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Thread: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

  1. #21
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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Israel's wall is 440 miles. The U.S. Mexican border is 2500 miles, and the logistics, not to mention the cost are a nightmare. You can't compare the two.

    Why don't we just fine the piss out of employers and jail them if they hire illegals? We could even make money from it! You know the KISS principal!
    Unless you plan on fining people no matter what then simply fining employers is not going to work. Right now the only way an employer gets fined is if it can be proven that they knowingly hired an illegal. Which is the right thing to do since illegal aliens use illegal documents that the employer may not know is illegal but they do look legit. I'm all for increasing that fine. I have also advocated for prison time and loss of business license. But proven that they have knowingly hired an illegal alien is not as easy as it sounds. Unless you have documents/evidence or witnesses proving it then it's next to impossible.

    But simply fining employers is not enough. Especially when you have sanctuary cities an states obstructing investigations by refusing to cooperate. A lot needs to be done to make it to where life in the US for a person here illegally is simply not worth it. Such work is going to take time. Lots of it. Especially with how partisan and greedy our politicians are. In the mean time, a wall will help.

    In order to slow illegal immigration down to a trickle (with or without a wall) things are going to have to be done that many simply do not want to happen.

    1: Birthright citizenship for those here illegally HAS to end. This can be done either through an amendment or through interpreting the 14th Amendment citizenship clause the way it was originally meant to be interpreted. Which is as applying only to those here legally and not of ambassadorial status. As the author of the 14th Amendment argued for. This can still be done as the Ark case was about someone who was born here while his parents were here legally. It never actually addressed those here illegally. No other country allows birth right citizenship for those illegally in their borders that I know of.

    2: As you have already suggested, fine the hell out of employers that hire illegal aliens. Keep the "knowingly hired" bit though as an illegal using fake documents or stolen identities is not the employers fault. Additionally loss of business license, liquidation of business assets to pay for the fine, and prison time.

    3: Institute mandatory e-verify for everything from employment, to buying a car, to getting a bank account, sending money another country, renting/buying a place to live, and getting a license to start/run a business.

    4: Require every school to report any child that is not in the US legally and/or their parents/guardians. Being as SCOTUS ruled such a violation of the Constitution an amendment may be needed.

    Do you see any of those as being easy to implement? Or not taking lots of time to implement? I sure don't. Which means in the mean time....a wall to help. A wall can eventually be torn down when it is no longer needed. But until such time as its not needed its better than what we currently have.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 12-25-18 at 11:21 PM.

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Most Americans do not see a need for a border wall. There is no evidence it will be effective. There is little justification for the building and maintenance of such a structure. The fencing and security that currently exist have enjoyed strong bipartisan support. But Trump supporters seem dead set on forcing the other two thirds of Americans to believe the idea that this wall is essential. That there is a crisis of some sort without it. That we need 10,000 military troops there rather than 2,000 troops in Syria because the threat is so dire.

    You aren't selling the wall to the rest of America. You are imposing it on us. You go down this road, then if you manage to get it built I could see it being torn down by your fellow Americans the next time the pendulum swings.

    Here is your chance. Produce a coherent, rational, and evidence-based argument for this wall. Not the emotional tripe, but something actually based in fact. Convert some people to your cause since you seem to believe the wall is a worthy project.
    Just killed your post with this misstatement: "There is no evidence it will be effective." This is absolutely false!!
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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by lurchadams View Post
    It panders to his isolationist base. Some know that it really won't prevent the inflow of illegals but they like the fact that it's a giant "middle finger" to brown people.

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    Keeping his word on a promise that people clearly cared about and thus formed part of the foundation for why we voted for him, which created a mandate.

    ....

    Except he is not keeping his word. His word was that taxpayers would not have to pay for the wall. Now he is blackmailing our representatives, saying that government will stay shut down if our representatives do not take our money to pay for the wall.

    That is the opposite of keeping his promise. That is the opposite of his mandate.

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beaudreaux View Post
    The answer to that question is simple: As Obama said, elections have consequences, and Trump was elected on (among other things) building the wall.

    I didn't vote for him, and would love to see Trump out of office as quickly as possible... however, on the issue of a border barrier (wall, fence, etc.), I support its completion and augmenting it with tech and human resources. The Democrats will find out that they are on the wrong side of history on this one.

    Trump was elected on saying the wall would be built but with a promise that taxpayers would not have to pay for it.

    Now he is blackmailing us and saying that government will be shut down if we don't pay for the wall that he said we wouldn't have to pay for.

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Adverse View Post
    However, whenever I see an argument against the wall that starts with "There is no evidence it will be effective" I have to laugh at this fallacious point.

    The fact is we are literally surrounded by walls in our everyday lives, and they prove their effectiveness by preventing and/or channeling access to whatever space is being walled in.

    Of course no wall is going to be 100% effective as a stand alone defense. If there is something inside worth it to someone breaking in for, then the wall/barrier will also need dedicated defenses.

    In normal life it would be security guards, police, soldiers, automated systems, or in the case of a homeowner that person themselves.

