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Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

Integrityrespec

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So this is the "crimes" upon which that democrats want to impeach and remove. Where is a "crime" under judicial statute in U.S. law? Why did democrats not cry out when Obama did a prisoner swap for Beau Berkdall. That was clearly without congressional approval and illegal. When Obama gave pseudo citizenship to Dreamers without Congressional approval? When Obama ordered his administration and the A.G. not to hand over documents regarding Fast and Furious?
Sure is a one way street.
Where are the crimes. If trump is actually convinced that the Bidens were participating to corrupt monetary gain by selling the position of the VP, is that a crime to seek out the answers? I'd say no way. Joe Biden, "I told them they didn't get the Billion dollars if they didn't fire the prosecutor. I'll be a son of a bitch, they fired him."
 
There is no crime.

It's a circus. The senate will cast their vote, Trump will be found innocent, and that will be it. The impeachment is a huge waste of time and taxpayer dollars.
 
Integrityrespec is talking about 'judicial' crimes not impeachment.

swing_voter understands the GOP circus in the Senate will find Trump but does not understand that the Senate cannot find him innocent only Not Guilty The info coming out however will add to the growing indictments of Trump in the various states when he leaves office.
 
Even Trump's closest defenders in the Senate said that ...

Lindsey Graham said:
you don't even have to be convicted of a crime to lose your job in this constitutional republic if this body determines that your conduct as a public official is clearly out of bounds in your role." He also argued that "impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.

Also, check out this wonderful video - this one will help you with Obstruction article of Impeachment.

 
There is no crime.

It's a circus. The senate will cast their vote, Trump will be found innocent, and that will be it. The impeachment is a huge waste of time and taxpayer dollars.
I am looking forward to Trump finally being afforded the opportunity to respond to the democrats accusations.
Imo any and all witnesses that he wants to offer as part of his defense should be allowed. I would not allow the Democrats any new witnesses outside of sny that can offer direct testimony to whatever defense Trump presents.
Democrats up to this point have been moving the goal posts with their accusations constantly changing. Now that the articles of impeachment have been sent to the Senate, that game needs to be put a stop to. If they allow new witnesses the democrats will continue to play the same game of making it like trying to nail slime to a wall. Let them howl about it being unfair all they want. They have slready made it abundandtly clear they have no intention of operating in good faith.
In my mind theres two big questions that need to be answered.
1. How each senator votes
2. How voters will react to it in November.
This trial is going to happen and everyone in congress will be on record. Theres no equivocating.

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So this is the "crimes" upon which that democrats want to impeach and remove. Where is a "crime" under judicial statute in U.S. law? Why did democrats not cry out when Obama did a prisoner swap for Beau Berkdall. That was clearly without congressional approval and illegal. When Obama gave pseudo citizenship to Dreamers without Congressional approval? When Obama ordered his administration and the A.G. not to hand over documents regarding Fast and Furious?
Sure is a one way street.
Where are the crimes. If trump is actually convinced that the Bidens were participating to corrupt monetary gain by selling the position of the VP, is that a crime to seek out the answers? I'd say no way. Joe Biden, "I told them they didn't get the Billion dollars if they didn't fire the prosecutor. I'll be a son of a bitch, they fired him."

How many hundreds of times will it take to understand no 'crime' needs to be committed for an impeachment. Impeachment is not the judicial system and has nothing to do with a court of law, laws.

Just keep repeating the same old disinformation it's the republicans way.
 
I am looking forward to Trump finally being afforded the opportunity to respond to the democrats accusations.
Imo any and all witnesses that he wants to offer as part of his defense should be allowed. I would not allow the Democrats any new witnesses outside of sny that can offer direct testimony to whatever defense Trump presents.
Democrats up to this point have been moving the goal posts with their accusations constantly changing. Now that the articles of impeachment have been sent to the Senate, that game needs to be put a stop to. If they allow new witnesses the democrats will continue to play the same game of making it like trying to nail slime to a wall. Let them howl about it being unfair all they want. They have slready made it abundandtly clear they have no intention of operating in good faith.
In my mind theres two big questions that need to be answered.
1. How each senator votes
2. How voters will react to it in November.
This trial is going to happen and everyone in congress will be on record. Theres no equivocating.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the president who is blocking people from testifying and refusing to turn over any documents?

