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Thread: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Slavister View Post
    Even Trump's closest defenders in the Senate said that.
    I understand the sentiment and there is some merit to this point of view. I'm not trying to dismiss the dispute right off the bat. However, there are two problems with a criterion based on dissatisfaction.

    The first problem is perhaps the less foreceful. The power to impeach specifically refer to crimes and misdemeanors and, prior to the current case, all cases involving the impeachment of president involved criminal charges. You might find this to be a less interesting point, but it's absolutely fair to point out that Democrats have set a new precedent and there is always some danger in setting new precedents.

    The second problem in my opinion is far more serious. I will concede right away that you can absolutely have legitimate misgivings about how much Donald Trump can be trusted with executive authority in the comming years. However, what do you think would happen if you gave a list of hypothetical scenarios to strangers and asked them whether or not they constituted either "obstruction of congress" or "abuse of power"? I think you would get a lot of very different answers. I am not saying that the social norm, the ethical standard you wish to enforce here has no merit. What I am saying is that the grey area around the line you're trying to draw is too easy to manipulate. If Donald Trump committed purjury, we would be having a very different conversation: it's a clear line and the dispute would center around facts, not around how far the president is allowed to go. And that is the problem. People who dislike the president will say that he clearly crossed a line and people who like him will say that the line must be further because others before him did far worse.


    If you lived in a world where Democrats and Republicans agreed on a strict limit to executive powers and observed high standards of moral behavior, I would completely agree with you: that was going too far. But in the current context, going after Trump for anything short of something really horrible is going to be perceived as highly partisan. To Republican voters and even to many moderates, the whole process looks like Democrats trying to circumvent the electoral process.

    This reminds me of an appearence Jordan Peterson made on Real Time with Bill Maher. At one point, he asked other people to imagine for the sake of the argument that they eventually get Donald Trump for unethical behavior or even perhaps for a crime and they successfully impeach him. What exactly can you say to the dissafected Trump supporters? It's certainly not the same Democrats who spent the last 4 years demonizing them as nazis, white nationalists and hateful bigots that are in any position to address their concerns. The reason Donald Trump exists is because he actually picked up on legitimate concerns and issues. Whether you agree or not with how he tackles them is irrelevant. The point of the matter is that he listened to people who have been spat on their face for decades by well-to-do ubranites who mock their faith or insult them everytime they express concerns about their culture and values...

    Can you honestly say you're going to make America a better place by going after Donald Trump with procedural tricks? As far as I can tell, Democrats are throwing a hail marry, hoping they can get rid of him and face a less potent player comes 2020.
    All people who oppose free speech are trying to sell you snake oil. There is absolutely no exception to this rule.

  2. #12

    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by bongsaway View Post
    Is that what you call what the president is doing, raising objections?

    It should be apparent if this went through the court system we would still be in the court system five years from now.

    Trump has been impeached and that will never go away. What the senate does is on the senate.
    I dont know how long it would take the courts to rule. As the saying goes the wheels of justice move slowly. That is no excuse to bypass them simply because some people are impatient.
    Trump denying a congressional demand for testimony and documents isnt unusaul. Its typical behavior by presidents.
    Yes your right, the democrats held a partisan vote to impeach him despite bipartisan support against it. The only thing that proves is that the democrats think he ahould be removed. Thats no great revelation. They have been calling on impeaching him since before he was even inaugurated.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Integrityrespec View Post
    So this is the "crimes" upon which that democrats want to impeach and remove. Where is a "crime" under judicial statute in U.S. law? Why did democrats not cry out when Obama did a prisoner swap for Beau Berkdall. That was clearly without congressional approval and illegal. When Obama gave pseudo citizenship to Dreamers without Congressional approval? When Obama ordered his administration and the A.G. not to hand over documents regarding Fast and Furious?
    Sure is a one way street.
    Where are the crimes. If trump is actually convinced that the Bidens were participating to corrupt monetary gain by selling the position of the VP, is that a crime to seek out the answers? I'd say no way. Joe Biden, "I told them they didn't get the Billion dollars if they didn't fire the prosecutor. I'll be a son of a bitch, they fired him."
    The difference between a straw and the last straw?

    Why any obstruction at all, if nothing wrong was going on?