    So arguing that no wall is 100% effective is disingenuous. Walls work as they are designed to, and if well defended then they work even better.

    As for why one would want a wall along the borderline? For the same reasons any wall has been built, to prevent anyone not allowed from entering the premises without permission.
    All that typing and the only thing you managed was to make a bunch of assertions without a stitch of evidence to support it. Congratulations, it's hard to write that much without actually saying anything.

    Please provide a reputable study showing that spending $5b on a small portion of Trump's wall is a cost effective strategy to limit illegal immigration and/or limit the drug trade. Also what will the yearly maintenance cost be for this wall?

    LOL, IMO we both know the "stable genius" businessman couldn't write a business plan for the wall if he was paid a billion dollars to do it. There is no plan, nobody has a clue what's going on, and you're asking for $5b as an homage to your cult leader.
    Last edited by JustHanging; 12-25-18 at 11:59 PM.
    Jeez, did you do really do something that stupid? You were as Dumb As Donald!

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amelia View Post
    Trump was elected on saying the wall would be built but with a promise that taxpayers would not have to pay for it.

    Now he is blackmailing us and saying that government will be shut down if we don't pay for the wall that he said we wouldn't have to pay for.
    Yes, he's put his cult into a rather uncomfortable position of either admitting that Trump flimflammed them, or delude themselves and pretend Trump never promised Mexico was going to pay for the wall. I suspect the self delusion will continue for at least a few more months.
    Jeez, did you do really do something that stupid? You were as Dumb As Donald!

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Israel's wall is 440 miles. The U.S. Mexican border is 2500 miles, and the logistics, not to mention the cost are a nightmare. You can't compare the two.

    Why don't we just fine the piss out of employers and jail them if they hire illegals? We could even make money from it! You know the KISS principal!
    There is no proposal for a barrier the entire border. There currently is 653 miles of border barrier - basically steel walls or steel slat fence. The Trump wall would increase this to no more than 900 miles. Well over half of the border has prohibitive physical barriers or barren distance obstacles. Democrats - and specifically Pelosi and Schumer voted for the 653 miles of the current border walls, giving speeches how critical this was to the USA - which also is what President Obama gave speeches for. .

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17 View Post
    At one time I could have agreed with you. But now that the USA has elected a blatantly racist POTUS like Trump, possible racism inherent in his actions has to be examined.

    But this is not the thread to do this in, if you would like to start a thread on that topic, I would be happy to join it.
    Jeez, did you do really do something that stupid? You were as Dumb As Donald!

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    Re: Why are you shoving this wall down our throats?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Unless you plan on fining people no matter what then simply fining employers is not going to work. Right now the only way an employer gets fined is if it can be proven that they knowingly hired an illegal. Which is the right thing to do since illegal aliens use illegal documents that the employer may not know is illegal but they do look legit. I'm all for increasing that fine. I have also advocated for prison time and loss of business license. But proven that they have knowingly hired an illegal alien is not as easy as it sounds. Unless you have documents/evidence or witnesses proving it then it's next to impossible.

    But simply fining employers is not enough. Especially when you have sanctuary cities an states obstructing investigations by refusing to cooperate. A lot needs to be done to make it to where life in the US for a person here illegally is simply not worth it. Such work is going to take time. Lots of it. Especially with how partisan and greedy our politicians are. In the mean time, a wall will help.

    In order to slow illegal immigration down to a trickle (with or without a wall) things are going to have to be done that many simply do not want to happen.

    1: Birthright citizenship for those here illegally HAS to end. This can be done either through an amendment or through interpreting the 14th Amendment citizenship clause the way it was originally meant to be interpreted. Which is as applying only to those here legally and not of ambassadorial status. As the author of the 14th Amendment argued for. This can still be done as the Ark case was about someone who was born here while his parents were here legally. It never actually addressed those here illegally. No other country allows birth right citizenship for those illegally in their borders that I know of.

    2: As you have already suggested, fine the hell out of employers that hire illegal aliens. Keep the "knowingly hired" bit though as an illegal using fake documents or stolen identities is not the employers fault. Additionally loss of business license, liquidation of business assets to pay for the fine, and prison time.

    3: Institute mandatory e-verify for everything from employment, to buying a car, to getting a bank account, sending money another country, renting/buying a place to live, and getting a license to start/run a business.

    4: Require every school to report any child that is not in the US legally and/or their parents/guardians. Being as SCOTUS ruled such a violation of the Constitution an amendment may be needed.

    Do you see any of those as being easy to implement? Or not taking lots of time to implement? I sure don't. Which means in the mean time....a wall to help. A wall can eventually be torn down when it is no longer needed. But until such time as its not needed its better than what we currently have.
    The purpose of the thread was to see evidence that spending $5b on a small portion of Trump's wall will be an effective strategy to limit illegal immigration and the illegal drug trade.

    After much typing, I see you do say a wall will help. Do you have any studies from reputable sources to support your claims, or are you just pulling this "fact" out of thin air?
    Jeez, did you do really do something that stupid? You were as Dumb As Donald!

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