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Prager U: left vs liberal

Liberals and Neo-liberals (what is being called "the left" here) parted ways in the early Industrial Revolution. That was the last time capitalism was left completely free. That was the gilded age, when you had a handful of factory owners working a few days a month and making more than the entire GDP of entire nations, while hiring kids as young as 8 to work 80 hour weeks in factories and mines with dangerous equipment and chemicals, with no liability or responsibility for their safety.

The situation, left alone and free to itself as the classical liberals were urging, was worsening, not improving. In Europe particularly, which in countries like the UK the industrial revolution was further along than the US, workers and the public at large were beginning to rebel. Marx had prosphecied that capitalism was going to mature and eventually that's when the workers would undergo a violent revolution and take over the means of production. That was what was starting to happen. Violent, radical Marxist parties were starting to win elections and doing very well in poll after poll. The situation seemed unsustainable.

That's when the new liberals ("neo-liberals") came in. They were not Marxists. They wanted to save capitalism from Marxism. They did not feel that a violent workers' revolution was inevitable as Marx had predicted. They proposed some commonsense regulations like child labor laws, overtime laws, workplace safety laws, antitrust laws, unionization, etc... and the sense of rebellion started to fade. The Marxist parties started to go down in the polls and fade away.

So in that sense, it was the neo- liberals, not the classical ones, who saved capitalism. Left to the classical liberals, Marxism would have had much more of an inroad in western industrial nations in Europe, and possibly even the US.

Interesting take, but the left as defined by Prager is closer to Marx than classical liberalism. The left is anti-capitalist and not inclined to save it. Neoliberals are usually associated with free markets, bringing down trade barriers, de-regulation, etc.
 
Prager must be sending this around the right wing internet because this is the second post pointing to this video I have seen on various forums. Prager wants desperately to label anyone left of him with something pejorative. If he can successfully label his opposition, he can define them for his followers. If he can define them, he can persuade his followers to close their minds and ears to their rebuttals. If he can achieve this feat, he can force feed his supporters anything and they will believe it because they want to belong to a group so badly they will believe in anything to support this primal need. Normal people though reject this type of politics and embrace a worldview that brings people together rather then define boundaries. As a life long Democrat and a follower of politics on an almost daily basis since 1972, i can assure you that Prager does not describe me or my fellow Democrats at all. He should take his airtime and reflect upon whatever successes he thinks conservative politics has achieved for the common man over the last fifty to seventy years. He will have to search far and wide to come close to what "liberals" or "leftists" or Democrats have done for the common man and the planet.
 
A leftist calling himself a liberal is like a wolf putting on sheep's clothing.
Are to too stupid to understand my post or just too dishonest to actually address it?
 
The liberals of the 1960's were called the love generation. This new liberalism is the fear and hate generation. The love generation came from positive religions like Christianity, while the hate generation comes from the dark side of Communism and Fascism.
 
Classical liberalism is dead. I'm not sure what the hell you'd call this abortion that has replaced it.

It's a kind of socialism.
 
Liberals and Neo-liberals (what is being called "the left" here) parted ways in the early Industrial Revolution. That was the last time capitalism was left completely free. That was the gilded age, when you had a handful of factory owners working a few days a month and making more than the entire GDP of entire nations, while hiring kids as young as 8 to work 80 hour weeks in factories and mines with dangerous equipment and chemicals, with no liability or responsibility for their safety.

The situation, left alone and free to itself as the classical liberals were urging, was worsening, not improving. In Europe particularly, which in countries like the UK the industrial revolution was further along than the US, workers and the public at large were beginning to rebel. Marx had prosphecied that capitalism was going to mature and eventually that's when the workers would undergo a violent revolution and take over the means of production. That was what was starting to happen. Violent, radical Marxist parties were starting to win elections and doing very well in poll after poll. The situation seemed unsustainable.

That's when the new liberals ("neo-liberals") came in. They were not Marxists. They wanted to save capitalism from Marxism. They did not feel that a violent workers' revolution was inevitable as Marx had predicted. They proposed some commonsense regulations like child labor laws, overtime laws, workplace safety laws, antitrust laws, unionization, etc... and the sense of rebellion started to fade. The Marxist parties started to go down in the polls and fade away.

