• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Rubio admits GOP tax cut is a bust:

Sen. Marco Rubio (R-FL) voted in favor of the Republican Party’s massive tax cut late last year — but now he says that there’s little evidence that handing out big breaks to corporations has significantly trickled down to American workers.

Talking with The Economist, Rubio criticizes his party for believing that large corporate tax cuts will inevitably produce windfalls for workers in the United States — and he says that so far, we haven’t seen very many corporations using their additional money to invest in their employees.

“There is still a lot of thinking on the right that if big corporations are happy, they’re going to take the money they’re saving and reinvest it in American workers,” Rubio tells the publication. “In fact they bought back shares, a few gave out bonuses; there’s no evidence whatsoever that the money’s been massively poured back into the American worker.”

Rubio also hinted that neither the GOP’s tax cut plan nor Trump’s protectionism will do much to help workers who are seeing more and more jobs disappear thanks to automation and technology.
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/04/ru...-evidence-moneys-poured-back-american-worker/

What Rubio is admitting is nothing more than what liberals were warning about and said what would happen.

Of course, if another tax-cut was offered, you can bet that Rubio would vote for it too.
 
Rubio had so much potential.

He actually cares about people. He is smart enough to see layers of ramifications and to see how the party line is at odds with things that are intelligent, responsible, ethical, compassionate, etc.

But he's so darn wobbly. He knows the GOP party line is full of bull, and the party leadership is full of liars who don't give a crap about the people that he tries to convince himself he is serving, but he's a faithful party soldier. Shows glimmers of "profile in courage" moments, but then wobbles back into line like a good little boy.

He needed a more rational party to be part of -- like the GOP from 30 years or 50 years ago. One where he could get a handful more people who were willing to stand up with him to say "hey, this doesn't make sense, let's try it again." He doesn't have what it takes to make a firm stand without back-up, and on the important, rational, responsible issues, he just doesn't get back-up from his party.


There are others in the same boat, Collins, McCain, Flake, Corker, Murkowski ... actually the numbers start adding up if they could all make a stand at once ... but they let themselves get picked off ... they make a flicker of effort toward what they claim to believe in but then say "the party leadership have promised me this concession" and they tell themselves and us that it was the best they could do and it's enough.



And then we have more of these "oh gosh, the party leadership lied again" moments.

You are awesome!
 
Last edited:
Its only been two months since new tables started being used, but how so? What did you expect within 2 months so that we can measure?
We already see that corporations are using those tax-cuts and buying back their own stock. If you can recall way back in December, proponents of the tax-cut said that workers would get the lion's share and that businesses were going to invest. There is no evidence that anything proponents said is true and lots of evidence it is false. Workers are getting a little salary boost, but you'd expect that in a tight job market. Those raises would have happened anyway.

A big buyback at Apple:

U.S. tax cuts fuel Apple's plan for $100 billion stock buyback
 
So what we know for fact is that Rubio is quoted as not accepting evidence such as the surge in employment that began w/ the corp tax cut:
txctempl.png

This is how he's been quoted, but too often these quotes are made up and Rubio may never have said anything of the sort. However if he really said this then what we know is that there's evidence but none that the extreme left are willing to face.

That graph makes it look like there was a pent up demand for workers that was released in a one month period and new hires have now plateaued. I'm not sure that we can tell ANYTHING about that in relationship to the tax cut. Just not enough data. Maybe in another year or two.
 
There is no surge in employment, in fact employment is on a par with the Obama years.
...the Bureau of Labor Statistics (graphed at https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CLF16OV#0 ) with an average employment level since Jan. 2017 showing
FIVE MILLION MORE JOBS

above the average level for the eight years prior.
Of course it may be above the average for the past 8 years.
Sounds like you're admitting (sort of) that you were totally wrong about "no surge" in employment.
If you look at the last 4-5 years of Obama, he did even better than Trump is right now...
That's so easy to say if you don't want to look. I have to look or my family starves, and the latest BLS.gov Employment level is 161,763,000 compared to the average of 2012 though 2016 at 155,522,000. In other words, what you described as Obama "did even better than Trump is right now" is in fact showing a current increase of--
5,241,000 MORE JOBS
The fact that this is an even greater increase drives home the point that we are now emerging from an abysmal economic stagnation.
 
Sounds like you're admitting (sort of) that you were totally wrong about "no surge" in employment. That's so easy to say if you don't want to look. I have to look or my family starves, and the latest BLS.gov Employment level is 161,763,000 compared to the average of 2012 though 2016 at 155,522,000. In other words, what you described as Obama "did even better than Trump is right now" is in fact showing a current increase of--
5,241,000 MORE JOBS
The fact that this is an even greater increase drives home the point that we are now emerging from an abysmal economic stagnation.

Obama did a better job creating jobs than has Trump, deal with it, cry baby
 
That graph makes it look like there was a pent up demand for workers that was released in a one month period and new hires have now plateaued. I'm not sure that we can tell ANYTHING about that in relationship to the tax cut. Just not enough data. Maybe in another year or two.

