Left V Right and it's usefulness as a WMD

This forum has , imo , seen a huge increase in **** fests involving people on both sides of the aisle blaming the other for the woes they see and live amongst.

The " it's all because of the Left " , " it's all because of the Right " , " that's what the Right is like " , " that's what the Left is like "...........is infecting everything and anything being discussed and I have a message for you all.

You are being played just as we are being played in the UK

We live in plutocracies which is the term used to describe..... rule by the wealthy ( and obviously following on from that... for the wealthy )

Recall who has the control over the vast industry which is in essence perception management AKA the MSM............ it's corporations.

In short the rich rule behind the scenes with politicians serving as actors in the pantomime passed off as a meaningful democracy.

These politicians are funded/bankrolled by the rich corporate elites and their lobbying influences/controls policy. Have you even known those who pay the piper to not call the tune ?

The Left V Right weapon of mass distraction has proven invaluable as a means to divert and deflect our gaze away from the 40 years of neoliberalism that has caused untold damage at home and abroad.

Be honest with yourselves........... did any democratic government over this period differ that much from the Republican ones ? It's the same here too . The choice between different factions of the Business Party is what democracy actually is in our countries.

Look at the voting for wars............. did you see a marked difference on one side over the other in the key decisions ?

Did outsourcing of jobs to other countries stop or even decline that much under one or the other ?

We might feel better thinking we are part of a broader group and it is a human norm to do so imo .......... be that a Leftist , Rightist , Democrat/Republican , Tory/Labour............ but stand back and see if you can realy squeeze a piece of paper through that gap.

Left/Right , Black/White , national/immigrant all can and have been exploited so that we turn against eachother, leaving the rich corporate elites to consolidate their wealth and power.

Are Leftists really all alike , are Right wingers ?

I think it's a game and we are all being played. Then you see every thread here descend almost immediately into a partisan **** storm and you think............ the corporate elites must be laughing their heads off at everyone.

I consider myself to be of the Left which might sound contradictory wrt the above but only because I share views that are predominently associated with the Left throughout history. But the time has come imo for people to stand back and see just what they are hanging their colours on and whether their view of themselves and their ideological preferences is blinding them from the elephant in the room that is the corporate takeover of society behind the scenes. Or that they might have much more in common with those they are arguing with than those they are supporting in the political sphere.

It's all worth thinking about imo

oneworld2 said:

You are being played just as we are being played in the UK

We live in plutocracies which is the term used to describe..... rule by the wealthy

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Right...so which side is giving massive tax cuts to the wealthy and deregulating big business? The Right in this country is pitting racist middle class white Christians against poor minorities, Muslims and gay people. Both sides aren't playing this game. It is exclusively being fueled by the right.

Yep, as long as the sheeple feel like they have some say in the political process then they keep hoping for change. Meanwhile, the rich buy political power just like any other commodity.

MrWonka said:

Right...so which side is giving massive tax cuts to the wealthy and deregulating big business? The Right in this country is pitting racist middle class white Christians against poor minorities, Muslims and gay people. Both sides aren't playing this game. It is exclusively being fueled by the right.

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The Right just so happen to be in power is the obvious answer.

Did Democrats not deregulate or look afetr the rich during their turn , when the voters voted in Tweedledee instead of Tweedledum ?

.. did any democratic government over this period differ that much from the Republican ones ?

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Yes.
Sorry yours doesn't.

The idea that a Warren or Bernie would not work to reduce the effects of the wealthy on government, as compared to the average Republican, is absurd.
Trump's premier legislation signed as soon as they got in power with all Republicans was tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations.

What more do you need? A big NEON sign? This whole "it's the system" is a normal feeling, but it's because it's complex, and average folk like to simplify. And we're all pretty average when it comes to our understanding of the size and complexity of the entirety of our government.

MrWonka said:

Right...so which side is giving massive tax cuts to the wealthy and deregulating big business? The Right in this country is pitting racist middle class white Christians against poor minorities, Muslims and gay people. Both sides aren't playing this game. It is exclusively being fueled by the right.

