Probable that Russians did not help Trump win

CriticalThought · Feb 17, 2018

Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

Oborosen · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

A lot of us have noticed the same, though I think most of the narrative here was latched onto all of the allegations that have yet to be proven. Much less information that is readily available, or easily discernible from data we already have access to.

There is a possibility of them actually having a larger presence, as they always have had one. Yet that presence has yet and will probably remain largely ineffective in general.

shrubnose · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

Oborosen said:
A lot of us have noticed the same, though I think most of the narrative here was latched onto all of the allegations that have yet to be proven. Much less information that is readily available, or easily discernible from data we already have access to.

There is a possibility of them actually having a larger presence, as they always have had one. Yet that presence has yet and will probably remain largely ineffective in general.

Click to expand...

Since the USA's congress hasn't been able to pass immigration legislation despite years of eeffort I see no reason to believe they'll ever do this.

Maybe we need some new people there,eh?Just sayin'.

Oborosen · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

shrubnose said:
Since the USA's congress hasn't been able to pass immigration legislation despite years of eeffort I see no reason to believe they'll ever do this.

Maybe we need some new people there,eh?Just sayin'.

Not sure at this point. The current knowledge that we have on the Russian's involvement extends to off ear allegations, wild speculation and evidence that shows, at most. They were only keeping a close eye on what was going on during the election.

We have information on the whole meme war fiasco, which was a hilarious waste of time. Seeing as the memes were either nondescript, or didn't favor one candidate over the other in their majority. The few times that hacks actually penetrated our security, nothing was notably changed and it is only shown that information was observed. The we have that incident of someone actually getting tricked by a "fishing" link and getting their system compromised. Though most of the hacks are claimed to be by the group "Cozy Bear". The people who believe this, are still not entirely sure that is who it actually is.

The entire group, has almost entirely lost site of its own duties.

If it were up to me, I would at least remove. Or at the very most, review the career's of those that Comey coincided with during his tenure. as director. Seeing as stuff like this usually spreads from a central source and he was his own source of problems in the group.

But maybe a station wide reassignment is necessary. Especially given the stupidity that we have seen exhibited by most government stations in the last 4 years.

DaveFagan · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

The more likely cause is that the MIC and CIA and most warmongering Intelligence Agencies need this controversial issue to pad their budgets with income generated by fear and do everything in their power to stoke those fears. Investigate everyone who donated to political oriented advertising/manipulation including AIPAC, the Atlantic Council, think tanks, MultiMational Corporations, Banks and others who's coffers are linked to campaign donations. That or quit wasting our time inventing devils to move monies.
/

haymarket · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

The silly claim that nobody can prove the Trump use of Russian interference did not get him votes is base on a false premise: the false premise is that nothing done in a political campaign gets any votes. One would have to believe that to invoke the claim that Trumps use of the Russian interference did not get him votes .

And of course, every campaigning politician since the beginning of elections in our nation functions on the OPPOSITE belief.... they believe that it is the act of campaigning that does get them votes and does make the difference between winning and losing elections. That is the belief that underpins every thing they do in campaigning.

Trump invoked wikileaks over 160 times in the last month of the campaign. The wikileaks material came from the Russians illegally interfering in our election. And Trump used it over and over and over and over and over again shouting loudly that he loved wikileaks and wanted more.

Of course it had an effect on voters and their votes . To believe otherwise would be subscribing to a willful delusion bordering on intentional mental unbalance.

holbritter · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

I really don't remember any additional political back and forth, advertisements, messages against one another, all that political stuff, at all. So I don't see how they could have persuaded anything. I saw the same negative ads every freaking commercial break, that I see every time it's election time.

code1211 · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

This is buried deep in the NY Times story on the indictment just before the end of the piece:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/16/us/politics/russians-indicted-mueller-election-interference.html
<snip>
After the election, the Russians kept up their efforts to foment dissent.

In November, they staged two rallies in New York on the same day.

One had the theme, “Show your support for President-Elect Trump.” The other was called, “Trump is NOT my President.”

The indictment does not say that Russia changed the outcome of the election, a fact that Mr. Rosenstein noted repeatedly.

