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Our Political System is Dead!

ElChupacabra said:
I don't know about that, but I think politically we're in bad shape. Eventually the consequences of "party before country" take hold and that becomes the sobering point. It may or may not work in this country, but time will tell. I've always found politics intriguing, but it's becoming significantly less so due to the low brow aspect of it all. It's odd to witness so many Americans polarized and rooting against each other, and in many ways pretty sad.
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I'm an old fart who can remember when we used to have an election, then the losing candidate/s and party wished and tried to help those whom were elected to be successful. Them being successful meant the country was successful also.

I think these days, the politics of destruction and trying to destroy the winners is really hurting the country as a whole. Will it lead to its destruction, possible. If this keeps up, then I'm sure it will. I've like some things Trump has done, disliked others, pretty much like every other president before him. I do however really, really dislike his obnoxious, unpresidential behavior, more child like than presidential. But I can't condone trying to destroy him only because he won an election.

Let the people speak in November as to his raunchy persona he exhibits. What we need to do as Americans is to work to keep this country secure and prosperous, the paths to that may very and that is worth debating. But the politics of destruction in my opinion must cease. If not, it is just a matter of time before the whole ball of wax come tumbling down. It won't be only the president or political party you opposed, but the whole darn country.
 
CriticalThought said:
The confirmation of Judge Merrick Garland should have never been a political contest to begin with. The process is supposed to be about determining judicial qualifications, not a battle over the person who made the nomination. The Republicans transformed the process into one of political opposition against President Obama, with a clear goal of preventing him from seating anyone on the Supreme Court.

Yay! Picking arbitrary points in history to make one side seem more blameworthy than the other! What a fun game! Wow, I feel so much better about the state of our country.
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You are correct, they should have conducted confirmation hearings and had a vote. You are also correct that republicans didn't want Obama to appoint a 3rd justice, especially one who would replace Scalia and upset the balance of the court. The republicans controlled the senate and could have voted against Garland and any other Obama nominee that followed, and in my opinion if they wanted to deny Obama, they should have gone that route. Either way, that's how our political system is set up. The majority party sets and controls the agenda.

There is however, a clear difference between the democrats vs. Kavanaugh, and republicans vs.Garland. The republicans refused to hold a confirmation hearing and while I don't agree with their choice, they held the majority in the senate, which gave them the power to do so. The democrats on the other hand, who were in the minority and unable to prevent Trump's nominee from being confirmed because of their choice to remove the 60 vote filibuster rule, chose to turn a confirmation hearing into a political circus by attempting to falsely smear a good man and destroy his life to prevent Trump from seating any justice to SCOTUS.

Republicans prevented the confirmation process from happening, while democrats destroyed the confirmation process itself.

.
 
CriticalThought said:
No matter which political narrative you follow a nail was struck into the coffin of the judiciary today. Democrats will take control of the House, if not in November then the next election or the next. When they do the investigations will start. President Trump, Justice Kavanaugh, and so forth. The facts will come out for months and months. The media will cover it in sickening detail with the right wing proclaiming conspiracy in every corner and the left proclaiming the corruption, lies, and deceit. Any remaining morsel of faith the American public has in our institutions and government will erode in spectacular fashion. This is not politics as usual. Today the stage has been set for years of political strife. The only institution that needed to remain nonpolitical and impartial has been injected with both for the sake of pushing an agenda and so now that very institution will be open to constant political attack for the remainder of our lives. This is not even about putting a conservative on the court. Had Kavanaugh stepped down, another conservative almost certainly would have been placed on the court and the integrity of the court would have been maintained. But the GOP was scared of the scant possibility that they would lose the Senate and their chance, and so they pushed through Kavanaugh and have now completely decimated the institution. That is not to say I am not angry with Democrats and whoever waited until right before the confirmation process to push Ford into the center. That is not to say the left hasn't treated this situation in a sickening opportunistic fashion that justifies many of the complaints the right has of the sanctimonious attitude and bullying disposition of the left. But all the adults have now left the room. Nobody made a bold sacrifice for the country. Kavanaugh was treated unfairly. Ford was treated unfairly. But we have reached a point where winning is more important than governing. Winning at all costs. Winning even it destroys our faith in our government and one another. I hope Republicans enjoy their hollow victory today and Democrats enjoy their own hollow victories to come because strife can only beget strife and only the true anarchists are salivating at the prospects of our future.
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Another irrational person that complains about the government they maintain is necessary.
 