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Nonsense, those tax laws with special perks for (certain) businesses and for "the rich" for are largely left in place even when the "other side" gets (back) into power. Both "sides" grow the power and expense of the federal government - they simply make slight changes in priorities from time to time. To assert that the left does not play "identity politics" is absurd - your entire post wreaks of it.

ttwtt78640 said:

Yep, as long as the sheeple feel like they have some say in the political process then they keep hoping for change. Meanwhile, the rich buy political power just like any other commodity.

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I agree and would just say it's getting harder for them to hide the fact so the political scene is turned into a more bizarre show. We had the first black American president. Did he not win , or his campaign not win , an award for its marketing strategy ? Did his corporate backers not get people into his government ? Did they not also bankroll his opponent ? Was there really a change ? Did he not escalate the Bush drone war ? Did whistle blowers suffer more under his tenure than the previous one regardless of the Chelsea Manning stuff at the end ?

Was the plan then to give up the first woman president ? A tangible progress or just more of the same but wearing a skirt instead of trousers ?

It goes on and on with no marked difference and people seem to me to be blissfully unaware/indifferent so long as they have " the other " to try to blame everything on.

Mach said:

The idea that a Warren or Bernie would not work to reduce the effects of the wealthy on government, as compared to the average Republican, is absurd.
.

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Did you notice how Bernie got stuffed by his own precisely so that danger was averted ?

oneworld2 said:

I agree and would just say it's getting harder for them to hide the fact so the political scene is turned into a more bizarre show. We had the first black American president. Did he not win , or his campaign not win , an award for its marketing strategy ? Did his corporate backers not get people into his government ? Did they not also bankroll his opponent ? Was there really a change ? Did he not escalate the Bush drone war ? Did whistle blowers suffer more under his tenure than the previous one regardless of the Chelsea Manning stuff at the end ?

Was the plan then to give up the first woman president ? A tangible progress or just more of the same but wearing a skirt instead of trousers ?

It goes on and on with no marked difference and people seem to me to be blissfully unaware/indifferent so long as they have " the other " to try to blame everything on.

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Hmm... I guess you missed that promised "fundamental transformation of America" under Obama too.

We did get a lot more public debt, 98.6% of the same federal income tax rates and more public subsidies for the 'private' insurance industry.

oneworld2 said:

Did you notice how Bernie got stuffed by his own precisely so that danger was averted ?

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Sounds conspiracy theoryish.
Bernie has a lot of other issues both with Democrats in a primary, and Democrat concerns for the general, that make him not an ideal candidate for many in the Democratic party.

ttwtt78640 said:

Hmm... I guess you missed that promised "fundamental transformation of America" under Obama too.

We did get a lot more public debt, 98.6% of the same federal income tax rates and more public subsidies for the 'private' insurance industry.

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I don't mean to have a pop at Obama personally btw

His motto as I recall was for change but was there really a tangible change that people sould see/feel ? I listed just some of what was just more of the same under Obama after the often times embarrassing leadership of Bush 2.

oneworld2 said:

I don't mean to have a pop at Obama personally btw

His motto as I recall was for change but was there really a tangible change that people sould see/feel ? I listed just some of what was just more of the same under Obama after the often times embarrassing leadership of Bush 2.

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As did I, but tossed in his "prime legislative achievement" - PPACA.

ttwtt78640 said:

Hmm... I guess you missed that promised "fundamental transformation of America" under Obama too.

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He had what, one year of Democratic control before Republicans took the House? By the second term, House and Senate opposed?
Same with Trump, he won't pass much big legislation after his tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations that you benefited from(!oops) because Democrats took back the house and are busy passing stuff that Mitch won't even take a vote on.
He'll just get Kurds killed, push the g7 to his own resort, his kids are hard at work gaining wealth and influence via government...you know...real transformation for the nation right?