That's right. One can exaggerate a graph by making the Y-axis small increments. The reality is/was that we didn't see big job gains after the tax-cuts. Plus 175,000 in December; plus 176,000 in Jan18; plus 326,000 in Feb; and plus 103,000 in March.
Source
 
...not sure that we can tell ANYTHING about that in relationship to the tax cut...
Sure we can. It's obvious that the alleged Rubio quote "...there’s no evidence whatsoever that the money’s been massively poured back into the American worker..." is patently false. This is in fact evidence:
txctempl.png

--and whether or not you or Rubio think it's very good evidence does not change the fact that it really is evidence.



Maybe, if only the quote had been "...there’s no evidence that I want to talk about that the money’s been massively poured back into the American worker..."
 
Sounds like you're admitting (sort of) that you were totally wrong about "no surge" in employment. That's so easy to say if you don't want to look. I have to look or my family starves, and the latest BLS.gov Employment level is 161,763,000 compared to the average of 2012 though 2016 at 155,522,000. In other words, what you described as Obama "did even better than Trump is right now" is in fact showing a current increase of--
5,241,000 MORE JOBS
The fact that this is an even greater increase drives home the point that we are now emerging from an abysmal economic stagnation.

Notice the huge jump in job gains since January 2017 compared to January 2016? Me neither.

fredgraph.png
 
There is no surge in employment, in fact employment is on a par with the Obama years.

OK, you can go w/ that & I'll work w/ the Bureau of Labor Statistics (graphed at https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/CLF16OV#0 ) with an average employment level since Jan. 2017 showing

FIVE MILLION MORE JOBS​
But still no different that the trend was over that 8 year span.
Pse say more about your thoughts on 'the trend was over that 8 year span.'
 
Sure we can. It's obvious that the alleged Rubio quote "...there’s no evidence whatsoever that the money’s been massively poured back into the American worker..." is patently false. This is in fact evidence:
txctempl.png

--and whether or not you or Rubio think it's very good evidence does not change the fact that it really is evidence.



Maybe, if only the quote had been "...there’s no evidence that I want to talk about that the money’s been massively poured back into the American worker..."

Why is that graph so short then? Show me the graph over the last two or three years. Short graphs are generally intended to be deceiving.
 
Pse say more about your thoughts on 'the trend was over that 8 year span.'

I think MTAtech answered that question with a graph (although it wasn't 8 years long, it was still long enough to prove the point) in his last post.
 
Notice the huge jump in job gains since January 2017 compared to January 2016? Me neither.
fredgraph.png
The record does in fact show a slight increase--

Civilian Labor Force
2016-01-01 158,387,000
2017-01-01 159,718,000

--though imho nothing compared to what we've had since. Let's also remember that the U.S. population increased during that time by 2,316,000.
 
The record does in fact show a slight increase--

Civilian Labor Force
2016-01-01 158,387,000
2017-01-01 159,718,000

--though imho nothing compared to what we've had since. Let's also remember that the U.S. population increased during that time by 2,316,000.
The point is that a regression line from Jan-16 to Dec-16 is the same line from Jan-17 to Dec-17. This was a continued pattern, not a break due to Trump policies.
 
The record does in fact show a slight increase--

Civilian Labor Force
2016-01-01 158,387,000
2017-01-01 159,718,000

--though imho nothing compared to what we've had since. Let's also remember that the U.S. population increased during that time by 2,316,000.

What does the Civilian Labor Force have to do with anything? You do realize that it doesn't represent the number of people employed, nor is it a measure of unemployment. The CLF is more of a sociological metric than an economic metric.
 
We already see that corporations are using those tax-cuts and buying back their own stock. If you can recall way back in December, proponents of the tax-cut said that workers would get the lion's share and that businesses were going to invest. There is no evidence that anything proponents said is true and lots of evidence it is false. Workers are getting a little salary boost, but you'd expect that in a tight job market. Those raises would have happened anyway.

A big buyback at Apple:

U.S. tax cuts fuel Apple's plan for $100 billion stock buyback

Depends on which proponents youre talking about. But as I said, its too early for the most part. You know very well that businesses dont work in the short term, even though many already gave out cash payment before the rates even affected them.

Thanks to the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act Passed by the Republican Congress and Signed Into Law by President Trump, 522 Companies (and counting) Announce Pay Raises, Bonuses, 401(k) Match Increases, Expansions, and Utility Rate Cuts

https://www.atr.org/list

NO Evidence?
 
Depends on which proponents youre talking about. But as I said, its too early for the most part. You know very well that businesses dont work in the short term, even though many already gave out cash payment before the rates even affected them.

Thanks to the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act Passed by the Republican Congress and Signed Into Law by President Trump, 522 Companies (and counting) Announce Pay Raises, Bonuses, 401(k) Match Increases, Expansions, and Utility Rate Cuts

https://www.atr.org/list

NO Evidence?
You can't argue two opposite positions at the same time, such as arguing that tax-cuts improving the economy in a slow process, then assigning credit to the tax-cuts for companies increasing pay.

