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America Will Never Be A Socialist Country

No, I said you immediately went to great lengths to hedge on the definition you provided, which you have.

Keep at it, I guess. But don't lecture people on not knowing "what socialism really means" if you refuse to be pinned down as to what it "really means."

This merry-go-round ride is over now.

I know what it means, and the point of my post was the term will be used to scare people who probably do not know what it means. I explained it, you've yet to refute it.
 
For one thing, alcohol consumption is not necessarily harmful. In fact, moderate consumption can be beneficial.

But even more important, alcohol consumption is highly regulated. Your example supports my position

Well, I'm not so sure that it is. Alcohol production is highly regulated, certainly. Sales and distribution of alcohol is highly regulated as well. But once the alcohol leaves the store, the consumption of alcohol is one of the greatest blights of our society and accounts for the some of the highest counts of avoidable death. While it may have been reduced significantly over the past few decades, it is still a huge killer overall.

In addition, I would point out that we were not talking about necessarily banning substances/products which are known to be harmful. We were talking about the right to use/sell products whose safety, or lack thereof, is unknown. So I will repeat the question I asked earlier:

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I would argue that there is no right to conceal or withhold information regarding any known unsafe features of any product within the market, or something unsafe that a reasonably cautious and diligent merchant/manufacturer should have known about. And for those manufacturers who do put untested products in the market, they must make it clear that the product was untested and the risks that it could potentially pose, an let consumers weigh the pros and cons of buying the product. And if the product is unsafe, the manufacturer's ignorance or the buyer's willing risk would not protect them from product liability.

By what right, legal or moral, does a producer have to sell a product which puts both people and society at risk?

That is a very difficult question to answer, sangha. I do not think anyone has a right to put products into the market which they know could lead to harm and knowingly conceal the dangers from consumers. And I believe that manufacturers have a duty to tell potential consumers that their products are untested and might be unsafe. But I also know that even when every single danger presented by a product is made clear as day on the product itself, it does little to allay people who believe they will derive greater utility from the product that it is worth the risk.

The fact that there are several ways to achieve regulatory capture is not a reasonable argument for allowing one or more of the ways to continue.

Well, no. The reason I am against campaign finance reform has nothing to do with regulatory capture (although my reasoning for it is similar). The two reasons I am against campaign finance reform are thus: First, that I do not believe that the government should have any right to tell me (or anyone else for that matter) what I should be able to spend in support of a political candidate of my choosing, or how much I can spend on print, radio or internet advertisements on his or her behalf. That this may be abused by so-called "dark money" donors or moneyed interests is of little consequence to me because I realize that people who I do not like or with greater wherewithal (or both) must enjoy the same freedoms that I have if we are to have a truly free and law-governed society.

My second reason, and one that I consider just as important, is that I believe that campaign finance reform is simply another tool by which already existing incumbent power wishes to retrench and maintain itself. The wonderful thing about money is that it can be freely alienated. If you and I want to achieve a goal, but neither of us are particularly wealthy, we can band together and combine our financial resources to invest in a particular cause, and encourage others to join in with us. But once the government tells us that we cannot spend on a certain political cause, or committee, or for a particular candidate at a crucial time, we have essentially been robbed of our power and our voices. And whose benefit is that for exactly? Who stands to benefit other than the already-established and entrenched political powers and their gatekeepers?

You see, I completely understand the concerns that our politicians are being bought and paid for by our country's lobbyist and donor classes. That is a legitimate concern, mainly because we see it happening before our eyes within both political parties. However, the laws that would constrain the powerful with concentrated wealth and connections would be far more effective at constraining the weak and disparate. So I will take the status quo over what I see as a cynical power-play by the political gatekeepers who play on our sense of righteous indignation to allow them to attain even greater power and keep people out of the political process.

And I agree with the bolded.

Happy we could agree on that point.
 
