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American Conservatives Have A Raging Hypocrisy Problem

cpwill said:
Eh. I know a lot of those folks. My church in North Carolina, for example; probably all except for maybe a couple of us voted for Trump. But of those who voted for him, maybe... two or three individuals were actual fans.

The rest saw it as a purely defensive action. They saw the aggression and the willingness on the left to bully people like them - they looked at incidents like Memories Pizza and thought "That could be me." Giving more power to people who - as near as they could tell - wanted to use it to target folks like them was a non-starter, so.... they pulled the lever for Trump. :shrug:
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Do not think you are not part of the problem. How distant are your sympathies from supporting the methods of Pence the political panderer?
$800,000 raised for Indiana pizza shop - USA Today
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news...za-shop-religious-freedom-spotlight/25271455/
Apr 3, 2015 - Memories Pizza found itself in the middle of Indiana's "religious freedom" law.
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Why was the reasonable reply from the Memories Pizza spokesperson to the inquiring news reporter, "We object to the legislation?" But now, your church brethren are victims?
They wear their victimhood on their sleeves similarly to the demagogue they voted for, and your church brethren just happened to vote for Pence, the panderer who signed the unconstitutional legislation
that endeared him to our demagogue POTUS. Do some soul searching before assuming you can post such nonsense and expect it to be received as if it were reasonable sentiment. The same lack of discernment, a faked or actual inability to tell right from wrong,
is the operative condition. It is America of the 2010's not the 1910's!

Stop voting for people who scapegoat minorities for the premeditated purpose of increasing their political influence.

PHOTO: The owners of Memories Pizza in Walkerton, Ind. say that ...
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/pho...s-pizza-walkerton-ind-agree-governor-30045266
PHOTO: The owners of Memories Pizza in Walkerton, Ind. say that they agree with Governor Pence's signing of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act and that they would refuse to provide pizzas for gay weddings.
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A tale of two Americas and the one with the worst instincts is the self anointed victim; the America happily manipulated by "god, guns, n' gays". Y'all are killin' the country for the second time in 160 years.

Indiana's 'No Gay Weddings' Pizza Parlor Raises $842,592 | Time
Indiana'''s '''No Gay Weddings''' Pizza Parlor Raises $842,592 | Time
Apr 4, 2015 - The Walkerton, Ind. pizza parlor entered a national debate over Indiana's contentious Religious Freedom Restoration Act when its owners said in an interview that they would serve anyone regardless of sexual orientation but would not cater a gay marriage. “If a gay couple came in and wanted us to provide ...
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RFRA: Why the 'religious freedom law' signed by Mike Pence was so controversial
https://www.indystar.com/story/news...signed-mike-pence-so-controversial/546411002/
Indianapolis Star-Apr 25, 2018
Senate Bill 101, which was titled the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, was passed by the Indiana General Assembly by a 40-10 vote and on March 26, 2015, Pence signed it into law during a closed-door ceremony while surrounding by religious leaders and members of the Christian right. It was to go ...

Mike Pence isn't just horrible on LGBTQ issues. He's a true deplorable.
LGBTQ Nation-11 hours ago
We already know Vice President Mike Pence is horrible on LGBTQ issues. Pence rocketed to national prominence when, as governor of Indiana, he signed into law the state's “Religious Freedom Restoration Act,” which would have allowed businesses to refuse service to gay patrons based on their ...
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SouthernDemocrat said:
Get 10 conservatives in a room, you will find that at least 9 out of 10 of them always vote Republican.

Get 10 liberals in a room, you will find that 9 out of 10 of them always vote Democrat.
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Possibly, but that's irrelevant to my point.

Republicans are conservatives
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No, they are not. That's the point.
conservatives are almost all Republicans
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Possibly, but not necessarily.

But your making an error in logic. The Republican Party is not conservative and, thus, just because one is a Republican, that does not make them conservative.
 
nota bene said:
I've been very active in local politics, and so I know that it comes down to the individual candidate. I was one of four people to create a nonpartisan PAC to serve my county. One of us was a Republican, one was the chair of the Greens, and the other was a very-left libertarian. Years later when my leftie friend ran for county commissioner, I co-managed her campaign. So my votes have been "eclectic."