Grim17 said:
You are correct, they should have conducted confirmation hearings and had a vote. You are also correct that republicans didn't want Obama to appoint a 3rd justice, especially one who would replace Scalia and upset the balance of the court. The republicans controlled the senate and could have voted against Garland and any other Obama nominee that followed, and in my opinion if they wanted to deny Obama, they should have gone that route. Either way, that's how our political system is set up. The majority party sets and controls the agenda.

There is however, a clear difference between the democrats vs. Kavanaugh, and republicans vs.Garland. The republicans refused to hold a confirmation hearing and while I don't agree with their choice, they held the majority in the senate, which gave them the power to do so. The democrats on the other hand, who were in the minority and unable to prevent Trump's nominee from being confirmed because of their choice to remove the 60 vote filibuster rule, chose to turn a confirmation hearing into a political circus by attempting to falsely smear a good man and destroy his life to prevent Trump from seating any justice to SCOTUS.

Republicans prevented the confirmation process from happening, while democrats destroyed the confirmation process itself.

.
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I said then that I disagreed with the GOP decision on Garland and that he should have been seated. However...the democrats...twice...set the precedent on denying a President judicial nominees during the final year of their presidency and anyone that believes after all the democrat bull**** that they would suddenly stop their bull**** and do things different is either naive or just plain dishonest.
 
Grim17 said:
While I do agree with your conclusion on the state of politics, what it has become, and the unfortunate injection of partisan politics into the SC nomination process, I disagree that the GOP are the ones who decimated it.

The democrats made this process political before Trump ever nominated Kavanaugh. When Kennedy announced his retirement, many democrats publicly stated that no matter who was nominated by the president, they would vehemently oppose them. Then when Trump announced Kavabaugh as his pick, less than an hour later Chuck Schumer was already attacking him on the senate floor. It was those very same democrats who vowed to do whatever was necessary to prevent Trump from seating another pick on the Supreme Court... and that is precisely the action they took.

The GOP didn't rush to push Kavanaugh through and with all things considered, conducted themselves quite admirably. What the GOP did was fight against the obvious and blatant attempts by the democrats to stall the nomination process and prevent a confirmation vote from taking place before the midterms. The tactics used by democrats to accomplish this were by far the most vile, despicable and dishonest in the history of the process. When you stated that both Kavanaugh and Ford were treated unfairly, you failed to mention that is was the democrats who were guilty of that unfair treatment, not the republicans.

I agree that this episode has set the stage for years of political strife and may very well have decimated the institution, but it's the shameful political tactics employed by the democrats on capitol hill that are responsible for this deterioration.

.
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There is enough blame to go around for the sad state of politics, including us voters. I see things from a left perspective: The GOP sat on Obama’s nomination a short time ago, they are the only conservative party in the world to not recognize climate change, Trump cozies up to dictators, is obviously corrupt, and uses race to get ahead. I am sure on the right there are opposite analyses. But whence came the division? Gingrich”s suggestion of demonization of the other side, now adopted by both parties?... Nixon’s southern strategy, using race to shore up the GOP’s appeal to white voters? ... the worship of money in politics to the extent that we equate it with speech? In an earlier time, Hillary’s scandals or near scandals and Trump’s racist statements and lies would have been enough to sink either candidate. Que paso?
 
CriticalThought said:
No matter which political narrative you follow a nail was struck into the coffin of the judiciary today. Democrats will take control of the House, if not in November then the next election or the next. When they do the investigations will start. President Trump, Justice Kavanaugh, and so forth. The facts will come out for months and months. The media will cover it in sickening detail with the right wing proclaiming conspiracy in every corner and the left proclaiming the corruption, lies, and deceit. Any remaining morsel of faith the American public has in our institutions and government will erode in spectacular fashion. This is not politics as usual. Today the stage has been set for years of political strife. The only institution that needed to remain nonpolitical and impartial has been injected with both for the sake of pushing an agenda and so now that very institution will be open to constant political attack for the remainder of our lives. This is not even about putting a conservative on the court. Had Kavanaugh stepped down, another conservative almost certainly would have been placed on the court and the integrity of the court would have been maintained. But the GOP was scared of the scant possibility that they would lose the Senate and their chance, and so they pushed through Kavanaugh and have now completely decimated the institution. That is not to say I am not angry with Democrats and whoever waited until right before the confirmation process to push Ford into the center. That is not to say the left hasn't treated this situation in a sickening opportunistic fashion that justifies many of the complaints the right has of the sanctimonious attitude and bullying disposition of the left. But all the adults have now left the room. Nobody made a bold sacrifice for the country. Kavanaugh was treated unfairly. Ford was treated unfairly. But we have reached a point where winning is more important than governing. Winning at all costs. Winning even it destroys our faith in our government and one another. I hope Republicans enjoy their hollow victory today and Democrats enjoy their own hollow victories to come because strife can only beget strife and only the true anarchists are salivating at the prospects of our future.
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Our system worked exactly as it was intended to work. It isn't broken just because you don't like the outcome.
 