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continued from my last post

That is a very difficult question to answer, sangha. I do not think anyone has a right to put products into the market which they know could lead to harm and knowingly conceal the dangers from consumers. And I believe that manufacturers have a duty to tell potential consumers that their products are untested and might be unsafe. But I also know that even when every single danger presented by a product is made clear as day on the product itself, it does little to allay people who believe they will derive greater utility from the product that it is worth the risk.

The fact that people will continue to purchase products that they know are risky, or even outright harmful, is not an argument for allowing businesses to sell such products. It is an argument for forbidding businesses from doing so.

So I am left still looking for a moral and legal justification for allowing businesses to put individuals and society at risk of harm



Well, no. The reason I am against campaign finance reform has nothing to do with regulatory capture (although my reasoning for it is similar). The two reasons I am against campaign finance reform are thus: First, that I do not believe that the government should have any right to tell me (or anyone else for that matter) what I should be able to spend in support of a political candidate of my choosing, or how much I can spend on print, radio or internet advertisements on his or her behalf. That this may be abused by so-called "dark money" donors or moneyed interests is of little consequence to me because I realize that people who I do not like or with greater wherewithal (or both) must enjoy the same freedoms that I have if we are to have a truly free and law-governed society.

If both you and the dark money donors are limited in what you can contribute, then you both will be enjoying the same freedoms
My second reason, and one that I consider just as important, is that I believe that campaign finance reform is simply another tool by which already existing incumbent power wishes to retrench and maintain itself. The wonderful thing about money is that it can be freely alienated. If you and I want to achieve a goal, but neither of us are particularly wealthy, we can band together and combine our financial resources to invest in a particular cause, and encourage others to join in with us. But once the government tells us that we cannot spend on a certain political cause, or committee, or for a particular candidate at a crucial time, we have essentially been robbed of our power and our voices. And whose benefit is that for exactly? Who stands to benefit other than the already-established and entrenched political powers and their gatekeepers?

I would argue that forbidding certain types of spending by organizations in no way limits the free speech of any person. It certainly limits organizations, but every person who is a member of that org would still have their right to speak, and to contribute to political campaigns.
You see, I completely understand the concerns that our politicians are being bought and paid for by our country's lobbyist and donor classes. That is a legitimate concern, mainly because we see it happening before our eyes within both political parties. However, the laws that would constrain the powerful with concentrated wealth and connections would be far more effective at constraining the weak and disparate. So I will take the status quo over what I see as a cynical power-play by the political gatekeepers who play on our sense of righteous indignation to allow them to attain even greater power and keep people out of the political process.

I would not be so quick to reject campaign finance reforms so categorically. The devil is in the details. For example, I do not see how reserving the right to contribute to political campaigns to real live, actual people would disempower them and empower the powerful interests
 
Our quality of care is higher and raises the standards around the world by making R&D profitable, better equipment available and more. There is a big reason 17 of the best 20 hospitals in the world are in the US and most of the best docs in the world run here as soon as they can after graduation to practice here.

Our quality of care is higher for SOME people... if you can pay the tremendous cost you get the care. Medicare/aid patients don't have access to the highest levels of treatment nor cutting edge treatments. You think those 'best docs in the world' are going to take my VA insurance??? Good or bad doctors flock here because here they can charge amazing prices for even simple procedures. It's a protected market. Hell bad doctors are simply shuttle around from hospital/state/practice for decades with no accountability.

Big Pharma and the medical industry would still be profitable IF the same competition that drives retail consumer goods was allowed to work. This isn't capitalism but rather a rigged game for protecting (and justifying) MASSIVE profits.

As an aside some of the biggest profits comes from the lowest cost products- the massive numbers of opioids sold in every state, often more than there are citizens of that state.

For most of us the quality of care would be higher if there was a massive overhaul of the healthcare industry. But those who are raking in massive profits are not about to agree to this... :peace
 
Well, I'm not so sure that it is. Alcohol production is highly regulated, certainly. Sales and distribution of alcohol is highly regulated as well. But once the alcohol leaves the store, the consumption of alcohol is one of the greatest blights of our society and accounts for the some of the highest counts of avoidable death. While it may have been reduced significantly over the past few decades, it is still a huge killer overall.