I'm what you'd call an independent who is mainly conservative. I am not a Republican.
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Its now hard to be a conservative in either party right now. Democrats and Republicans mostly want big government and spending now.. just depends on which companies get the money (though it appears that often they are the same companies no matter the party in power) .
 
jaeger19 said:
Its now hard to be a conservative in either party right now. Democrats and Republicans mostly want big government and spending now.. just depends on which companies get the money (though it appears that often they are the same companies no matter the party in power) .
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Earth to all those out there who don't much appreciate reality - Democrats and Republicans mostly want big government, a bigger military and spending since FOREVER.
 
camlok said:
Earth to all those out there who don't much appreciate reality - Democrats and Republicans mostly want big government, a bigger military and spending since FOREVER.
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Democrats attempt to offset expansion of government with actual expansion of revenue, and, in the example of the ACA, design legislation resulting in less spending outlay during the
projected spending period, than if the ACA was repealed. Democrats sometimes scapegoat wealth and power, republicans routinely scapegoat the least wealthy and powerful.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Possibly, but that's irrelevant to my point.

No, they are not. That's the point.
Possibly, but not necessarily.

But your making an error in logic. The Republican Party is not conservative and, thus, just because one is a Republican, that does not make them conservative.
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Your point is the same one communists argue. When you point all the atrocities committed by communist states, they will say "well they are not really communists" and "we have never actually tried communism". Its the same kind of argument used to say that Republicans are not really conservatives.
 
danarhea said:
Read the whole article, which succinctly lays out the problem with Donald Trump and his followers. True Conservatism is not dead, but is on life support. However, there are still a few Conservative voices out there in the wilderness which are fighting to cure the Republican party of it's insanity, and I thank them from the bottom of my heart.

https://www.redstate.com/kimberly_ross/2018/05/04/american-conservatives-raging-hypocrisy/
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The left wing idea of a Conservative is someone who turns the other cheek and allow themselves to be bullied. George Bush took a lot of crap from the left wing bullies and never fought back. This made the left wing caricature stick. To the left, a Conservative is not allowed to lie or do anything shady. Only the left can get away with this. They can even get a promotion for bad behavior. In the past, many of the things Trump is accused of, would have forced the rest of the Conservatives, to band together and sacrifice one of their own. Trump is treated differently because he fights back against the bullies. He does not turn the other cheek.

If you recall, remember how easy it was for Trump to take out the entire Republican primary field. This showed the vulnerability of Conservatism, that the left wing is now lamenting. The Conservatives are expected to take the high moral road, which is harder, and play by the rules, which is also harder. The other team; left, gets to take the low road and break the rules. This is the way the left thinks it should be, again.

Trump used to be a Democrat. This is where he learned all his bad habits and where it also learned the vulnerabilities of the Democrats. Bullies function best when their victims do not fight back. Conservatives are not cooperating. Bullies do not like a fighter. It exposes their own vulnerability. Trump supporters are willing to forgive him many things, not normally associated with Conservative behavior, because Trump fights for them, so they can do not have to deal with the bullies.

I remember as a child, in 1st grade, I became the victim of a bully. He was a year older. I was a good but quiet kid, who did not know how to fight back. This made me a target of a bully. One day an older boy; 3rd grader, who I later learned was the toughest kid in the school, interceded on my behalf. His intersession made me bullet proof in that school. This allowed me to continue being a good kid, with the peace of mind to know I was immune to bullies. I could call my "Godfather" and the bullies knew it.

From that event, I also learned an important lesson of life. The lesson I learned was I needed to make friends with the toughest kids in any school I would attend in the future, even if they were not the "good" kids. Jesus hung with the sinners. This would give me protection, so I could be a good kid, in peace, eve among the darkest elements.

A similar dynamics is going on in the political playground. Trump is the toughest kid in the political school yard. He is tough, but has a soft spot for those who are usually bullied by the gangs. By making Trump their friend, they get to walk around in peace, while Trump takes the heat for them. Trump likes to fight, so he gets to practice. Trump will continue to do this until the nice kids learn to band together and take it to the bullies, by the rules. This is about to happen. Then Trump can throttle down.
 
danarhea said:
Read the whole article, which succinctly lays out the problem with Donald Trump and his followers. True Conservatism is not dead, but is on life support. However, there are still a few Conservative voices out there in the wilderness which are fighting to cure the Republican party of it's insanity, and I thank them from the bottom of my heart.

https://www.redstate.com/kimberly_ross/2018/05/04/american-conservatives-raging-hypocrisy/
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My irony meter had a nuclear meltdown. :lamo
 
jaeger19 said:
Its now hard to be a conservative in either party right now. Democrats and Republicans mostly want big government and spending now.. just depends on which companies get the money (though it appears that often they are the same companies no matter the party in power) .
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When I read what you wrote parenthetically, I immediately thought "Halliburton." In some industries, one or two companies are wildly dominant because they can do what others can't.

