Why Do Many So-Called 'Libertarians' On DP Support Trump?

In all honesty, I really don't think they know what a libertarian is. Here's a clue: It is not Trump's policies.

-There is nothing libertarian about increasing the budget on an already bloated military

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting to militarize the local police departments

-There is nothing libertarian about giving the most anti-marijuana senator the position of attorney general

-There is nothing libertarian about Trump's trade policies

-There is nothing libertarian about his support for dictators like Duterte, Putin, and Erdogan

-There is nothing libertarian about banning certain groups from visiting/moving to the US

-There is nothing libertarian about demanding the closure of mosques

-There is nothing libertarian about saying the 1st Amendment allows too much free speech

-There is nothing libertarian about eminent domain abuse

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting more power


I get it that it is 'cool' for conservatives/Republicans these days to call themselves 'libertarian.' So much cooler than going along with the neocon, now. However, actions speak louder than labels, and most right-libertarians these days are nothing like Hayekians, Rothbardians, or even Paulites of recent years.

Geoist said:

In all honesty, I really don't think they know what a libertarian is. Here's a clue: It is not Trump's policies.

-There is nothing libertarian about increasing the budget on an already bloated military

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting to militarize the local police departments

-There is nothing libertarian about giving the most anti-marijuana senator the position of attorney general

-There is nothing libertarian about Trump's trade policies

-There is nothing libertarian about his support for dictators like Duterte, Putin, and Erdogan

-There is nothing libertarian about banning certain groups from visiting/moving to the US

-There is nothing libertarian about demanding the closure of mosques

-There is nothing libertarian about saying the 1st Amendment allows too much free speech

-There is nothing libertarian about eminent domain abuse

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting more power


I get it that it is 'cool' for conservatives/Republicans these days to call themselves 'libertarian.' So much cooler than going along with the neocon, now. However, actions speak louder than labels, and most right-libertarians these days are nothing like Hayekians, Rothbardians, or even Paulites of recent years.

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It's very hard to find a libertarian these days who is not a full on trumpster. Basically 99% of libertarians want to go against the system. That's their only platform and they weigh everything up to that belief. Oh, pot is illegal, but seems fine? Let's push for that! Oh, US is in a war? Let's be against that! Oh telling people what to do in the bedroom? No, let's be against that! Oh increase of police presence? No Let's be against that! Oh racists marching in the streets? Let's not care about them! Oh The Federal Reserve is really big? Let's shut it down! And my favorite: Oh Lobbyists control everything? Let's get rid of them!

Being a libertarian is one of the most cowardly ideologies that has ever been concocted. At least Trumpsters defend Trump no matter what. They have one guiding principle. Even non-aggression which lots of libertarians like to spout off about doesn't work, especially when arguing about politics with them :mrgreen:

Because this government is huge and has been getting huger.... it is incompetent....Trump if nothing else is shaking things up and shrinking government.

That is better than anyone else has been offering.

NeverTrumpGOP said:

It's very hard to find a libertarian these days who is not a full on trumpster. Basically 99% of libertarians want to go against the system. That's their only platform and they weigh everything up to that belief. Oh, pot is illegal, but seems fine? Let's push for that! Oh, US is in a war? Let's be against that! Oh telling people what to do in the bedroom? No, let's be against that! Oh increase of police presence? No Let's be against that! Oh racists marching in the streets? Let's not care about them! Oh The Federal Reserve is really big? Let's shut it down! And my favorite: Oh Lobbyists control everything? Let's get rid of them!

Being a libertarian is one of the most cowardly ideologies that has ever been concocted. At least Trumpsters defend Trump no matter what. They have one guiding principle. Even non-aggression which lots of libertarians like to spout off about doesn't work, especially when arguing about politics with them :mrgreen:

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What you have described are contrarians, not libertarians. And while I am a major critic of right-libertarians of almost every breed, I do give them kudos when they are correct (especially on the issues of militarism and free speech). I think many of the 'libertarians' on DP just agree with libertarians on a couple issues (like pot, prostitution, or driving w/out a seatbelt) and therefore call themselves 'libertarian' because of it, but then go pretty much authoritarian on everything else.

