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It's morally reprehensible that the wealth is so unevenly distributed.

Winston said:
I would put the same question to you, as I did to Big Ed.

Then WHY do the societies that use my model, get better results than the U.S.A. In terms of social mobility.
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Stalinist Russia used your model Nazi Germany used your model.

It's the hundreds of millions murdered that worries me.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Stalinist Russia used your model Nazi Germany used your model.

It's the hundreds of millions murdered that worries me.
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It's not the 1940's anymore CLAX.
 
CLAX1911 said:
Go tell that to Venezuela.

Selling the same nonsense that failed in the 40s won't make it any better now.

It doesn't work it never has.
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This chart shows it works. Do you understand what it shows?
 
CLAX1911 said:
It doesn't show the times it doesn't.

Venezuela isn't Atlantis
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It shows you have a greater chance of escaping poverty in Sweden than America. Why do you think the Swedes have more economic security than Americans?
 
Winston said:
It shows you have a greater chance of escaping poverty in Sweden than America. Why do you think the Swedes have more economic security than Americans?
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As long as Sweden is solvent. The EU is coming apart at the seams and the ability to afford lavish lifestyles on the government dime will end.

Once again look at Venezuela.
 
Winston said:
I disagree. The stats are on my side too.

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This shows societies that use my model get exactly the results I described. How come then, in those societies that use my model, more poor people go on to exceed the income level they were born into?
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Perhaps because it is "your" model. One can easily make statistics show exactly what they want - doesn't exactly guarantee reality.
 
CLAX1911 said:
As long as Sweden is solvent. The EU is coming apart at the seams and the ability to afford lavish lifestyles on the government dime will end.

Once again look at Venezuela.
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Sweden's GDP is growing at 4% and they run a budget surplus.
 
Big Ed said:
Perhaps because it is "your" model. One can easily make statistics show exactly what they want - doesn't exactly guarantee reality.
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You're accusing me of faking the numbers?

How do you explain Sweden's having a 27% rate of remaining in poverty compared to the United States closer to 34%?
 
Winston said:
You're accusing me of faking the numbers?

How do you explain Sweden's having a 27% rate of remaining in poverty compared to the United States closer to 34%?
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I'm not calling you anything, nor explaining anything - couldn't give a rats-fart (if I had one) about Sweden. Your assertion was that those who have should be forced to give to those who do not have - I say "B.S!!" There are always those less fortunate than someone else - what are YOU doing to help those who are less fortunate than you??
 
Winston said:
Sweden's GDP is growing at 4% and they run a budget surplus.
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They are also importing a very poor and vastly different culture at a feverish rate. They come there specifically to mooch off of social programs.

The bubble will burst. The only question is how horrifying will it be.
 
Big Ed said:
I'm not calling you anything, nor explaining anything - couldn't give a rats-fart (if I had one) about Sweden. Your assertion was that those who have should be forced to give to those who do not have - I say "B.S!!" There are always those less fortunate than someone else - what are YOU doing to help those who are less fortunate than you??
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I already gave you the answer. Those who spend 100% of their income are not in a position to help, but, be helped.

Of course there will always be the poor. I'm about improving the chances of escaping poverty and providing someone with the liberty to reach their full potential. All those European societies do it better than us. The stats show it. If you can't refute that, there's nothing really more to discuss.
 
CLAX1911 said:
They are also importing a very poor and vastly different culture at a feverish rate. They come there specifically to mooch off of social programs.

The bubble will burst. The only question is how horrifying will it be.
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I think their politicians are smarter than that. But, they will face some challenges and I've read about potential labor shortages in Sweden in the near future.
 
Big Ed said:
Perhaps because it is "your" model. One can easily make statistics show exactly what they want - doesn't exactly guarantee reality.
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Forget the fact that remaining in the bottom "quintile" in the United States places you in the top 1% of earners world wide.

Forget wages are higher in the states than anywhere else.

It's not good enough that poverty is way easier in the states than anywhere else. We need to take money from those rich fat cats and the better keep working at the same level so that they can't Lord their private jet over us.
 
Winston said:
I think their politicians are smarter than that.
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You put too much faith in them. It was their stupidity that made the current mess.

But, they will face some challenges and I've read about potential labor shortages in Sweden in the near future.
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I think that will be the least of their worries.
 
Winston said:
I already gave you the answer. Those who spend 100% of their income are not in a position to help, but, be helped.

Of course there will always be the poor. I'm about improving the chances of escaping poverty and providing someone with the liberty to reach their full potential. All those European societies do it better than us. The stats show it. If you can't refute that, there's nothing really more to discuss.
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Again, you ducked my question - what are you doing to help those less-fortunate than you? If your answer is "nothing" then … what can I say? I do not consider myself to be overly wealthy, but even when I had little left in my checkbook, I helped in other ways; i.e., I donated my time to build houses, repaired houses, gave what I could to food kitchens, etc. what have you done other than chastise others?
 