As for the parties, I'm very cynical, particularly about incumbents entrenched at the fed level. I want more work and less theater.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Your point is the same one communists argue. When you point all the atrocities committed by communist states, they will say "well they are not really communists" and "we have never actually tried communism". Its the same kind of argument used to say that Republicans are not really conservatives.
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It's nothing like that at all. It's simple logic. You're trying to argue that because some of A belong to B, then all of B are A. That's just not logical.

First, you have to ignore what people claim they are and actually look at their positions. When you do that, you notice so many who claim to be conservative really are not. I agree with you that, of those who legitimately are conservative, many will vote Republican (though many vote for other parties as well). However, there are many others who vote Republican who are not conservative at all.

Thus, just because some of A (conservatives) belong to B (Republicans), that in no way means that all who belong to B are A.
 
Slyfox696 said:
It's nothing like that at all. It's simple logic. You're trying to argue that because some of A belong to B, then all of B are A. That's just not logical.

First, you have to ignore what people claim they are and actually look at their positions. When you do that, you notice so many who claim to be conservative really are not. I agree with you that, of those who legitimately are conservative, many will vote Republican (though many vote for other parties as well). However, there are many others who vote Republican who are not conservative at all.

Thus, just because some of A (conservatives) belong to B (Republicans), that in no way means that all who belong to B are A.
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There is no divine proclamation as to what conservatism or liberalism is. It is simply defined as what the majority of those that self identify as conservative believe. The same is true with liberalism. Conservatives do not have some divinely inspired scripture based upon the teachings of Edmund Burke.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
There is no divine proclamation as to what conservatism or liberalism is.
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No, but there are general values which align with the concept, not only of the word but its political implication. Those cannot be ignored simply because a political party has falsely claimed the mantle.

It is simply defined as what the majority of those that self identify as conservative believe.
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That's absurd. Facts are not subject to arbitrary opinion. You can claim the Republican party is what the majority of their policies suggest they are (which, in this case, is definitely not conservative), but you cannot claim the very definition of what it means to be conservative is predicated solely upon majority opinion. In other words, you can't just make up your own facts and act like they are relevant.
 
Slyfox696 said:
No, but there are general values which align with the concept, not only of the word but its political implication. Those cannot be ignored simply because a political party has falsely claimed the mantle.

That's absurd. Facts are not subject to arbitrary opinion. You can claim the Republican party is what the majority of their policies suggest they are (which, in this case, is definitely not conservative), but you cannot claim the very definition of what it means to be conservative is predicated solely upon majority opinion. In other words, you can't just make up your own facts and act like they are relevant.
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Conservatism is an ideology and is thus nothing more than a human construct. Human constructs are always defined by what the self identified members of that group believes it to be.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Conservatism is an ideology
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And thus not subject to arbitrary change.

thus nothing more than a human construct.
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But is not a Republican Party construct. Conservatism exists outside one political party in the United States and the idea the Republican Party gets to dictate what conservatism stands for, especially when they are constantly doing the opposite of what they claim to stand for, is nonsense.
Human constructs are always defined by what the self identified members of that group believes it to be.
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Ideas are bigger than arbitrary opinions in the moment. If the Republican Party were to die tomorrow, conservatism would still exist.
 
Slyfox696 said:
And thus not subject to arbitrary change.
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Of course it is. Conservatism in the United States is different than European Conservatism. It is different than what Conservatism was in the United States 50 years ago, which was different than what it was 50 years before that. Human constructs always change.

But is not a Republican Party construct. Conservatism exists outside one political party in the United States and the idea the Republican Party gets to dictate what conservatism stands for, especially when they are constantly doing the opposite of what they claim to stand for, is nonsense.
Ideas are bigger than arbitrary opinions in the moment. If the Republican Party were to die tomorrow, conservatism would still exist.
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The Republican Party does not dictate what American Conservatism is, but rather the policies and platforms of the Republican Party are a reflection of its conservative base. Thus if you want to see American Conservatism in action, look no further than the Republican Party because they are beholden to the wants and beliefs of American conservatives, and the vast, vast majority of American Conservatives vote for them. A party is always a reflection of its base voters.
 
danarhea said:
Read the whole article, which succinctly lays out the problem with Donald Trump and his followers. True Conservatism is not dead, but is on life support. However, there are still a few Conservative voices out there in the wilderness which are fighting to cure the Republican party of it's insanity, and I thank them from the bottom of my heart.

https://www.redstate.com/kimberly_ross/2018/05/04/american-conservatives-raging-hypocrisy/
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This might seem a bit harsh, but it is my perspective. Trumpism is always the logical conclusion of where American conservatism has been heading. In the past two years conservatives have proven their liberal critics right all along, that underneath all the laughable appeals to limited government, to family values, to a professed love for the Constitution, is the fact that the raging, defining central feature of American conservatism is white resentment and xenophobia. Trumpism is exactly "True Conservatism" taken to its logical conclusion. The only difference now is that instead of hiding beneath a slight veneer of intellectualism it's exposed and in the open for all to see.