My talking about the regulation of alcohol consumption was a poor choice of words. After all, we are talking about the production and sales of products that contain substances that are not known to be safe --and tangentially about substances that are known to be unsafe. And so, while what you say above is true, the fact that the regulation of alcohol production and sales has contributed to a lessening of the harm alcohol consumption can lead to certainly reflects well on the potential for such regulations to benefit society, as well as individuals.

Ah, thank you for the clarification. I would argue that there is no right to conceal or withhold information regarding any known unsafe features of any product within the market, or something unsafe that a reasonably cautious and diligent merchant/manufacturer should have known about. And for those manufacturers who do put untested products in the market, they must make it clear that the product was untested and the risks that it could potentially pose, an let consumers weigh the pros and cons of buying the product. And if the product is unsafe, the manufacturer's ignorance or the buyer's willing risk would not protect them from product liability.

WRT the bolded bit, I agree and I believe that is basically the current state of the law. As for the rest of that paragraph, while it is good for people to have some recourse should they be harmed by a product, it still does not address the legal or moral basis that justifies a businesses right to put individuals and society at risk of harm.

...continued
 
The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.
It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.
It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.

That last line is slightly suspect but I'm going to like it anyway, with this addendum :

Our Democratic Party, like the other major party, has gone through quite a few tectonic shifts over a century or more, but in the recent modern era starting about eighty some years ago it is true that the Democrats began to get inspiration from Franklin Delano Roosevelt and saw fit to strive to further values he helped to implement. Along the way we experienced further growing pains, gained new friends and lost some old ones.
Some of the latter were fit to lose, some of the former aren't worth a damn. The process continues today.
May we continue to strive for better.

PS: Love your line about "Fox News Socialism". I think you may have just coined something. May I borrow it? Will you allow it to go viral?
 
All the more evidence that no one knows what socialism really means, but the term is sure going to be used to frighten people.

Hadrian nailed it when he mentioned "Fox News Socialism" because in this country, apparently Fox News is the only entity allowed to define socialism, thus just about anything that frightens or confuses Fox News is ..... socialism.
 
Our quality of care is higher and raises the standards around the world by making R&D profitable

Yachts for CEO's along with inflated salaries and giant dividends for stockholders do not fuel research and development. Further to that point, a large part of research and development is in fact bankrolled by taxpayers through universities...oh and...even a couple of government agencies.

We do make some sacrifices in return for being the best at many many things. It's hard to find the balance.

The definition of "we" is both fluid and suspect. There is an incredibly large "we" composed of the most needy and the most vulnerable who will only dream of the great strides and advances you speak of, as they prepare to die, often needlessly and prematurely, in the richest country on Earth.

Hard to find the balance? Yes, when raw naked greed has its thumb on the scales, balance is a sick joke.
When raw naked power is gatekeeper to said scales, the laughter stops abruptly.
I don't hear anyone laughing.
 
Our quality of care is higher for SOME people... if you can pay the tremendous cost you get the care. Medicare/aid patients don't have access to the highest levels of treatment nor cutting edge treatments. You think those 'best docs in the world' are going to take my VA insurance??? Good or bad doctors flock here because here they can charge amazing prices for even simple procedures. It's a protected market. Hell bad doctors are simply shuttle around from hospital/state/practice for decades with no accountability.

True that government Healthcare (va) is a considerably lover quality of care. No reason to compete for lowest pay.

False that docs get away with listed problems. Having had to go through the process of getting privileges for docs at 3 accredited hospitals and a private practice, I'm well acquainted with the extensive checks required. Full background, malpractice checks, 3 peer letters, etc etc etc.

Big Pharma and the medical industry would still be profitable IF the same competition that drives retail consumer goods was allowed to work. This isn't capitalism but rather a rigged game for protecting (and justifying) MASSIVE profits.