CriticalThought said:
You misunderstand. If I blame anything for where we are today it is technology.
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I accept your clarification but I really don't see how I was supposed to get "technology" out of your OP. Maybe let's just say you clarified what you were really thinking :p I still think you should try paragraphs.

Both sides are deadset on believing the other side is corrupt because that is how they justify all the subsequent corrupt actions their side takes. Our political system has become quite similar to Israel and Palestine, and I think we both know how an ever escalating pattern of tribal anger will pan out.
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I think it's been part of human society since human society existed. It's true that sophisticated sophistry aimed at discrediting reasonable and logical ideas, is now used literally on the world in real-time. That is true. But that's how we learn...we create something that's misused, we feel the pain, we learn from it. What choice do we have?
- stop innovating = terrible
- stop feeling pain when we misused innovation = terrible

The main thing I get from your post now is that you are terrified of attempting to determine good political positions from bad ones. And you're basically throwing up your hands and saying there is no way to determine which are good and which are bad, because it's all partisan politics controlled by sophisticated technology. If I had a dollar every time someone thought a system was too corrupt to be reformed...

Look, I love a good reasoned discussion/debate...but I have seen next to none from Republicans/conservatives on this forum. It's like 5 year olds going "Nuh uh!!", it's alarmingly sad. If they had justifiable reasons that I disagreed with, that would be one thing. But I have seen little to no evidence of that. It's emotional, and doesn't appeal to reason, and in many cases it's destructive, bad, and/or unethical. Democrats have that too, it's just not lead that way, it's not mainstream that way.

I just don't think Bart's confirmation is anywhere near the sort of calamities we've seen in our government in the past, civil war to keep slaves, or wars in Vietnam or Iraq, etc.
 
Fletch said:
It goes beyond the Obama years. Partisanship was high during the BUsh years. It was bad during the Clinton years and the Reagan years before that
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The point was to demonstrate it goes "beyond now". Which the Obama years suffices to illustrate.
 
apdst said:
Our system worked exactly as it was intended to work. It isn't broken just because you don't like the outcome.
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Remember that when Dems take the House. You only feel that way at the moment because you have complete control, but when it cracks and Dems use the system the same way, I will be quoting your post every time you bitch.
 
CriticalThought said:
Remember that when Dems take the House. You only feel that way at the moment because you have complete control, but when it cracks and Dems use the system the same way, I will be quoting your post every time you bitch.
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I won't be crying to change the system to rig it in my side's favor. If the Democrats win enough seats to hold a majority, then that's how the system works. I'm not going to run around crying about how the system is broken.

Our system isn't broken, now. It's ****ing idiotic to claim it is.
 
apdst said:
I won't be crying to change the system to rig it in my side's favor. If the Democrats win enough seats to hold a majority, then that's how the system works. I'm not going to run around crying about how the system is broken.

Our system isn't broken, now. It's ****ing idiotic to claim it is.
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So if they gerrymander the **** out of your area, then you won't complain?
 
CriticalThought said:
So if they gerrymander the **** out of your area, then you won't complain?
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If it's illegal, I will. Changing voting district lines is as old as the nation, itself.
 