Hawkeye10 said:

Because this government is huge and has been getting huger.... it is incompetent....Trump if nothing else is shaking things up and shrinking government.

That is better than anyone else has been offering.

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Trying to centralize power is not shrinking government. Just because you decide not to hold corporations liable for the damage they do and give them a tax break doesn't make you a libertarian.

Geoist said:

What you have described are contrarians, not libertarians. And while I am a major critic of right-libertarians of almost every breed, I do give them kudos when they are correct (especially on the issues of militarism and free speech). I think many of the 'libertarians' on DP just agree with libertarians on a couple issues (like pot, prostitution, or driving w/out a seatbelt) and therefore call themselves 'libertarian' because of it, but then go pretty much authoritarian on everything else.

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I should not complain since I am like that too with Republicans, but libertarians were at one point very annoying to me. I am very status quo and traditional and do not like this go against the man attitude that has become rampant in the republican/libertarian base. The ideas, and the people who support those ideas do not in any way appeal to me at all.

There's not much that separates them from fringe leftists in my book.

Geoist said:

In all honesty, I really don't think they know what a libertarian is. Here's a clue: It is not Trump's policies.

-There is nothing libertarian about increasing the budget on an already bloated military

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting to militarize the local police departments

-There is nothing libertarian about giving the most anti-marijuana senator the position of attorney general

-There is nothing libertarian about Trump's trade policies

-There is nothing libertarian about his support for dictators like Duterte, Putin, and Erdogan

-There is nothing libertarian about banning certain groups from visiting/moving to the US

-There is nothing libertarian about demanding the closure of mosques

-There is nothing libertarian about saying the 1st Amendment allows too much free speech

-There is nothing libertarian about eminent domain abuse

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting more power


I get it that it is 'cool' for conservatives/Republicans these days to call themselves 'libertarian.' So much cooler than going along with the neocon, now. However, actions speak louder than labels, and most right-libertarians these days are nothing like Hayekians, Rothbardians, or even Paulites of recent years.

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My version of libertarian would align more with Hoppe than anyone you mentioned. I'm in favor of Trump over other politicians because he shows (or at least says) he wants to shrink bureaucracy and lobbying corrupt politicians, among many other things. It's sort of not fair to say people BROADLY support every single one of Trump's policies (what kind of drone supports EVERYTHING a single politician has said). It's more about supporting more of what Trump says as opposed to what the current Democratic narrative is proposing. The current condition of the libertarian party as a political movement seems to just be "dude, weed lmao" instead of any actual realistically applicable policy.

So yes in conclusion Trump says a lot of stuff that would contradict a libertarians perspective or view point but he also says a lot of stuff that would be in the best interest of right libertarians.

Geoist said:

Trying to centralize power is not shrinking government. Just because you decide not to hold corporations liable for the damage they do and give them a tax break doesn't make you a libertarian.

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Trump working to end the states supporting criminal behavior is not centralizing power it is supporting law and order, and Trump the so called authoritarian is actually shrinking both the headcount and the power of government to include its funding....libertarians call that winning.

Why Do Many So-Called 'Libertarians' On DP Support Trump?

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because we all are artificially limited to a binary choice. likewise, independents who want to vote against Trump have only one viable option at this point. that doesn't seem to be an ideal path to a sustainable democracy, in my opinion.

NeverTrumpGOP said:

I should not complain since I am like that too with Republicans, but libertarians were at one point very annoying to me.

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Yes, I do remember the days of your Rand Paul threads.

I am very status quo and traditional and do not like this go against the man attitude that has become rampant in the republican/libertarian base. The ideas, and the people who support those ideas do not in any way appeal to me at all.

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Alright, I can respect that. I don't relate to it, but I respect it. I will be the first to say that certain libertarians go way too far on things (objectivists and anarcho-capitalists come to mind). I could do a whole thread on the reasons why I disconnected from the mainstream libertarians and became a left-libertarian and one day I probably will. The anti-union, anti-democracy, and privatize-everything views drive me nuts.

There's not much that separates them from fringe leftists in my book.