I would double-check my opinion of who isn't operating in good faith.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it the president who is blocking people from testifying and refusing to turn over any documents?

I would double-check my opinion of who isn't operating in good faith.
You are correct he has raised objections to releasing information requested by congress. Correct me if im wrong now, but congress have choosen not to challenge his objections in a court of law. If they feel they have a legitimate complaint (which i believe they do) they should make their argument in front of a judge.
I have a theory why they are avoiding the courts. As i said above i believe they would win in court about having people show up, depending on which documents they want, they would win some of those as well. The problem they have is that each question and document they want is also subject to being challenged and scrutinized by the court. I think they will lose many of those challenges and they would. The court is going to grant them things that do not pertain to evidence of a crime when no crime is being alleged.

I keep hearing about how Bolton is a key witness that has needed testimony. If they feel that way, theres nothing stopping the house from calling him in front of one of their committees and extracting this supposed essential testimony and giving it to the managers to present as part of their case against Trump. Can you explain why they have subpoenaed him?

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You are correct he has raised objections to releasing information requested by congress. Correct me if im wrong now, but congress have choosen not to challenge his objections in a court of law. If they feel they have a legitimate complaint (which i believe they do) they should make their argument in front of a judge.
I have a theory why they are avoiding the courts. As i said above i believe they would win in court about having people show up, depending on which documents they want, they would win some of those as well. The problem they have is that each question and document they want is also subject to being challenged and scrutinized by the court. I think they will lose many of those challenges and they would. The court is going to grant them things that do not pertain to evidence of a crime when no crime is being alleged.

I keep hearing about how Bolton is a key witness that has needed testimony. If they feel that way, theres nothing stopping the house from calling him in front of one of their committees and extracting this supposed essential testimony and giving it to the managers to present as part of their case against Trump. Can you explain why they have subpoenaed him?

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Is that what you call what the president is doing, raising objections?

It should be apparent if this went through the court system we would still be in the court system five years from now.

Trump has been impeached and that will never go away. What the senate does is on the senate.
 
Even Trump's closest defenders in the Senate said that.

I understand the sentiment and there is some merit to this point of view. I'm not trying to dismiss the dispute right off the bat. However, there are two problems with a criterion based on dissatisfaction.

The first problem is perhaps the less foreceful. The power to impeach specifically refer to crimes and misdemeanors and, prior to the current case, all cases involving the impeachment of president involved criminal charges. You might find this to be a less interesting point, but it's absolutely fair to point out that Democrats have set a new precedent and there is always some danger in setting new precedents.

The second problem in my opinion is far more serious. I will concede right away that you can absolutely have legitimate misgivings about how much Donald Trump can be trusted with executive authority in the comming years. However, what do you think would happen if you gave a list of hypothetical scenarios to strangers and asked them whether or not they constituted either "obstruction of congress" or "abuse of power"? I think you would get a lot of very different answers. I am not saying that the social norm, the ethical standard you wish to enforce here has no merit. What I am saying is that the grey area around the line you're trying to draw is too easy to manipulate. If Donald Trump committed purjury, we would be having a very different conversation: it's a clear line and the dispute would center around facts, not around how far the president is allowed to go. And that is the problem. People who dislike the president will say that he clearly crossed a line and people who like him will say that the line must be further because others before him did far worse.


If you lived in a world where Democrats and Republicans agreed on a strict limit to executive powers and observed high standards of moral behavior, I would completely agree with you: that was going too far. But in the current context, going after Trump for anything short of something really horrible is going to be perceived as highly partisan. To Republican voters and even to many moderates, the whole process looks like Democrats trying to circumvent the electoral process.