CriticalThought said:
No matter which political narrative you follow a nail was struck into the coffin of the judiciary today. Democrats will take control of the House, if not in November then the next election or the next. When they do the investigations will start. President Trump, Justice Kavanaugh, and so forth. The facts will come out for months and months. The media will cover it in sickening detail with the right wing proclaiming conspiracy in every corner and the left proclaiming the corruption, lies, and deceit. Any remaining morsel of faith the American public has in our institutions and government will erode in spectacular fashion. This is not politics as usual. Today the stage has been set for years of political strife. The only institution that needed to remain nonpolitical and impartial has been injected with both for the sake of pushing an agenda and so now that very institution will be open to constant political attack for the remainder of our lives. This is not even about putting a conservative on the court. Had Kavanaugh stepped down, another conservative almost certainly would have been placed on the court and the integrity of the court would have been maintained. But the GOP was scared of the scant possibility that they would lose the Senate and their chance, and so they pushed through Kavanaugh and have now completely decimated the institution. That is not to say I am not angry with Democrats and whoever waited until right before the confirmation process to push Ford into the center. That is not to say the left hasn't treated this situation in a sickening opportunistic fashion that justifies many of the complaints the right has of the sanctimonious attitude and bullying disposition of the left. But all the adults have now left the room. Nobody made a bold sacrifice for the country. Kavanaugh was treated unfairly. Ford was treated unfairly. But we have reached a point where winning is more important than governing. Winning at all costs. Winning even it destroys our faith in our government and one another. I hope Republicans enjoy their hollow victory today and Democrats enjoy their own hollow victories to come because strife can only beget strife and only the true anarchists are salivating at the prospects of our future.
Click to expand...

When the pain gets turned up enough there will be a solution. There are only two ways out of BIG PAIN....Learning and death.
 
Grim17 said:
While I do agree with your conclusion on the state of politics, what it has become, and the unfortunate injection of partisan politics into the SC nomination process, I disagree that the GOP are the ones who decimated it.

The democrats made this process political before Trump ever nominated Kavanaugh. When Kennedy announced his retirement, many democrats publicly stated that no matter who was nominated by the president, they would vehemently oppose them. Then when Trump announced Kavabaugh as his pick, less than an hour later Chuck Schumer was already attacking him on the senate floor. It was those very same democrats who vowed to do whatever was necessary to prevent Trump from seating another pick on the Supreme Court... and that is precisely the action they took.

The GOP didn't rush to push Kavanaugh through and with all things considered, conducted themselves quite admirably. What the GOP did was fight against the obvious and blatant attempts by the democrats to stall the nomination process and prevent a confirmation vote from taking place before the midterms. The tactics used by democrats to accomplish this were by far the most vile, despicable and dishonest in the history of the process. When you stated that both Kavanaugh and Ford were treated unfairly, you failed to mention that is was the democrats who were guilty of that unfair treatment, not the republicans.

I agree that this episode has set the stage for years of political strife and may very well have decimated the institution, but it's the shameful political tactics employed by the democrats on capitol hill that are responsible for this deterioration.

.
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And you're completely ignoring that some prominent republicans declared that if Clinton won the presidency, they'd hold open that seat for four years, to say nothing to the outright falsehood that they didn't rush to push him through.

You're not fooling anyone but yourself.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
And you're completely ignoring that some prominent republicans declared that if Clinton won the presidency, they'd hold open that seat for four years, to say nothing to the outright falsehood that they didn't rush to push him through.

You're not fooling anyone but yourself.
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Which prominent republicans said this, and did they have any support for such an idea?

.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
You've never head of Google? Really?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-is-without-precedent/?utm_term=.009ea7766e63
Republicans Won?t Let Clinton Appoint a Justice If She Wins
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Thank you... I hadn't heard of such discussions.

But the fact is, they were only discussions, not a unified plan that was ever implemented. Threatening to vote "no" is a far cry from what the democrats did with the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing. Something I'm quite sure you will never acknowledge.

.
 
Grim17 said:
Thank you... I hadn't heard of such discussions.

But the fact is, they were only discussions, not a unified plan that was ever implemented. Threatening to vote "no" is a far cry from what the democrats did with the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing. Something I'm quite sure you will never acknowledge.

.
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Which is quite irrelevant to your specious claim that divisiveness somehow, magically, started with the dems.
 
CriticalThought said:
The confirmation of Judge Merrick Garland should have never been a political contest to begin with. The process is supposed to be about determining judicial qualifications, not a battle over the person who made the nomination. The Republicans transformed the process into one of political opposition against President Obama, with a clear goal of preventing him from seating anyone on the Supreme Court.

Yay! Picking arbitrary points in history to make one side seem more blameworthy than the other! What a fun game! Wow, I feel so much better about the state of our country.
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Just a quick point I've mentioned before. When the shoe was on the other foot both Joe Biden and Chucky Schumer argued to postpone nominating a new justice until the coming Presidential Election. McConnell had solid precedence for tabling Garland.
 
CriticalThought said:
Your reading comprehension is lacking if that is what you took from my post. Perhaps read some of the other responses and try again.
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Ok, I went back and reread. I did misunderstand you point. Mea Culpa.
 