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Well, you are not off with that thought, in my opinion. There is a lot of overlap between the anti-authoritarian left and anti-authoritarian right on issues. In fact, libertarianism was considered a leftist position from the early 19th century through the mid-20th century. Libertarians are still pretty left-leaning in most other countries. It is just America where much of the libertarian crowd are pro-capitalist and therefore right-leaning.

Hawkeye10 said:

Because this government is huge and has been getting huger.... it is incompetent....Trump if nothing else is shaking things up and shrinking government.

That is better than anyone else has been offering.

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Utility Man said:

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This is not grade school.

And if Trump hasn't drained the swamp, he's at least inspired a lot of it to drain itself. As the Post notes, more than 71,000 career government employees have left their jobs since Trump was inaugurated—a higher number than in the first year of previous administrations, suggesting that frustration with the slow transition process or an unwillingness to serve under such a polarizing president is part of the explanation.

"Morale has never been lower," Tony Reardon, president of the National Treasury Employees Union, which represents 150,000 federal workers at more than 30 agencies, told the Post. "Government is making itself a lot less attractive as an employer."

Good! If government is a less attractive destination for America's best and brightest, that means those people will put their considerable skills to work in other areas of the economy—areas where they will produce value, rather than consuming tax dollars earned by others.

In the end, it doesn't matter too much whether a reduction in the size of the federal workforce is happening because of Trump's deliberate efforts or as a consequence of his ineptitude. It's probably a little of both. Regardless, it's a bit of good news at the start of the year and a trend that will hopefully continue into 2018.

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The Incredible Shrinking Trump Administration - Hit & Run : Reason.com

Koke said:

My version of libertarian would align more with Hoppe than anyone you mentioned.

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Ah, so you are a neo-feudalist. Hayek, Mises, and Rothbard are the top three figures most right-libertarians identify with. Hoppe tends to be more divisive, even amongst right-libs.

I'm in favor of Trump over other politicians because he shows (or at least says) he wants to shrink bureaucracy and lobbying corrupt politicians, among many other things.

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Every Republican says he wants to shrink bureaucracy. Some liked Trump simply because he said it more loudly and crassly than other Republicans.

It's sort of not fair to say people BROADLY support every single one of Trump's policies (what kind of drone supports EVERYTHING a single politician has said).

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Trump supporters are pretty much the closest thing to drones I've seen in America. Many might say they don't really support a policy or two when pushed on the subject, but they are very rabid in their support thanks to their hatred for the media and liberals and will not openly oppose the president on an issue for fear of it making him look weak. That, to me as a libertarian, is dangerous.

The current condition of the libertarian party as a political movement seems to just be "dude, weed lmao" instead of any actual realistically applicable policy.

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Although I think that is an oversimplification, I do agree the LP is a joke.

So yes in conclusion Trump says a lot of stuff that would contradict a libertarians perspective or view point but he also says a lot of stuff that would be in the best interest of right libertarians.

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The only things he's done that right-libertarians would agree on are the very same things other Republican presidents would have done. On the issues/positions he takes that are anti-libertarian he takes a hard turn into authoritarian territory... so how is this good for any libertarian?

Hawkeye10 said:

Trump working to end the states supporting criminal behavior is not centralizing power it is supporting law and order,

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Trying to undermine the authority of the other branches/departments and bully them into doing his bidding is not American law and order... more like Turkish law and order.

and Trump the so called authoritarian is actually shrinking both the headcount and the power of government to include its funding....libertarians call that winning.

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He is more than happy to shrink the power of others... but would only seek to expand his own.

Geoist said:

Trying to undermine the authority of the other branches/departments and bully them into doing his bidding is not American law and order... more like Turkish law and order.




He is more than happy to shrink the power of others... but would only seek to expand his own.

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Pretty much every President who has sat in the chair over my lifetime has once he got there found out that the Power of the Presidency is far less than they had figured.... and you want to paint Trump as Erdoğan?

Surely you are not arguing seriously..