This reminds me of an appearence Jordan Peterson made on Real Time with Bill Maher. At one point, he asked other people to imagine for the sake of the argument that they eventually get Donald Trump for unethical behavior or even perhaps for a crime and they successfully impeach him. What exactly can you say to the dissafected Trump supporters? It's certainly not the same Democrats who spent the last 4 years demonizing them as nazis, white nationalists and hateful bigots that are in any position to address their concerns. The reason Donald Trump exists is because he actually picked up on legitimate concerns and issues. Whether you agree or not with how he tackles them is irrelevant. The point of the matter is that he listened to people who have been spat on their face for decades by well-to-do ubranites who mock their faith or insult them everytime they express concerns about their culture and values...

Can you honestly say you're going to make America a better place by going after Donald Trump with procedural tricks? As far as I can tell, Democrats are throwing a hail marry, hoping they can get rid of him and face a less potent player comes 2020.
 
Is that what you call what the president is doing, raising objections?

It should be apparent if this went through the court system we would still be in the court system five years from now.

Trump has been impeached and that will never go away. What the senate does is on the senate.

I dont know how long it would take the courts to rule. As the saying goes the wheels of justice move slowly. That is no excuse to bypass them simply because some people are impatient.
Trump denying a congressional demand for testimony and documents isnt unusaul. Its typical behavior by presidents.
Yes your right, the democrats held a partisan vote to impeach him despite bipartisan support against it. The only thing that proves is that the democrats think he ahould be removed. Thats no great revelation. They have been calling on impeaching him since before he was even inaugurated.

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So this is the "crimes" upon which that democrats want to impeach and remove. Where is a "crime" under judicial statute in U.S. law? Why did democrats not cry out when Obama did a prisoner swap for Beau Berkdall. That was clearly without congressional approval and illegal. When Obama gave pseudo citizenship to Dreamers without Congressional approval? When Obama ordered his administration and the A.G. not to hand over documents regarding Fast and Furious?
Sure is a one way street.
Where are the crimes. If trump is actually convinced that the Bidens were participating to corrupt monetary gain by selling the position of the VP, is that a crime to seek out the answers? I'd say no way. Joe Biden, "I told them they didn't get the Billion dollars if they didn't fire the prosecutor. I'll be a son of a bitch, they fired him."

The difference between a straw and the last straw?

Why any obstruction at all, if nothing wrong was going on?
 
Is that what you call what the president is doing, raising objections?

Disputing over how far he should expose himself to scrutiny by a body of the legislature dominated by people who hate him seem like what every sane person would do under similar circumstances. I would do exactly what he did regarding documents. Anything that could be used to score brownie points against me, I would not want out -- even in the event that nothing is technically incriminating.

It should be apparent if this went through the court system we would still be in the court system five years from now.

I do not have expertise on the time it takes to process a legal dispute between the legislature and the executive at the federal level, but I suspect they would get their answers well before Donald Trump would finish his second term, assuming he wins the election.

Trump has been impeached and that will never go away. What the senate does is on the senate.

Although I agree with the spirit behind limiting the power of the executive and the wish to impose high ethical standards on the office of the president in particular, I believe Democrats set a dangerous precedent for political reasons. As for what the Senate does, I will submit that Democrats also set another dangerous precedent years ago for equally political reasons: they acquitted Bill Clinton in spite of the criminal nature of the accusations. And that was at a time when people had more in common across party lines. Why should Republicans enforce a norm Democrats refused to enforce?

If the roles were reversed and we lived in an imginary world were a Republican got acquitted in the 1990s and Obama was on trial for some of his unauthorized drone strikes, you would be on this website talking about Republicans are going for a partisan coup. I perfectly understand why Republicans elected a gigantic middle finger. It's the finger some people really deserved.
 