The reality is that companies gave announced pay raises and bonuses in 2016 also. The Trump Admin made a big deal about WalMart giving raises after the tax-cuts. They made no mention that WalMart gave 1,000,000 employees raises in 2016.

The reality is also that tax-cuts are long term affairs. The problem (discussed in this Paul Krugman piece):
You might be tempted to say that it’s too early to tell. After all, the law has been in effect for only a few months, and we got our first look at post-tax-cut economic growth only last week. But here’s the thing: To deliver on its backers’ promises, the tax cut would have to produce a huge surge in business investment — not in the long run, not five or 10 years from now, but more or less right away. And there’s no sign that anything like that is happening.

Let’s talk about the economics here.

Anything that increases the budget deficit should, other things being the same, lead to higher overall spending and a short-run bump in the economy (although there’s no indication of such a bump in the first-quarter numbers, which were underwhelming). But if you want to boost overall spending, you don’t have to give huge tax breaks to corporations. You could do lots of other things instead — say, spend money on fixing America’s crumbling infrastructure, an issue on which Trump keeps promising a plan but never delivers.
...
It never made sense to believe that corporations would immediately share their tax-cut bounty with workers, and they haven’t. Any news organizations that let themselves be bamboozled by cherry-picked stories of firms announcing worker bonuses after the tax bill passed should be ashamed of their credulity.

The real logic behind corporate tax cuts is that they’re supposed to lead to higher investment. This investment, in turn, would gradually increase the stock of capital, simultaneously driving down the pretax rate of return on investment and pushing up wages.
...
But the other, equally important question is, how long is the long run? As Greg Leiserson of the Washington Center for Equitable Growth points out, “every month in which wage rates are not sharply higher than they would have been absent the legislation, and investment returns are not sharply lower, is a month in which the benefits of those corporate tax cuts accrue primarily to shareholders.”
 
A current Republican told the truth. I'm shocked.
 
You can't argue two opposite positions at the same time, such as arguing that tax-cuts improving the economy in a slow process, then assigning credit to the tax-cuts for companies increasing pay.

The reality is that companies gave announced pay raises and bonuses in 2016 also. The Trump Admin made a big deal about WalMart giving raises after the tax-cuts. They made no mention that WalMart gave 1,000,000 employees raises in 2016.

The reality is also that tax-cuts are long term affairs. The problem (discussed in this Paul Krugman piece):

Im arguing against the idea that there is no evidence. Not that that evidence conclusively proves anything. There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that the tax cut has had immediate effects. Whether it will produce all the benefits promised or expected is yet to be seen.

Also, Krugman is as biased as everyone else. If he wants to come here and debate he is welcome to, but he is not a credible authority. Much like Rubio, hes only used when he confirms bias.
 
Im arguing against the idea that there is no evidence. Not that that evidence conclusively proves anything. There is plenty of evidence to support the idea that the tax cut has had immediate effects. Whether it will produce all the benefits promised or expected is yet to be seen.

Also, Krugman is as biased as everyone else. If he wants to come here and debate he is welcome to, but he is not a credible authority. Much like Rubio, hes only used when he confirms bias.
A) I don't see where there "is plenty of evidence to support the idea that the tax cut has had immediate effects." There has been no growth in job numbers compared to pre-tax-cut periods; GDP also are more of the same; and, raises are showing the same pattern with previous years.

B) While Dr. Krugman has his bias, he is also a well-respected and credentialed Nobel Prize winning economist and is indeed a credible authority. If you want to take issue with his detailed points in the link, you are welcome to do so, instead of taking the lazy way out and just dismissing summarily.

C) I am perplexed at you suggestion that in order for someone to cite a source, that source needs to join Debate Politics and make the case first-hand. Under those conditions, few would be able to cite anything.
 
A) I don't see where there "is plenty of evidence to support the idea that the tax cut has had immediate effects." There has been no growth in job numbers compared to pre-tax-cut periods; GDP also are more of the same; and, raises are showing the same pattern with previous years.

B) While Dr. Krugman has his bias, he is also a well-respected and credentialed Nobel Prize winning economist and is indeed a credible authority. If you want to take issue with his detailed points in the link, you are welcome to do so, instead of taking the lazy way out and just dismissing summarily.

C) I am perplexed at you suggestion that in order for someone to cite a source, that source needs to join Debate Politics and make the case first-hand. Under those conditions, few would be able to cite anything.

I posted over 500 immediate effects. Thats evidence.

2. If Krugman wants to come here, hes welcome to. I dont accept him as any more of an authority than you. Make youre argument, provide facts and logic to back it. Thats debate, not appealing to others.

B. GDP is not more of the same. Its only been 2 months, but Q1 shows twice the growth of the last two years Q1. And itll likely be revised up as they typically do. But we'll see.

gdp1q18_adv_chart.png
 
Back
Top Bottom