Have to take all three to move anything, because we no longer work bi-partisan. A win during a Democratic president, many Republicans believe, hurts Republicans. You know, party over nation.

MrWonka said:

Right...so which side is giving massive tax cuts to the wealthy and deregulating big business? The Right in this country is pitting racist middle class white Christians against poor minorities, Muslims and gay people. Both sides aren't playing this game. It is exclusively being fueled by the right.

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Nobody gave "massive tax cuts" to anyone. Tax brackets were adjusted by a few percentage points. Capping the deduction for state and local taxes impacted the wealthy far more than anyone else; doubling the Earned Income Tax Credit benefited the lowest earners. Reducing corporate taxes increased jobs and lowered unemployment to record lows. Oh, and more people formerly in the "Middle class" moved up. Anyone with a retirement plan or account saw it grow tremendously. Companies increased their minimum salaries willingly and many increased benefits such as educational assistance.

Mach said:

Sounds conspiracy theoryish.
Bernie has a lot of other issues both with Democrats in a primary, and Democrat concerns for the general, that make him not an ideal candidate for many in the Democratic party.

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I am not saying you don't get genuine people with genuine intentions to honour their quests/pledges in the political field. What I am saying is that the real power is in the invisible hands of the rich that bankroll the whole shebang. And that should any wouldbe challenger get through to anywhere near such a high position they would knoble them, as the DNC did with Bernie. Like they are doing with others that pose a threat and don't come from the rich elite themselves.

If you want to believe it is all conspiracy well that's fine with me............... if you can point to a change in government that drastically impacted on the rich and powerful over the last 40 years or so it would do your claim some good imo but my suspicion is that you won't be able to

oneworld2 said:

I am not saying you don't get genuine people with genuine intentions to honour their quests/pledges in the political field. What I am saying is that the real power is in the invisible hands of the rich that bankroll the whole shebang. And that should any wouldbe challenger get through to anywhere near such a high position they would knoble them, as the DNC did with Bernie. Like they are doing with others that pose a threat and don't come from the rich elite themselves.

If you want to believe it is all conspiracy well that's fine with me............... if you can point to a change in government that drastically impacted on the rich and powerful over the last 40 years or so it would do your claim some good imo but my suspicion is that you won't be able to

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I agree with the general idea that the wealthy control an incredibly disproportionate amount of government policy and political messaging.
In the U.S., much of that is concentrated in the right wing, the Republican party, most important as related to passing pro-corporate/wealthy policy.

Look at chamber of commerce.
Look at how Republican candidates are funded vs the top Democrats.
Look at the lead policy agenda of Democrats vs Republicans.

There is a drive to push more moderate candidates in the general, but that's not because of plutocracy per say, that's about electability.

We do have some issues...our winner take all system causes issues related to all-or-nothing politics rather than bi-partisan.

Anyway, Warren's #1 issue is money in politics/corruption, and there is no reason she cannot win the primary today.

Mach said:

I agree with the general idea that the wealthy control an incredibly disproportionate amount of government policy and political messaging.
In the U.S., much of that is concentrated in the right wing, the Republican party, most important as related to passing pro-corporate/wealthy policy.

Look at chamber of commerce.
Look at how Republican candidates are funded vs the top Democrats.
Look at the lead policy agenda of Democrats vs Republicans.

There is a drive to push more moderate candidates in the general, but that's not because of plutocracy per say, that's about electability.

We do have some issues...our winner take all system causes issues related to all-or-nothing politics rather than bi-partisan.

Anyway, Warren's #1 issue is money in politics/corruption, and there is no reason she cannot win the primary today.

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I know you are aware of the huge rich elite that are behind the scenes and how much power they weild but I just think it is even worse than you imagine it is.

I agree that many/most of the mega rich support/are republicans and I agree there are often stated and noticeable departures on policy but to me the crux is what happens when they get into power.

Recall Obamas attacks on corporate America and those that supported the bank bail out etc and then see what happened when he actually got into office, his economic crew were Wall Street Bankers.

