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Democrats are blowing the Shut-Down

Praxas said:
And that proves me right, it was no where NEAR the scope, cost and length of the wall Trump wants. So what exactly are you saying?
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No it doesn’t. Trump is only asking for $5 billion. The Democrats were willing and advocated to commit $6 billion just 5 years ago.
 
ALL budget discussions in congress come down to compromises on funding different projects. Considering democrats refuse to negotiate on an item that they themselves have both touted AND voted for in the past on numerous occasions, its impossible to avoid the reality of who still owns the shut down.
 
Napoleon said:
No it doesn’t. Trump is only asking for $5 billion. The Democrats were willing and advocated to commit $6 billion just 5 years ago.
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Why didn't the GOP house provide the funding when they had control?

Why does Trump only do this the moment the Dems are set to take power?



Doesn't take a genius to work out the real "why". You lot just love the show. You want to waste a pile of money on a wall. Even if it were 100% effective - and it will never be - it would only target 25% of current illegal immigrants. Of course, things like ropes, ladders, shovels, and the like have existed for thousands of years. And of course if that path really was shut down, they'd just find another.

You are advocating for the dumbest possible way to address illegal immigration. You choose that route because you know you're least likely to get it and if you get it it won't solve the problem, so you will always be able to wield it as a red meat issue against the Dems.....


...Mr. "liberal" lean. :roll:
 
Mr Person said:
Why didn't the GOP house provide the funding when they had control?

Why does Trump only do this the moment the Dems are set to take power?



Doesn't take a genius to work out the real "why". You lot just love the show. You want to waste a pile of money on a wall. Even if it were 100% effective - and it will never be - it would only target 25% of current illegal immigrants. Of course, things like ropes, ladders, shovels, and the like have existed for thousands of years. And of course if that path really was shut down, they'd just find another.

You are advocating for the dumbest possible way to address illegal immigration. You choose that route because you know you're least likely to get it and if you get it it won't solve the problem, so you will always be able to wield it as a red meat issue against the Dems.....


...Mr. "liberal" lean. :roll:
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I’m not advocating for this to solve for illegal immigration. I’m advocating for this to solve for humanitarian issues created by exploitation of gaps in the barrier. It doesn’t matter why the GOP didn’t do it. What matters is that Trump wants it regardless of what Republicans or Democrats think. Just because you can’t solve for every possible scenario doesn’t mean you shouldn’t solve for any scenario. The gaps in the existing barrier are one such scenario easily solved for. People can maneuver around it, but they’re no longer going to be led through a gaping hole by a predatory smuggler to be left to die in the Sonora Desert by the hundreds every year.

I don’t care why Trump wants it. The fact is the need to complete this barrier doesn’t have an existential dependency on Donald Trump’s opinion of Mexicans. That’s why Democrats supported and advocated to do just that for over 20 years before people suddenly developed selective amnesia about that fact.
 
I have been hearing stories about how it hurts the workers AND about how it hurts the important work they do, like aircraft inspections and food safety inspections and e-verify functioning and airport terminals closing due to lack of TSA personnel...
 
Praxas said:
In this case it is true. McConnell won't even bring to the floor a vote on a bill TRUMP doesn't approve of and TRUMP only wants a wall because he touted it for 2.5 years and said Mexico will pay for it. This is what is called, holding an elected official accountable for their words and actions. I know it must be foreign to you, but tough ****. This is Trump's shutdown and even the majority of American people are seeing it that way. Republicans are shooting their own foot and 2020 is around the corner.
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Why waste time putting senators on record for a vote that wont pass.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
https://theweek.com/articles/816867/how-lose-shutdown-showdown

This is of course correct, but then again the Democrats have long proven that they can bungle anything.... competence is not their thing.
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Yes in Trump's world any display of empathy shows weakness. We all need to get in line and stop caring about our fellow man like Trump does. Forget all the BS about America being the "conscience of the world" we are now nothing but cut throat scam artists who care only about ourselves. Trump will be our role model.:lamo
 
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chuckiechan said:
Why waste time putting senators on record for a vote that wont pass.
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So its about "wasting time" is it? That must be the most foolish thing I have ever heard. What is Congress doing in their 4 day work week that is more important that opening the govt.?
 
chuckiechan said:
Why waste time putting senators on record for a vote that wont pass.
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We are seeing senators dissenting already, let it go for a vote and if it passes then put it on Trump.

funny though you cons had no problem with putting to vote to repeal the ACA how many times? Like 80 almost?
 
OlNate said:
I think their judgement is spot on.

If you went to the garage to get your muffler fixed, and they try to sell you a new engine, would you go for it? That's what this wall is - an expensive "solution" that won't fix the problem. Why should anyone spend money on that?
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Please step up and think bigger....we desperately need people who can THINK BIGGER.

Selling Victim Culture yet again is a bore, and somebody needs to step up and start talking about how important the process is, and how important it is that we do it well, and how thoroughly we are ****ing ourselves by not working together to get the work donewhen we already suck ass at getting things done at all much less well.

Now I know that the D's cant do all of that, my God they really suck, but they could put in an effort.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
https://theweek.com/articles/816867/how-lose-shutdown-showdown

This is of course correct, but then again the Democrats have long proven that they can bungle anything.... competence is not their thing.
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The author makes some excellent points about how the Dems could get maximum value out of the shutdown, but the differences between what he proposes (talk about the great work being done by federal workers that are not working) and what is being done (focused on the individual hardships incurred) is pretty nuanced. To suggest that the Dems are blowing it by doing the latter rather than the former is way, way overstating things. To date, the Dems are winning the shutdown debate largely because Trump blew it by taking the blame in advance and then welching on the deal he had with Senate Republicans.