You wouldn't know it from viewing policy through the prism of the president's Twitter feed, which is filled with cajoling and insult toward the legislative branch, but Trump has on multiple occasions taken an executive-branch power-grab and kicked the issue back to Congress, where it belongs. As detailed here last month, the president has taken this approach on Iran sanctions, Obamacare subsidies, and the Deferred Action Against Childhood Arrivals program (DACA), at minimum. And notably, his one Supreme Court nominee, Neil Gorsuch, was most famous pre-appointment for rejecting the deference that courts have in recent decades given to executive-branch regulatory agencies interpreting the statutory language of legislators.

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Is Donald Trump, of All Presidents, Devolving Power Back to the Legislative Branch? - Hit & Run : Reason.com

On this forum a few years back, I discovered that a lot of right-libertarians had this thing about brown and black people. I couldn't quite put my finger on it.....

Geoist said:

Ah, so you are a neo-feudalist. Hayek, Mises, and Rothbard are the top three figures most right-libertarians identify with. Hoppe tends to be more divisive, even amongst right-libs.

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Again, I said my views would align closer with Hoppe. That does not mean I agree with his version of anarcho-capitalism or "neo-feudalism". I think a particular divide he draws with other libertarians that I agree with is how he speaks about immigration... but this thread isn't about discussing Hoppean libertarian philosophy.

Every Republican says he wants to shrink bureaucracy. Some liked Trump simply because he said it more loudly and crassly than other Republicans.

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This points more to a broken system than anything and it's why I abhor 80% of the spineless neoconservatives as well. I think one could objectively say, however, that Trump is much more in favor of shrinking the power and outreach of the state than a Bernie Sanders or even Hillary Clinton. I don't think you're being intellectually honest saying otherwise.

Trump supporters are pretty much the closest thing to drones I've seen in America. Many might say they don't really support a policy or two when pushed on the subject, but they are very rabid in their support thanks to their hatred for the media and liberals and will not openly oppose the president on an issue for fear of it making him look weak. That, to me as a libertarian, is dangerous.

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If you think Trump supporters on principles are a greater threat to you in the sense that they are in more favor of state power or oppression, you would be wrong. The side more aggressively pushing the state are liberals and progressives who use their polarized voting blocs to enforce a larger state. The demographic information would agree with me too, as Trump achieved the plurality of white male votes who, disproportionately, are in favor of a smaller state and smaller government. From this information you could infer that Trump supporters on principle generally voted for the candidate who wanted to shrink the size of government and its outreach.

The only things he's done that right-libertarians would agree on are the very same things other Republican presidents would have done. On the issues/positions he takes that are anti-libertarian he takes a hard turn into authoritarian territory... so how is this good for any libertarian?

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For reasons I mentioned above a lot of it can be broken down into a "lesser of two evils" argument. I think that Americans voted for Trump mostly on the matter of economics. Trump parrots some traditional hardline conservative opinions to appease certain voting blocs as any politician does but if you look at actual policy I would say that he's far cry from the statist that Hillary or Bernie would've turned out to be.

Hawkeye10 said:

Pretty much every President who has sat in the chair over my lifetime has once he got there found out that the Power of the Presidency is far less than they had figured.... and you want to paint Trump as Erdoğan?

Surely you are not arguing seriously..

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I did not say he is Erdogan. I am saying he wants to be Erdogan.

Geoist said:

I did not say he is Erdogan. I am saying he wants to be Erdogan.

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Well you are wrong and even if he did he cant so what is the point of this day dream of yours?

Geoist said:

In all honesty, I really don't think they know what a libertarian is. Here's a clue: It is not Trump's policies.

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting more power


I get it that it is 'cool' for conservatives/Republicans these days to call themselves 'libertarian.' So much cooler than going along with the neocon, now. However, actions speak louder than labels, and most right-libertarians these days are nothing like Hayekians, Rothbardians, or even Paulites of recent years.

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First...you should start with what you mean by 'support'. I didnt vote for Trump. Unfortunately, the Libertarian candidate was such a complete ****ing clown and set the party back 30 years so I couldnt vote for him either.
Now...