At least back in the day when conservatives talked about stuff like limited government and family values they had some intellectual base to fall back on, even though most liberals would call them on their bull****. Now they're not even trying to hide it anymore the fact that all that stuff was a complete farce.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
Of course it is. Conservatism in the United States is different than European Conservatism. It is different than what Conservatism was in the United States 50 years ago, which was different than what it was 50 years before that. Human constructs always change.
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But those are changes of gradual evolution, not whimsy. Your claim suggest something as simple as a group of people waking up tomorrow claiming to change their mind is enough to change the concept of conservatism. And that's just not true.

The Republican Party does not dictate what American Conservatism is, but rather the policies and platforms of the Republican Party are a reflection of its conservative base.
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You're begging the question.

The concept of what it means to be conservative exists outside one political party and any attempt to argue otherwise will always fail.
 
American said:
My irony meter had a nuclear meltdown. :lamo
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Ah, so the troll comes out from under his bridge today. Does that mean 6 more weeks of spring? :mrgreen:
 
danarhea said:
Ah, so the troll comes out from under his bridge today. Does that mean 6 more weeks of spring? :mrgreen:
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If I had that kind of power, you wouldn't like it. ;)
 
danarhea said:
Ah, yes, Memories Pizza, where the Clinton's supposedly held sex slaves as captives in the basement, except Memories Pizza has never had a basement. Those who call themselves evangelicals will be held to account for that too.

Exodus 20:16 - You must not testify falsely against your neighbor.
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.... well, that's ironic. :)

Memories Pizza, of course, is the name of a pizza parlor in Indiana. "Journalists" thumbed through phone-books calling local businesses during the religious-freedom debate, until they found someone who said they had no problem serving gay people, but probably wouldn't sign up to cater a gay wedding. They then turned that restaurant into clicks by making it famous for such, turning it into a victim of the online-rage-crowd, who promptly began sending them death threats, etc.

That's what the members of my Church saw. There wasn't going to be a "live and let live". They saw instead a national-left that had become anti-Christian and violent. They generally didn't like Trump at all, but it was that, or vote for the people who were going to threaten their families. :shrug:

Tribalism begat Tribalism. Sneering condescension and contempt provoked fury-driven backlash where "winning" and "liberal tears" became all that mattered. A thousand articles about how White People Were Awful fueled defense of white people in general and pride-driven White Identitarianism in particular. :shrug: Thankfully the latter didn't happen in my Church - we were hispanic, black, white, etc. - But the belief, looking at incidents like Memories Pizza, that we now lived in a land where one half of the political spectrum was actively hostile to us definitely resulted in that body voting for a man the vast majority found noxious.
 
StillBallin75 said:
This might seem a bit harsh, but it is my perspective. Trumpism is always the logical conclusion of where American conservatism has been heading. In the past two years conservatives have proven their liberal critics right all along, that underneath all the laughable appeals to limited government, to family values, to a professed love for the Constitution, is the fact that the raging, defining central feature of American conservatism is white resentment and xenophobia. Trumpism is exactly "True Conservatism" taken to its logical conclusion. The only difference now is that instead of hiding beneath a slight veneer of intellectualism it's exposed and in the open for all to see.
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Meh. That's BS. Trump remains deeply unpopular, he won the primary with a plurality of non-conservative ideologues (indeed, ideological conservatives were his longest-running opponents, and then formed the core of the NeverTrump movement) due to a fractured field, and then won the General because the Democrats (and, this is actually kind of impressive, in a Greek-Tragedy kind of way) managed to find the one candidate who could possibly lose to him. Running off with "oh well everyone who disagrees with me is a racist!" may be emotionally satisfying, but it's as intellectually shallow as Trump's troll-army's laughing about Liberal Tears and claiming that everyone who disagrees with him is some kind of anti-American "Deep State Swamp" creature :roll:
 
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