American intelligence officials have said they have no way of calculating the effect of the Russian influence.
<snip>

code1211 · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

haymarket said:
The silly claim that nobody can prove the Trump use of Russian interference did not get him votes is base on a false premise: the false premise is that nothing done in a political campaign gets any votes. One would have to believe that to invoke the claim that Trumps use of the Russian interference did not get him votes .

And of course, every campaigning politician since the beginning of elections in our nation functions on the OPPOSITE belief.... they believe that it is the act of campaigning that does get them votes and does make the difference between winning and losing elections. That is the belief that underpins every thing they do in campaigning.

Trump invoked wikileaks over 160 times in the last month of the campaign. The wikileaks material came from the Russians illegally interfering in our election. And Trump used it over and over and over and over and over again shouting loudly that he loved wikileaks and wanted more.

Of course it had an effect on voters and their votes . To believe otherwise would be subscribing to a willful delusion bordering on intentional mental unbalance.

Not to put too fine a point on this, but Wikileaks said the material did not come from the Russians.

The Russians said that the material did not come from the Russians.

What is your source that is more likely to understand the source of this stuff that is closer to the situation than Wikileaks and the Russians?

haymarket · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

code1211 said:
Not to put too fine a point on this, but Wikileaks said the material did not come from the Russians.

The Russians said that the material did not come from the Russians.

What is your source that is more likely to understand the source of this stuff that is closer to the situation than Wikileaks and the Russians?

And you believe that?

My source is the Intelligence Reports and opinions of the American intelligence community. On December 9, 2016, the CIA told U.S. legislators that the U.S. Intelligence Community concluded Russia conducted operations during the 2016 U.S. election to help Trump get elected and prevent Hillary Clinton from winning the presidency. Multiple U.S intelligence agencies concluded people with direct ties to the Kremlin gave WikiLeaks hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee.

And that became the Wikileaks material that Trump invoked over 160 times in the last month of the campaign.

code1211 · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

haymarket said:
And you believe that?

My source is the Intelligence Reports and opinions of the American intelligence community. On December 9, 2016, the CIA told U.S. legislators that the U.S. Intelligence Community concluded Russia conducted operations during the 2016 U.S. election to help Trump get elected and prevent Hillary Clinton from winning the presidency. Multiple U.S intelligence agencies concluded people with direct ties to the Kremlin gave WikiLeaks hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee.

And that became the Wikileaks material that Trump invoked over 160 times in the last month of the campaign.

Our spies are an embarrassment.

They also thought the famous Dossier was a real document with real intelligence.

These are the same folks that brought us the Bay of Pigs, the Shah of Iran and Iraq's WMD.

What possible reason is there to think these jokers are infallible? If anything, we are cautioned to suspect anything they say or assert.

Clapper and Brennan have been shown to be political pawns.

Blind allegiance to the police is a great foundation on which to build a police state.

Kal'Stang · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

One thing that is occasionally mentioned, but often whitewashed is the fact that these Russians attacked, and supported, both Trump and Hillary. Their goal was not to support any specific candidate. But to cause discord. That was their main goal. So, unless Trump was in on this I see it as useless to lay the blame on Trump. Particularly in light of the fact that this whole thing was nothing more than an information/disinformation tactic. In point of fact it is the same tactic used by every single politician that is in office right this very minute.

Kal'Stang · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

haymarket said:
And you believe that?

My source is the Intelligence Reports and opinions of the American intelligence community. On December 9, 2016, the CIA told U.S. legislators that the U.S. Intelligence Community concluded Russia conducted operations during the 2016 U.S. election to help Trump get elected and prevent Hillary Clinton from winning the presidency. Multiple U.S intelligence agencies concluded people with direct ties to the Kremlin gave WikiLeaks hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee.

And that became the Wikileaks material that Trump invoked over 160 times in the last month of the campaign.

What's ironic about all those wikileaks is that not one bit of it was shown to be false. If it was damaging to Hillary/democrats, then its because there was damaging info. There would be no damaging info if Hillary and the democrats had been on the up and up from the very beginning.

CriticalThought · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

Kal'Stang said:
One thing that is occasionally mentioned, but often whitewashed is the fact that these Russians attacked, and supported, both Trump and Hillary. Their goal was not to support any specific candidate. But to cause discord. That was their main goal. So, unless Trump was in on this I see it as useless to lay the blame on Trump. Particularly in light of the fact that this whole thing was nothing more than an information/disinformation tactic. In point of fact it is the same tactic used by every single politician that is in office right this very minute.

