO reports none of which measure individual countries the same way. It is quite telling that people are flocking to TX to apparently become uninsured, receive low wages, and fight pollution according to every report. Must be a lot of dumbass people and I only thought they were liberal

Conservative said:

Liberals give lip service and promote spending in the name of compassion but the only real compassion goes to the liberal leadership elite that implement these programs and when you implement social programs without strings and limitations you create California's all over the country. Liberalism meant well but it is a failed ideology that ignores human behavior and incentive

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I will agree that ideas which don't account for rational ways to fund the programs should be critiqued. That, however, does not imply a failure of ideology but one of implementation; idealism that isn't tempered by practicality will likely fail.

You assume that red states fail and you base that on some kind of reports that don't provide any context, TX may lead the nation in uninsured but context tells a different story as TX has programs for the uninsured and I am involved in one that services a lot of different people.

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Some clarification is needed then, because one would assume that if a program is providing coverage, those people would be classified among the insured. If any of these programs are Federally funded, then it doesn't really make a strong case for lack of government involvement. What's interesting in the states that are toward the bottom of the list is the public health numbers are pretty bad as well; it's not a good thing if not only is healthcare hard to access, but you have a population which will likely need quite a bit of it.

As for the other failures I pointed out in education and poverty, they're based on educational test results and crime metrics. I'm not sure what other context is required to explain why state governments have failed to address them if conservative ideology is supposed to provide better solutions.

Be careful in pointing to specific WHO reports none of which measure individual countries the same way.

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I base my assessments both on published information from multiple sources, as well as anecdotal information from the people I know who live there. I don't think any rational person assumes any of these countries don't have their share of problems in managing their social programs, but you don't get many people in those nations wishing they had the healthcare system we have here.

It is quite telling that people are flocking to TX to apparently become uninsured, receive low wages, and fight pollution according to every report. Must be a lot of dumbass people and I only thought they were liberal

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The people who have been moving to Texas are generally middle class professionals who can aren't affected by the issues you cited above. Since you mentioned liberals, it's interesting to note that the main areas seeing the largest migration are the large cities, which interestingly enough lean liberal politically. What will be interesting to see over the long haul is the impact the added population has on local government, because as standard of living increases, so do the costs and the issues that brings. Migration to Texas has slowed in part due to the improved labor market, so we'll see if that changes.