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by bongsaway View Post
    Is that what you call what the president is doing, raising objections?
    Disputing over how far he should expose himself to scrutiny by a body of the legislature dominated by people who hate him seem like what every sane person would do under similar circumstances. I would do exactly what he did regarding documents. Anything that could be used to score brownie points against me, I would not want out -- even in the event that nothing is technically incriminating.

    Quote Originally Posted by bongsaway View Post
    It should be apparent if this went through the court system we would still be in the court system five years from now.
    I do not have expertise on the time it takes to process a legal dispute between the legislature and the executive at the federal level, but I suspect they would get their answers well before Donald Trump would finish his second term, assuming he wins the election.

    Quote Originally Posted by bongsaway View Post
    Trump has been impeached and that will never go away. What the senate does is on the senate.
    Although I agree with the spirit behind limiting the power of the executive and the wish to impose high ethical standards on the office of the president in particular, I believe Democrats set a dangerous precedent for political reasons. As for what the Senate does, I will submit that Democrats also set another dangerous precedent years ago for equally political reasons: they acquitted Bill Clinton in spite of the criminal nature of the accusations. And that was at a time when people had more in common across party lines. Why should Republicans enforce a norm Democrats refused to enforce?

    If the roles were reversed and we lived in an imginary world were a Republican got acquitted in the 1990s and Obama was on trial for some of his unauthorized drone strikes, you would be on this website talking about Republicans are going for a partisan coup. I perfectly understand why Republicans elected a gigantic middle finger. It's the finger some people really deserved.
    All people who oppose free speech are trying to sell you snake oil. There is absolutely no exception to this rule.

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by TheEconomist View Post
    Disputing over how far he should expose himself to scrutiny by a body of the legislature dominated by people who hate him seem like what every sane person would do under similar circumstances. I would do exactly what he did regarding documents. Anything that could be used to score brownie points against me, I would not want out -- even in the event that nothing is technically incriminating.
    I would have tried to get along better with Congress. No need to impeach here; just faithful execution of our Constitution going on.

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Abuse of power, obstruction of congress
    when you extort foreign countries for an election interference bribe and then try to cover it up, you are likely to be impeached if your cult doesn't control the house. plenty of people could have and probably did tell the impeached orange imbecile as much back when he was just the orange imbecile.

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesbyoung View Post
    Integrityrespec is talking about 'judicial' crimes not impeachment.

    swing_voter understands the GOP circus in the Senate will find Trump but does not understand that the Senate cannot find him innocent only Not Guilty The info coming out however will add to the growing indictments of Trump in the various states when he leaves office.
    Under our system, not guilty and innocent are synonymous. You need to proven guilty, not proven innocent.

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    when you extort foreign countries for an election interference bribe and then try to cover it up, you are likely to be impeached if your cult doesn't control the house. plenty of people could have and probably did tell the impeached orange imbecile as much back when he was just the orange imbecile.
    False, the closest thing to quid pro quo was an investigation announcement coupled with a WH visit, maybe he should have sold a visit to the Lincoln bedroom per Bill Clinton, easier to manage.

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by OpportunityCost View Post
    False, the closest thing to quid pro quo was an investigation announcement coupled with a WH visit, maybe he should have sold a visit to the Lincoln bedroom per Bill Clinton, easier to manage.
    i stand by my argument, because i am correct.

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    Re: Abuse of power, obstruction of congress

    Quote Originally Posted by bongsaway View Post
    How many hundreds of times will it take to understand no 'crime' needs to be committed for an impeachment. Impeachment is not the judicial system and has nothing to do with a court of law, laws.
    I do not want to be condescending, but the Constitution actually limits the power to impeach.

    Article II, section 4:
    The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.

    And the historical precedents until this latest case were that presidents were always accused and tried on account of crimes.


    So, look at the articles of impeachment. Does it sound anything like it fits precendents or the letter of the law? Democrats could accuse him of a crime and make a case for it, but they chose no to do it. A very serious argument can be made that Democrats abused their power. You do not have the power to remove a president from office over anything you want. You have the power to remove him from office if he did something explicitly listed in section 4 and assuming you can convince 2/3 of the Senate that he is guilty of at least of one of those things.
    All people who oppose free speech are trying to sell you snake oil. There is absolutely no exception to this rule.

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