Um...no. The indictments were pretty clear. The goal was that Clinton not win.

CriticalThought · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

Kal'Stang said:
What's ironic about all those wikileaks is that not one bit of it was shown to be false. If it was damaging to Hillary/democrats, then its because there was damaging info. There would be no damaging info if Hillary and the democrats had been on the up and up from the very beginning.

Like Pizzagate and Clinton murders?

Kal'Stang · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
Um...no. The indictments were pretty clear. The goal was that Clinton not win.

Actually the goal was to cause discord. When they started out they targeted Hillary for support and attack also. After awhile when the political situation became more clear they put in more effort to help Trump win while denigrating Hillary. Why? Because Trump was considered an "outsider". An outsider is often considered to be disruptive. Hence they backed Trump. Not because he was Trump. But because they saw it as an opportunity to create more discord.

Again, the goal was to cause discord. Not support either candidate.

CriticalThought said:
Like Pizzagate and Clinton murders?

Pizzagate conspiracy theory

Genesis

This conspiracy theory emerged near the end of the 2016 United States presidential election cycle. On October 30, 2016, a white supremacist Twitter account included a display of a claim that the New York City Police Department, which was searching emails found on Anthony Weiner's laptop as part of an investigation into his sexting scandals, had discovered the existence of a pedophilia ring linked to members of the Democratic Party.[8][3] Internet users reading John Podesta's emails released by Wikileaks in early November 2016 speculated that some words in Podesta's emails were code words for pedophilia and human trafficking.[2][9] The theory also proposed that the ring was a meeting ground for satanic ritual abuse.[10]

The theory was then posted on the message board Godlike Productions. The following day, the story was repeated on YourNewsWire citing a 4chan post from earlier that year.[8] Adl-Tabatabai's story was then spread by and elaborated on by other fake news websites, including SubjectPolitics, which falsely claimed the New York Police Department had raided Hillary Clinton's property.[8] The website Conservative Daily Post ran a headline falsely stating that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had confirmed that story.[11]

Not wikileaks fault that conspiracy theorists tried to make a claim that wikileaks never made.

As for the murders wikileaks offered a reward leading to information on the killer of Seth Richards. But as of yet they have not claimed to know who the killer is.

haymarket · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

code1211 said:
Our spies are an embarrassment.

They also thought the famous Dossier was a real document with real intelligence.

These are the same folks that brought us the Bay of Pigs, the Shah of Iran and Iraq's WMD.

What possible reason is there to think these jokers are infallible? If anything, we are cautioned to suspect anything they say or assert.

Clapper and Brennan have been shown to be political pawns.

Blind allegiance to the police is a great foundation on which to build a police state.

So far, they have been right on the money about Trump and the Russians.

Rogue Valley · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

Kal'Stang said:
Actually the goal was to cause discord.

The Russians had a multiplicity of goals. Sowing discord and chaos was one of their goals.

The overarching goal was to assist Trump to the detriment of Clinton...

DNI | Background to “Assessing Russian Activities and Intentions in Recent US Elections” The Analytic Process and Cyber Incident Attribution

Putin’s aim was to impugn Hillary Clinton’s credibility and boost Donald Trump’s chances of winning the election, and more broadly to make the US electoral system look shady and untrustworthy.

danielpalos · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

I would like to blame the Department of Education; but the right wing already got their tax cut.

haymarket · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

Kal'Stang said:
What's ironic about all those wikileaks is that not one bit of it was shown to be false. If it was damaging to Hillary/democrats, then its because there was damaging info. There would be no damaging info if Hillary and the democrats had been on the up and up from the very beginning.

What exactly was that damaging info Trump boasted about in the wikileaks material obtained from the Russians?

Carleen · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

CriticalThought said:
The electoral college win for Trump was determined by 77,744 votes in key states. In an election where 139,000,000 people voted, that amounts to less than .0005% of the vote. Given the coordinated and extensive efforts by Russian foreign nationals that was detailed in Mueller's indictments, it seems improbable to me that they did not influnce hundreds of thousands of people in key states to come out to vote for Trump and disenfranchise many to stay home or vote third party rather than vote for Clinton.