Disputing over how far he should expose himself to scrutiny by a body of the legislature dominated by people who hate him seem like what every sane person would do under similar circumstances. I would do exactly what he did regarding documents. Anything that could be used to score brownie points against me, I would not want out -- even in the event that nothing is technically incriminating.

I would have tried to get along better with Congress. No need to impeach here; just faithful execution of our Constitution going on.
 
Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

when you extort foreign countries for an election interference bribe and then try to cover it up, you are likely to be impeached if your cult doesn't control the house. plenty of people could have and probably did tell the impeached orange imbecile as much back when he was just the orange imbecile.
 
Integrityrespec is talking about 'judicial' crimes not impeachment.

swing_voter understands the GOP circus in the Senate will find Trump but does not understand that the Senate cannot find him innocent only Not Guilty The info coming out however will add to the growing indictments of Trump in the various states when he leaves office.

Under our system, not guilty and innocent are synonymous. You need to proven guilty, not proven innocent.
 
when you extort foreign countries for an election interference bribe and then try to cover it up, you are likely to be impeached if your cult doesn't control the house. plenty of people could have and probably did tell the impeached orange imbecile as much back when he was just the orange imbecile.

False, the closest thing to quid pro quo was an investigation announcement coupled with a WH visit, maybe he should have sold a visit to the Lincoln bedroom per Bill Clinton, easier to manage.
 
False, the closest thing to quid pro quo was an investigation announcement coupled with a WH visit, maybe he should have sold a visit to the Lincoln bedroom per Bill Clinton, easier to manage.

i stand by my argument, because i am correct.
 
How many hundreds of times will it take to understand no 'crime' needs to be committed for an impeachment. Impeachment is not the judicial system and has nothing to do with a court of law, laws.

I do not want to be condescending, but the Constitution actually limits the power to impeach.

Article II, section 4:
The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

And the historical precedents until this latest case were that presidents were always accused and tried on account of crimes.


So, look at the articles of impeachment. Does it sound anything like it fits precendents or the letter of the law? Democrats could accuse him of a crime and make a case for it, but they chose no to do it. A very serious argument can be made that Democrats abused their power. You do not have the power to remove a president from office over anything you want. You have the power to remove him from office if he did something explicitly listed in section 4 and assuming you can convince 2/3 of the Senate that he is guilty of at least of one of those things.
 
Under our system, not guilty and innocent are synonymous. You need to proven guilty, not proven innocent.

That's only the case when considering criminal conduct. When considering solely political conduct then the only thing that matters is how well the accusation plays in the press. If you can come up with a good enough accusation that the media decides to back you then you have your "crime" and can prosecute however you see fit. Democrats have the absolute right to accuse Trump of whatever they want to and to prosecute him however they see fit. There is no requirement that Trump be afforded due process or even a defense and the ONLY reason he is being afforded anything close to that is because the Republicans hold a majority in the Senate.

What we are witnessing with this impeachment is one political party exercising powers they were never intended to have for a purpose that the Constitution was created to prevent. All that needs happen now is for a few Republicans to ignore what's going on and we may as well be Germany in 1933.
 
i stand by my argument, because i am correct.

Ah yes, the well known legal argument of Ego sum recte, quia dico ego recte. How could we all have been so naive as to have dismissed such an argument.
 
Ah yes, the well known legal argument of Ego sum recte, quia dico ego recte. How could we all have been so naive as to have dismissed such an argument.

my post :

when you extort foreign countries for an election interference bribe and then try to cover it up, you are likely to be impeached if your cult doesn't control the house. plenty of people could have and probably did tell the impeached orange imbecile as much back when he was just the orange imbecile.

i won't say that it was a perfect post because i don't huff orange clown paint like the mango marmot, but it's pretty accurate just the same.
 
Under our system, not guilty and innocent are synonymous. You need to proven guilty, not proven innocent.

Not, they are not 'synonymous'. You don't know the law or the statutes.
 
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