-Do I support the presidency/ yes. Cuz...well...I am an American.
-Do I support an already bloated military. I have said they should cut the defense budget, starting with a revamping of contracting procedures. I support an effective and efficient military. I'll trust Mad Dog to tell me what that looks like right now.
-Do I support allowing police forces the tools to fight a bunch of violent assholes that are taking to the streets and rioting? **** yes. Only an asswipe would equate giving the police effective tools to defend themselves and others to 'militarizing' the police departments. As long as they arent abusing that equipment...**** yes. Give them tanks with water cannons. You want to protest...follow the law of the land.
-Nope...I dont support him on marijuana laws. The fed should decriminalize it and let the states do their thing.
-Trade policies...the jury is out, but making US trade policies 'America First' are absolutely Libertarian in scope.
-Dictators...come on...just how ****ing corrupt would you say the author in that idiotic NPR piece is by claiming Trump supports Kim? Yopu lose massive credibility when you cite stupid **** like that.
-Again...how ****ing stupid does the author you cite have to be to try to equate banning travel from 7 nation/states identified by the previous administration as unwilling and/or unable to participate in vetting processes? It is ludicrous...was then...remains so...to claim that banning people from 7 states with a high terror threat that will not or cannot adequately support vetting while allowing 43 other Majority Muslim nations free travel including the VAST VAST majority of the worlds Muslim population as a Muslim ban. Stupid. Just ****ing stupid.
-Your dishonest citations are really piling up. He isnt 'closing Mosques'...he said there may be no choice but to close mosques were fundamentalist extremism is being pushed.
-Eminent domain...nope...not down with that. Wasnt for it when the last president did it either.
-The 'power' citation is just more anti Trump stupidity. But sure...we can agree that the president powers should be limited by the Constitution.

SO then you get to ask why so many 'libertarians' would vote democrat or support democrat policies. Health care...thats not a Libertarian philosophy. Bigger government? Get da **** out. MORE taxes? Seriously. Doubling the accumulated national debt? Nope. Pressing asinine social policies ? Certainly not Libertarian. Forcing businesses to sell to ANYONE? What kind of 'Libertarian' would defend that practice?An out of control fed that is spying on its own citizens? No way.

Geoist said:

In all honesty, I really don't think they know what a libertarian is. Here's a clue: It is not Trump's policies.

-There is nothing libertarian about increasing the budget on an already bloated military

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting to militarize the local police departments

-There is nothing libertarian about giving the most anti-marijuana senator the position of attorney general

-There is nothing libertarian about Trump's trade policies

-There is nothing libertarian about his support for dictators like Duterte, Putin, and Erdogan

-There is nothing libertarian about banning certain groups from visiting/moving to the US

-There is nothing libertarian about demanding the closure of mosques

-There is nothing libertarian about saying the 1st Amendment allows too much free speech

-There is nothing libertarian about eminent domain abuse

-There is nothing libertarian about wanting more power


I get it that it is 'cool' for conservatives/Republicans these days to call themselves 'libertarian.' So much cooler than going along with the neocon, now. However, actions speak louder than labels, and most right-libertarians these days are nothing like Hayekians, Rothbardians, or even Paulites of recent years.

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Pretty much agree with your list, but then again I am not a Trump supporter. I can understand why many would vote for him over a Democrat though. If Hillary were President rather than tax cuts and deregulation, we would likely be seeing a push for gun control and hate speech laws.

When you say Trump supporter, are you talking about the "True believer" types or simply voters?

Koke said:

This points more to a broken system than anything and it's why I abhor 80% of the spineless neoconservatives as well.

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It is broken because capitalism and mass 'democracy' tend to clash. When you have elections costing millions or even billions of dollars then you have to sell your soul to a few donors. Oligarchies make a certain few happy... but they make the rest of us miserable. However, the oligarchs are smart enough to pit the masses against each other (e.g. it's the feminists!, it's the media!, it's the white rednecks!, it's the Jews!, it's the coloreds!, etc.) Divide and conquer, straight out of Sun Tzu's Art of War.

I think one could objectively say, however, that Trump is much more in favor of shrinking the power and outreach of the state than a Bernie Sanders or even Hillary Clinton. I don't think you're being intellectually honest saying otherwise.