So in that sense, it was the neo- liberals, not the classical ones, who saved capitalism. Left to the classical liberals, Marxism would have had much more of an inroad in western industrial nations in Europe, and possibly even the US.

And now a significant number of liberals basically hate capitalism.
 
And now a significant number of liberals basically hate capitalism.

Not really. Not even Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. They just think it needs some basic safety nets and guardrails on it, and don’t think all will be fine and dandy if it’s just left completely alone and free. Your sentiment above sentiment is just Fox News fear mongering.

It’s like telling people if they relax from work a little, they will be lazy bums. Or if they have an occasional beer on the weekends, they are on a slippery slope to alcoholism. Or if they are firm with their kids occasionally, they are on a slippery slope to being child abusers. Or if they do work that they enjoy rather than just for making money, they are being imprudent. I can go on and on. It’s the mindset of blind fanaticism and radicalism.

”Those, no doubt, are in some way fortunate who have brought themselves, or have been brought by others, to obey some ultimate principle before the bar of which all problems can be brought. Single-minded monists, ruthless fanatics, men possessed by an all-embracing coherent vision do not know the doubts and agonies of those who cannot wholly blind themselves to reality.”
-Sir Isaiah Berlin
 
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And now a significant number of liberals basically hate capitalism.

I believe what you are seeing is a generation or two that associates capitalism with a system where the "haves" get to play by a completely different set of rules that the "have nots". The deck is stacked against the vast majority, and they know it.

In reality, there is no pure capitalism and no one is interested in pure socialism. We currently live in a system that's a mix of those two, along with some other things. It's a broken, corrupt system - that's the problem. When you show people something that is broken and tell them it's capitalism, would you expect them to like it?
 
I believe what you are seeing is a generation or two that associates capitalism with a system where the "haves" get to play by a completely different set of rules that the "have nots". The deck is stacked against the vast majority, and they know it.

In reality, there is no pure capitalism and no one is interested in pure socialism. We currently live in a system that's a mix of those two, along with some other things. It's a broken, corrupt system - that's the problem. When you show people something that is broken and tell them it's capitalism, would you expect them to like it?

No one? So Jim Carrey didn't tell everyone to embrace it on Bill Maher's show? More and more socialists are bold enough to stop lying about their support of full socialism or communism.
 
No one? So Jim Carrey didn't tell everyone to embrace it on Bill Maher's show? More and more socialists are bold enough to stop lying about their support of full socialism or communism.

Wow. Okay, I'll amend that statement. "No one significant."

There are what, 330 million people in this country, and you found a video of one rich guy who probably doesn't understand what "it" is telling people to embrace "it"? That's part of the point - too few people know what the "it" of capitalism and socialism really is.

socialism (sōˈshə-lĭzˌəm)►
n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
n. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

capitalism (kăpˈĭ-tl-ĭzˌəm)►
n. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Our system is predominantly capitalism. The argument is more about the extent corporate power and the power of the monied elite.
 
Wow. Okay, I'll amend that statement. "No one significant."

There are what, 330 million people in this country, and you found a video of one rich guy who probably doesn't understand what "it" is telling people to embrace "it"? That's part of the point - too few people know what the "it" of capitalism and socialism really is.

socialism (sōˈshə-lĭzˌəm)►
n. Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
n. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.

capitalism (kăpˈĭ-tl-ĭzˌəm)►
n. An economic system in which the means of production and distribution are privately or corporately owned and development is proportionate to the accumulation and reinvestment of profits gained in a free market.

Our system is predominantly capitalism. The argument is more about the extent corporate power and the power of the monied elite.

I didn't just "find a video" its just an example from recent memory, as in less than a week ago it happened. I only needed one example to disprove your absolute claim, if you need more I can provide more.
 
Double plus ungood

This is rich. The loony left started insisting on 1984 style newspeak (aka political correctness) years ago and now they accuse Dennis Prager of manipulating reality for advocating clarity.

No, Orwell had been there & done that - tramped through the sticks in England among the homeless &/or destitute working class, served in India as an enforcer for the crown (or a corporate shell), fought in the Spanish Civil War on the Republican side, & nearly died for his troubles. 1984 is many things, but never a paean to Stalinesque-style Communism - that's one of the things he saw in Spain, & was lucky to escape Spain before the Soviet goons caught up with him. The rest of his life he spoke out against Stalin & purges & the horrors of Soviet massacres.