Winston said:
I already gave you the answer. Those who spend 100% of their income are not in a position to help, but, be helped.
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We help them, we give them subsidized housing, grocery money, iPhones and so forth. They either still spend 100% of their income or they chose to earn less because why bother if the government is just going to give it to you. And you think the problem is not giving them enough?

Of course there will always be the poor. I'm about improving the chances of escaping poverty and providing someone with the liberty to reach their full potential.
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They have all the opportunity in the world they simply don't want to.

All those European societies do it better than us. The stats show it. If you can't refute that, there's nothing really more to discuss.
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You need to first prove that mobility from poverty is not as easy in the United States. You don't factor in cultural differences. Slapping up some broad statistics isn't enough to prove anything. You need to take into account all the variables.
 
Winston said:
Sweden's GDP is growing at 4% and they run a budget surplus.
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There may be a reason for that. Sweden's government spending is around 60% of its revenue each year. US government spending is around 114% of its yearly revenue. The US has too big a government and is spending itself into bankruptcy.
 
phattonez said:
So why have median male incomes declined in the era of free trade?
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It's a combination of things starting with the dramatic lowering of tax rates for the top bracket, the decline of unions and competition from other nations mostly financed by U.S. Corporations. Corporate greed/Wage stagnation became the norm in the 1980's when Reagans's "voodoo economics" made even asking our beloved "job creators" for a raise like commiting treason. It's been all downhill from there as far as the middle class goes. Before, the "American Dream" was something that all of us sought after together and the CEO's had no reason to take 10's of millions in yearly wages that would be taxed away so instead invested their profits in their employees and factories. It wasn't perfect but we all grew together and paid our own way too instead of mortgaging our children's future with debt that grows larger with every tax cut for the "job creators".
 
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Winston said:
I'm in favor of wealth redistribution. Bezos is one billionaire. If you look at the whole club, they can give back enough to meet the needs of our veterans. There's evidence suggesting that once you reach the threshold of around 80k-100k per year, nothing more adds to your satisfaction of life. So, when you look at really gross amounts, they are unnecessary for one man, or even unnecessary for the line that succeeds him.
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How did you reach that conclusion? I know many who's "wealth" is invested in their land - giving away their income would cause them to lose the land that has been in their family for generations! You seem to miss the simple ramifications of economy.
 
Big Ed said:
Again, you ducked my question - what are you doing to help those less-fortunate than you? If your answer is "nothing" then … what can I say? I do not consider myself to be overly wealthy, but even when I had little left in my checkbook, I helped in other ways; i.e., I donated my time to build houses, repaired houses, gave what I could to food kitchens, etc. what have you done other than chastise others?
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I have given to clean water charities and Democratic politicians. But, I'm not in a position to help people, but rather be helped. I don't have health insurance.. and I haven't for 5 years. Too poor.

Anyway, if America does not raise taxes on the rich and redistribute income our democracy will fail.

Why are the Swedes more financially secure than Americans? What makes their society more compassionate than the American one?
 
CLAX1911 said:
We help them, we give them subsidized housing, grocery money, iPhones and so forth. They either still spend 100% of their income or they chose to earn less because why bother if the government is just going to give it to you. And you think the problem is not giving them enough?
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Half of all workers in the U.S. make less than 30k. You're telling me half of all workers in the U.S. are incompetent lazy bums?

They have all the opportunity in the world they simply don't want to.
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Sure, sure :roll:

You need to first prove that mobility from poverty is not as easy in the United States. You don't factor in cultural differences. Slapping up some broad statistics isn't enough to prove anything. You need to take into account all the variables.
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Since you would blame the welfare state for people never escaping poverty in the U.S.A, yet countries with larger welfare states have better rates of people escaping poverty. So, what does that say?

I say people can't escape poverty because of a rigged society in favor of the rich. Why do you think they can't escape poverty in the U.S.A but, they are more likely to escape it in societies with more safety net programs?
 
Winston said:
Half of all workers in the U.S. make less than 30k. You're telling me half of all workers in the U.S. are incompetent lazy bums?
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I was a worker and made less than 30k. Emphasis on the word was. That shouldn't be a lifetime job. If you are competent and motivated you move up. If not than you are incompetent and lazy.



Sure, sure :roll:
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I take absence of argument to indicate lack of argument.



Since you would blame the welfare state for people never escaping poverty in the U.S.A, yet countries with larger welfare states have better rates of people escaping poverty. So, what does that say?
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It says the poverty line is really high in the United States. U.s. citizens are in the top 1% World wide. That includes so called "poverty"

I say people can't escape poverty because of a rigged society in favor of the rich.
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That is because you are a Marxist, and when a hammer is the only tool you have all problems look like nails. Try thinking outside your political orthodoxy.

Why do you think they can't escape poverty in the U.S.A but, they are more likely to escape it in societies with more safety net programs?
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I'm willing to except all sorts of different explanations but then again I don't have an agenda.
 
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