CriticalThought said:
No matter which political narrative you follow a nail was struck into the coffin of the judiciary today. Democrats will take control of the House, if not in November then the next election or the next. When they do the investigations will start. President Trump, Justice Kavanaugh, and so forth. The facts will come out for months and months. The media will cover it in sickening detail with the right wing proclaiming conspiracy in every corner and the left proclaiming the corruption, lies, and deceit. Any remaining morsel of faith the American public has in our institutions and government will erode in spectacular fashion. This is not politics as usual. Today the stage has been set for years of political strife. The only institution that needed to remain nonpolitical and impartial has been injected with both for the sake of pushing an agenda and so now that very institution will be open to constant political attack for the remainder of our lives. This is not even about putting a conservative on the court. Had Kavanaugh stepped down, another conservative almost certainly would have been placed on the court and the integrity of the court would have been maintained. But the GOP was scared of the scant possibility that they would lose the Senate and their chance, and so they pushed through Kavanaugh and have now completely decimated the institution. That is not to say I am not angry with Democrats and whoever waited until right before the confirmation process to push Ford into the center. That is not to say the left hasn't treated this situation in a sickening opportunistic fashion that justifies many of the complaints the right has of the sanctimonious attitude and bullying disposition of the left. But all the adults have now left the room. Nobody made a bold sacrifice for the country. Kavanaugh was treated unfairly. Ford was treated unfairly. But we have reached a point where winning is more important than governing. Winning at all costs. Winning even it destroys our faith in our government and one another. I hope Republicans enjoy their hollow victory today and Democrats enjoy their own hollow victories to come because strife can only beget strife and only the true anarchists are salivating at the prospects of our future.
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The only permanent damage is to Spartacus, who is now a laughing stock.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
Which is quite irrelevant to your specious claim that divisiveness somehow, magically, started with the dems.
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I never made that claimed. My post refuted the notion put forth by the op that republicans "pushed through Kavanaugh" and that they "completely decimated the institution" in doing so.

You should take a little more time reading and getting your facts straight before commenting... It would same you a lot of time and embarrassment.

.
 
Grim17 said:
I never made that claimed. My post refuted the notion put forth by the op that republicans "pushed through Kavanaugh" and that they "completely decimated the institution" in doing so.

You should take a little more time reading and getting your facts straight before commenting... It would same you a lot of time and embarrassment.

.
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LOL! No, you most certainly did not refute that notion, but it's still fun to watch you desperately pretend that you have.

And, yes, in terms of this issue, you most certainly did make that claim.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
LOL! No, you most certainly did not refute that notion, but it's still fun to watch you desperately pretend that you have.

And, yes, in terms of this issue, you most certainly did make that claim.
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As I said, I was discussing the opinion of the op and the claims he made pertaining to the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing.

Here's the post of mine you originally quoted. Please point out where I said the "divisiveness somehow, magically, started with the dems".

Grim17 said:
While I do agree with your conclusion on the state of politics, what it has become, and the unfortunate injection of partisan politics into the SC nomination process, I disagree that the GOP are the ones who decimated it.

The democrats made this process political before Trump ever nominated Kavanaugh. When Kennedy announced his retirement, many democrats publicly stated that no matter who was nominated by the president, they would vehemently oppose them. Then when Trump announced Kavabaugh as his pick, less than an hour later Chuck Schumer was already attacking him on the senate floor. It was those very same democrats who vowed to do whatever was necessary to prevent Trump from seating another pick on the Supreme Court... and that is precisely the action they took.

The GOP didn't rush to push Kavanaugh through and with all things considered, conducted themselves quite admirably. What the GOP did was fight against the obvious and blatant attempts by the democrats to stall the nomination process and prevent a confirmation vote from taking place before the midterms. The tactics used by democrats to accomplish this were by far the most vile, despicable and dishonest in the history of the process. When you stated that both Kavanaugh and Ford were treated unfairly, you failed to mention that is was the democrats who were guilty of that unfair treatment, not the republicans.

I agree that this episode has set the stage for years of political strife and may very well have decimated the institution, but it's the shameful political tactics employed by the democrats on capitol hill that are responsible for this deterioration.
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.
 
Grim17 said:
As I said, I was discussing the opinion of the op and the claims he made pertaining to the Kavanaugh confirmation hearing.

Here's the post of mine you originally quoted. Please point out where I said the "divisiveness somehow, magically, started with the dems".




.
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You stated they made this process political before Trump even nominated him. It was political well before than with Trump essentially handing off the repsonsibility of researching judges to far right think tanks for very specific candidates with very specific political leans.
 
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