It seems at least statistically plausible that Trump is president today because of these efforts.

Now aside from this all being a "fake news, nothing burger, that isn't illegal, and which Hillary/Obama did far worse, and anyone who cares is just a sore loser", what does it say about our system that it is statistically plausible that a covert foriegn national operation could influence a major election?

If they did, could we ever agree on it long enough to do anything about it?

I am still wondering why Trump has consistently called this a hoax and has yet to enforce the unanimous vote to impose sanctions on Russia. As president when the evidence has been proven on Russian involvement in the election he should be condemning them and let them know we will not tolerate this. Why is he saying nothing? There has to be a reason and it can’t be a good one.

code1211 · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

haymarket said:
So far, they have been right on the money about Trump and the Russians.

In what way?

There has been no evidence presented to support any connection between Russian meddling and Trump or the election outcomes.

The investigation has turned away from the collusion investigation to the obstruction of justice investigation.

Obstructing the investigation in to something that never happened seems like a stretch.

haymarket · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

code1211 said:
In what way?

There has been no evidence presented to support any connection between Russian meddling and Trump or the election outcomes.

The investigation has turned away from the collusion investigation to the obstruction of justice investigation.

Obstructing the investigation in to something that never happened seems like a stretch.

These four facts - at the bare minimum - have been established beyond all dispute

1- Trump invited the Russians to help him in his campaign. Video from July of 2016 in Pennsylvania proves this beyond any doubt.

2- The Russians did indeed respond and help Trump in his campaign which is a violation of federal law. The Intelligence reports and federal indictments prove this beyond any doubt.

3- Top Trump campaign persons colluded with the Russians to get their illegal help thus violation the federal law prohibiting such things. The emails from Donald Jr and the attendance at the meeting proves this beyond any doubt.

4- Trump openly confessed to trying to thwart the investigation into the above activities and thereby committed obstruction of justice. The Lester Holt confession proves this beyond any doubt.

code1211 · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

Carleen said:
I am still wondering why Trump has consistently called this a hoax and has yet to enforce the unanimous vote to impose sanctions on Russia. As president when the evidence has been proven on Russian involvement in the election he should be condemning them and let them know we will not tolerate this. Why is he saying nothing? There has to be a reason and it can’t be a good one.

So the evil Trump is not enforcing sanctions that the EU will not enforce, either?

So he needs to prove that he never did what he never did?

Guilty until proven innocent?

Is that some new standard in our jurisprudence?

code1211 · Feb 17, 2018

Re: Plausible that Russians did help Trump win

haymarket said:
These four facts - at the bare minimum - have been established beyond all dispute

1- Trump invited the Russians to help him in his campaign. Video from July of 2016 in Pennsylvania proves this beyond any doubt.

2- The Russians did indeed respond and help Trump in his campaign which is a violation of federal law. The Intelligence reports and federal indictments prove this beyond any doubt.

3- Top Trump campaign persons colluded with the Russians to get their illegal help thus violation the federal law prohibiting such things. The emails from Donald Jr and the attendance at the meeting proves this beyond any doubt.

4- Trump openly confessed to trying to thwart the investigation into the above activities and thereby committed obstruction of justice. The Lester Holt confession proves this beyond any doubt.

The thing in point one was a JOKE. Your willing acceptance of this JOKE is a JOKE.

Your second point needs a link.

Trump Jr. attended the meeting to get dirt, found none and left. What are you smoking?

Your fourth point needs a link and a cut and paste of whatever the heck you're imagining.

Out of curiosity, just to gauge your gullibility and the extremity of your bias, how do you feel about the Tarmac meeting between Clinton and Lynch?

Probable that Russians did not help Trump win

CriticalThought

Oborosen

Doctor D

shrubnose

Oborosen

Doctor D

DaveFagan

Iconoclast

haymarket

holbritter

code1211

code1211

haymarket

code1211

Kal'Stang

Kal'Stang

CriticalThought

CriticalThought

Kal'Stang

haymarket

Rogue Valley

Lead or get out of the way

danielpalos

haymarket

Carleen

code1211

haymarket

code1211

code1211