Yes, when government pay freezes created fringe benefits and that changed the market and ruined supply demand and accountability, we paid a heavy price.

As an aside some of the biggest profits comes from the lowest cost products- the massive numbers of opioids sold in every state, often more than there are citizens of that state.

Only point to question here is why something prescribed up to 10 per day per patient should be compared to number of people in a state.

For most of us the quality of care would be higher if there was a massive overhaul of the healthcare industry. But those who are raking in massive profits are not about to agree to this... :peace

Actually, most would love it as long as we weren't having it handled by the folks who brought us medicaid, vq, aca, department of education, social security and a thousand other failed prpgrams
 
That last line is slightly suspect but I'm going to like it anyway, with this addendum :

Our Democratic Party, like the other major party, has gone through quite a few tectonic shifts over a century or more, but in the recent modern era starting about eighty some years ago it is true that the Democrats began to get inspiration from Franklin Delano Roosevelt and saw fit to strive to further values he helped to implement. Along the way we experienced further growing pains, gained new friends and lost some old ones.
Some of the latter were fit to lose, some of the former aren't worth a damn. The process continues today.
May we continue to strive for better.

PS: Love your line about "Fox News Socialism". I think you may have just coined something. May I borrow it? Will you allow it to go viral?

Use "Fox News Socialism" as you see fit. I'm happy to spread the word on that.
 
The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.
It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.
It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.

It is not up to the government to mandate how much vacation time, sick leave, or family leave employees get. That's socialism. Most all businesses in the US are mom and pops, not Microsofts, Walmarts, or Goldman Sachs.
 
The President announced in his State of the Union speech last night that America will never be a Socialist country. That was well said as long as one differentiates between the text book definition of Socialism and the Fox News definition of Socialism.
It is not Socialist to give your working class four weeks of vacation by law. Every country in Europe does this. That doesn't include legal holidays.
It is not Socialist to give your working class sick leave by law. Europe does this.
It is not Socialist to give employees paid family leave. Europe does this.

It appears that Fox News gets to define Socialism as anything that would make employee lives better at a cost.
Europe has many political parties and one of them is Social Democrats. Social Democrats are what our Democratic party was before the lobbyists corrupted them.

He also announced in his latest rally (El Paso?) that he would never sign a bill to release dangerous criminal into society.
The guy's a complete buffoon.

Trump- "I'll never allow the Democrats to shoot down Santa Claus!"
Trumpanzees- "Yay! Hurray! You the man!"
Trump- "I'll never sign a bill allowing Cuban soldiers to occupy the Rose Garden!"
Trumpanzees- "Alright! We love you, Donald! You saving the USA from socialism!"
 
It is not up to the government to mandate how much vacation time, sick leave, or family leave employees get. That's socialism.

Socialism is when the businesses in a country are run by the government or worker collectives. The policies you listed are not socialistic. In fact, the modern welfare state was created by the intensely conservative Otto von Bismarck in Germany to take the appeal away from socialism and communism. When people's basic needs are met, they tend to shun radical political ideologies. If the United States' Republican Party was so concerned about socialism they'd enact some social democratic reforms to take care of people.
 
Socialism is when the businesses in a country are run by the government or worker collectives. The policies you listed are not socialistic. In fact, the modern welfare state was created by the intensely conservative Otto von Bismarck in Germany to take the appeal away from socialism and communism. When people's basic needs are met, they tend to shun radical political ideologies. If the United States' Republican Party was so concerned about socialism they'd enact some social democratic reforms to take care of people.

Your post has nothing to do with the subject. Government mandating to businesses what they can and cannot do is socialism.
 
Your post has nothing to do with the subject. Government mandating to businesses what they can and cannot do is socialism.

Socialism, by definition, is when the government or worker collectives run the businesses in a country. Government telling businesses what they can and cannot do is not socialism (if it was, the United States has very socialist for a very, very long time), it is just common-sense capitalism. Businesses and whatnot remain in private hands.
 
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