Barack Obama ran for president as a man of the people, standing up to Wall Street as the global economy melted down in that fateful fall of 2008. He pushed a tax plan to soak the rich, ripped NAFTA for hurting the middle class and tore into John McCain for supporting a bankruptcy bill that sided with wealthy bankers "at the expense of hardworking Americans." Obama may not have run to the left of Samuel Gompers or Cesar Chavez, but it's not like you saw him on the campaign trail flanked by bankers from Citigroup and Goldman Sachs. What inspired supporters who pushed him to his historic win was the sense that a genuine outsider was finally breaking into an exclusive club, that walls were being torn down, that things were, for lack of a better or more specific term, changing.

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Obama's Big Sellout: The President has Packed His Economic Team with Wall Street Insiders | Common Dreams News

My feeling is that should Warren make it through the net and into a position to actually do what she claims to aim to do she will be stopped using whatever means necessary. I will guarantee you she won't be allowed do it. It's not she isn't genuine or committed , she just won't be allowed to rock the boat and/or undermine that rich elite

oneworld2 said:

I know you are aware of the huge rich elite that are behind the scenes and how much power they weild but I just think it is even worse than you imagine it is.

I agree that many/most of the mega rich support/are republicans and I agree there are often stated and noticeable departures on policy but to me the crux is what happens when they get into power.
Recall Obamas attacks on corporate America and those that supported the bank bail out etc and then see what happened when he actually got into office, his economic crew were Wall Street Bankers.

Click to expand...

I suspect the reason we HAD a market crash like that was primarily due to pro-corporate/wealthy money in politics...but once it starts to crash, the stepping in to fix it was made for an entirely different reason. Tied at the hip. Most any elected official should have made the same choice. But that's another story.

Obama's Big Sellout: The President has Packed His Economic Team with Wall Street Insiders | Common Dreams News

My feeling is that should Warren make it through the net and into a position to actually do what she claims to aim to do she will be stopped using whatever means necessary. I will guarantee you she won't be allowed do it. It's not she isn't genuine or committed , she just won't be allowed to rock the boat and/or undermine that rich elite

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That may be the case. But I think we've made a lot of progress over the past 100 years. It does take longer than it feels like it should...decades rather than a year, 40 years vs 5 years, etc. But such is the nature of Democracy right? Slow to change.

Mach said:

I suspect the reason we HAD a market crash like that was primarily due to pro-corporate/wealthy money in politics...but once it starts to crash, the stepping in to fix it was made for an entirely different reason. Tied at the hip. Most any elected official should have made the same choice. But that's another story.

That may be the case. But I think we've made a lot of progress over the past 100 years. It does take longer than it feels like it should...decades rather than a year, 40 years vs 5 years, etc. But such is the nature of Democracy right? Slow to change.

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It's late here mate and I am really tired so will pick this up with you again tomorrow , thx for the feedback/comments all good stuff , until tomorrow

Mach said:

He had what, one year of Democratic control before Republicans took the House? By the second term, House and Senate opposed?
Same with Trump, he won't pass much big legislation after his tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations that you benefited from(!oops) because Democrats took back the house and are busy passing stuff that Mitch won't even take a vote on.
He'll just get Kurds killed, push the g7 to his own resort, his kids are hard at work gaining wealth and influence via government...you know...real transformation for the nation right?

Have to take all three to move anything, because we no longer work bi-partisan. A win during a Democratic president, many Republicans believe, hurts Republicans. You know, party over nation.

Click to expand...

In other words, republicants holding federal office make you go:

MrWonka said:

Right...so which side is giving massive tax cuts to the wealthy and deregulating big business? The Right in this country is pitting racist middle class white Christians against poor minorities, Muslims and gay people. Both sides aren't playing this game. It is exclusively being fueled by the right.

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Incorrect. Both sides lie. Both sides cheat. Both sides work the tax laws to benefit their constituency. Both wave the flag when needed. Both play enraged when something happens.

Both.