That's why everyone wants to claim Orwell, now that he's safely dead. He didn't have any use for party hacks who merely parroted the latest line in order to remain in power. He popularized a concern for the clarity & content of language, especially political language.

& political correctness wasn't his creation, it was coined in the 1920s, as I recall, as Leftist mild satire on the endless speeches & justifications for the Party's line - which changed all the time, & thus the need for windy orations to cover each & every change, & point out why the previous positions were all wrong, & the shiny new bauble was the greatest thing since sliced bread.
 
No one? So Jim Carrey didn't tell everyone to embrace it on Bill Maher's show? More and more socialists are bold enough to stop lying about their support of full socialism or communism.

Socialists, by definition, don't support communism. Otherwise they'd be known as 'communists'.

There's a difference.
 
Errata

No, Orwell had been there & done that - tramped through the sticks in England among the homeless &/or destitute working class, served in India as an enforcer for the crown (or a corporate shell), fought in the Spanish Civil War on the Republican side, & nearly died for his troubles. 1984 is many things, but never a paean to Stalinesque-style Communism - that's one of the things he saw in Spain, & was lucky to escape Spain before the Soviet goons caught up with him. The rest of his life he spoke out against Stalin & purges & the horrors of Soviet massacres.


Actually, he joined the Indian Police Force in Burma (his maternal grandmother lived there). My bad.
 
I didn't just "find a video" its just an example from recent memory, as in less than a week ago it happened. I only needed one example to disprove your absolute claim, if you need more I can provide more.

No, I modified the "absolute claim". My mistake, and we can do the same with any "absolute" claim.

So what? Do you know the differences between Marxism, democratic socialism and socialism?

Why should I care what a has-been actor thinks, anyway?

Let me repeat the point - The system is not working for large numbers of people, and they are rejecting it and looking at other options. If you don't like that, I suggest that you work to improve the system.
 
"Dear liberals, conservatives are not your enemies. The left is."

Which is why so many people like myself call themselves libertarians or moderate conservatives. We are, in fact, classical liberals, but to call ourselves that would confuse people. I suppose that, semantically speaking, there's no untangling "liberal" from "left" any more. One more reason to consider the left to be evil.

Liberalism is the opposite of leftism. Yes, that's true. Liberals, properly speaking, are capitalistic, pro-American, nationalistic, promote color-blind policies, de-segregation, equality of all people, free speech, freedom to practice religion, and equality of the sexes. The left is the opposite.
I've frequently labeled myself a conservatarian with Classic Liberal overtones. Confuses the heck out of those that cling to simple labels or dictionary definitions. But you some it up well.


Todays "liberals" lack the classic influences and embrace progressivism, the "we know better" ideology that values "the good of the whole" over the rights of the individual and favors policies and regulations dictated by "scientific principles" and unelected "experts".
 
I've frequently labeled myself a conservatarian with Classic Liberal overtones. Confuses the heck out of those that cling to simple labels or dictionary definitions. But you some it up well.


Todays "liberals" lack the classic influences and embrace progressivism, the "we know better" ideology that values "the good of the whole" over the rights of the individual and favors policies and regulations dictated by "scientific principles" and unelected "experts".

So you think scientific facts must be voted on democratically?
 
Are to too stupid to understand my post or just too dishonest to actually address it?

Stupid or dishonest? Those are my choices? I don't like this game.
 
Stupid or dishonest? Those are my choices? I don't like this game.
I made a post explaining why using labels to attack large generic groups is wrong and your response consisted of entirely of using labels to attack a large generic group. You either didn't understand my clear and simple point or chose to entirely ignore it and post an irrelevant response. Which was it?
 
A far right reactionary paleocon calling himself 'Libertarian' is always good for a laugh.
So is an "undisclosed" hurling labels at others.
 
I made a post explaining why using labels to attack large generic groups is wrong and your response consisted of entirely of using labels to attack a large generic group. You either didn't understand my clear and simple point or chose to entirely ignore it and post an irrelevant response. Which was it?

I find a left winger who pretends to disdain the use of group labels to be ridiculous, and so I shall be ridiculous in turn.
 
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