If Trump were smart, and he is not, he would have signed on for the 60 day CR and used the time to position the Dems to be the new fall guys. That likely would not have worked except that he could have muddied the waters and distanced himself from that damaging video when he said he would be proud to shut it down.

So interesting article, but I for one (and most Americans) don't buy the fundamental premise.
 
chuckiechan said:
Why waste time putting senators on record for a vote that wont pass.
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Actually, if the bill passes, it would not be a waste of time, it would be a waste of Trump. It would clearly put pressure on Trump and park the blame with him. By McConnell not taking the bill to the floor, he now has some ownership.
 
trixare4kids said:
They're not doing just fine in the polls.
Anywhere from 31% to 35% blame congressional Democrats.
The majority do blame Trump though possibly because he admitted he owns it?
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31-35%. In other words, a little less than the percentage that comprises trump’s base.

Think about that.
 
chuckiechan said:
"It's Trump's fault" has pretty much lost it's sting, when Trump is blamed for everything under the sun.
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You must have missed the part when Trump himself said he was to blame for the current situation.
 
chuckiechan said:
"It's Trump's fault" has pretty much lost it's sting, when Trump is blamed for everything under the sun.
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Except...not. Trump and Congressional Republicans are receiving most of the blame for the shutdown. Apparently, lying about the wall issue every step of the way and then taking full ownership of the shutdown didn't help their cause.
 
iguanaman said:
So its about "wasting time" is it? That must be the most foolish thing I have ever heard. What is Congress doing in their 4 day work week that is more important that opening the govt.?
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The Senate won't vote on a bill that won't pass, and they won't pass a bill that the Prez won't sign.

Simple politics.
 
chuckiechan said:
The Senate won't vote on a bill that won't pass, and they won't pass a bill that the Prez won't sign.

Simple politics.
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which is why the Senate voted scores of times to repeal Obamacare while Obama was president.

It passed every time and Obama signed every repeal
 
Napoleon said:
This is only about politics not a demonstrable need for the same barrier extension Democrats advocated for 5 years ago.
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They didn't, but you'll keep pushing this nonsense talking point on every thread apparently. :roll:
 
Napoleon said:
The Democrats introduced and advocated for the passage of a bill that granted $4.5 billion to DHS for the express purpose of implementing border control strategy including barrier extension plus an additional $1.5 billion to be allocated specifically for the purpose of barrier extension in the Tucson, Rio Grande and Laredo sectors. So why are you lying?
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McConnell can bring that bill in its entirety up for a vote, get it passed with an agreement from Trump to sign it and you'll have a decent point. In the meantime, separating one part of a bill and ignoring all the rest is just mindless drivel.
 
In a way I agree with the OP. It has been lost in the news cycle that the idea of building one big wall is not supported by most security experts. When democrats argue that workers are being hurt they are unintentionally ceding ground on that issue. Not only is this harmful for hundreds of thousands of government employees, but it truly is just a vanity project. There needs to be more focus on legitimate border security and more effort put into not allowing Trump to pretend like this is a moral battle. He is very good at turning the conversation away from the ineffectiveness of the wall and democrats can't allow that to happen.
 
chuckiechan said:
The Senate won't vote on a bill that won't pass, and they won't pass a bill that the Prez won't sign.

Simple politics.
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Because McConnell has forgotten that the Senate is a coequal branch of Govt. not a part of the executive.
 
Praxas said:
Oh it's clear Trump doesn't care about the right things. If he wanted to REALLY combat illegal immigration he would have been pushing for E-Verify to be mandated and employers to get heavy crushing fines for violations.
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How is that going to work when you libs love your sanctuary cities and states? Christ you harbor illegals thus the illegals come running to your sanctuaries to be protected. And then you have to take care of them with finding them jobs, hell the illegals have to work in your sanctuaries, and you have to provide food stamps, health care, housing, a cell phone, etc etc. to keep the illegal population working and taken care of.

The Dems are right that Trump manufactured a "fake" crisis and they are right in fighting this.
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That is exactly why you liberals have your sanctuaries, to protect the illegals and all the illegal criminals.

So yeah, it DOES matter who is to blame and the people will hold Trump and the Republicans accountable for it in 2020.
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Your idea of illegal aliens is you protect them with your sanctuaries, and you don't want a wall to assist from keeping illegals out of our country. Instead you want a LINE IN THE SAND instead of a wall so that all your illegals and illegal criminals can just walk over the line in the sand instead of having to work to get over a barrier. Thousands of illegals and illegal criminals an rush over your line in the sand without apprehension.
 
trixare4kids said:
They're not doing just fine in the polls.
Anywhere from 31% to 35% blame congressional Democrats.
The majority do blame Trump though possibly because he admitted he owns it?
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Really? 35% of Americans approve of a President shutting down the government to make Congress fund his project?
What a bizarre take on how government should work.
 
trixare4kids said:
They're not doing just fine in the polls.
Anywhere from 31% to 35% blame congressional Democrats.
The majority do blame Trump though possibly because he admitted he owns it?
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Interestingly I saw a poll by the wapo posted here that it's about 50% that say trump should be given funding for the wall. That in includes people who dont think a wall is the right solution. That is a number that should concern democrats.

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