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I think Bernie was far from perfect and Hillary was another typical corporate Democrat. They are both far from libertarians, though Bernie had some appeal to left-libertarians. With that said, Trump is certainly in favor of giving corporations more free reign over the economy. However, in many ways Trump wants to take away individual freedoms. He has stated his support of anti-libertarian stop-and-frisk policies. He has stated his desire to push laws restricting free speech. He has appointed an attorney general who has an unhealthy obsession to throw peaceful pot users in prison, even if it was medicinal. Why should I be more concerned about some corporation's 'freedom' to pollute the air I breathe over individual freedoms?

Trump parrots some traditional hardline conservative opinions to appease certain voting blocs as any politician does

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What voting bloc is Trump appealing to when he says he wants to restrict free speech?

Geoist said:

It is broken because capitalism and mass 'democracy' tend to clash. When you have elections costing millions or even billions of dollars then you have to sell your soul to a few donors. Oligarchies make a certain few happy... but they make the rest of us miserable. However, the oligarchs are smart enough to pit the masses against each other (e.g. it's the feminists!, it's the media!, it's the white rednecks!, it's the Jews!, it's the coloreds!, etc.) Divide and conquer, straight out of Sun Tzu's Art of War.




I think Bernie was far from perfect and Hillary was another typical corporate Democrat. They are both far from libertarians, though Bernie had some appeal to left-libertarians. With that said, Trump is certainly in favor of giving corporations more free reign over the economy. However, in many ways Trump wants to take away individual freedoms. He has stated his support of anti-libertarian stop-and-frisk policies. He has stated his desire to push laws restricting free speech. He has appointed an attorney general who has an unhealthy obsession to throw peaceful pot users in prison, even if it was medicinal. Why should I be more concerned about some corporation's 'freedom' to pollute the air I breathe over individual freedoms?




What voting bloc is Trump appealing to when he says he wants to restrict free speech?

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I like to think there is a bright side to having Jeff Sessions as AG. Actually enforcing the law will bring it to the table for discussion and moves us closer to legalization. Not enforcing it leaves it in limbo and allowing the system to apply it disproportionately.

Also, it wasn't long ago Conservatives were the party of anti-free speech (censoring foul language), given the bias against right wing/Conservative thought in the media you can see where some would be open to it. Given the attacks from the Left though most have realized just how important it is and have largely become very pro free speech.

Geoist said:

It is broken because capitalism and mass 'democracy' tend to clash. When you have elections costing millions or even billions of dollars then you have to sell your soul to a few donors. Oligarchies make a certain few happy... but they make the rest of us miserable. However, the oligarchs are smart enough to pit the masses against each other (e.g. it's the feminists!, it's the media!, it's the white rednecks!, it's the Jews!, it's the coloreds!, etc.) Divide and conquer, straight out of Sun Tzu's Art of War.

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I can't disagree with most of these points.

I think Bernie was far from perfect and Hillary was another typical corporate Democrat. They are both far from libertarians, though Bernie had some appeal to left-libertarians. With that said, Trump is certainly in favor of giving corporations more free reign over the economy. However, in many ways Trump wants to take away individual freedoms. He has stated his support of anti-libertarian stop-and-frisk policies. He has stated his desire to push laws restricting free speech. He has appointed an attorney general who has an unhealthy obsession to throw peaceful pot users in prison, even if it was medicinal. Why should I be more concerned about some corporation's 'freedom' to pollute the air I breathe over individual freedoms?

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Like I said man, I understand that Trump says some dumb stuff and stuff that is inherently anti-libertarian. My argument is that our other choices outside of civil war or revolution were by every objective measure MUCH larger statists than Trump advertised himself as and how he is currently preforming as a president.

What voting bloc is Trump appealing to when he says he wants to restrict free speech?

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The article you linked referring to his comments on the first amendment he is specifically talking (in my opinion) about libel and some of the witch hunting that goes on in the corporate media apparatus. If you know about the law surrounding these cases then you'd know that libel is a not by definition a "crime" but it can be perceived as a "civil wrong" which in certain cases makes the slanderer liable to be sued if they spread or perpetuate information which may discredit or harm the reputation of another individual falsely. My opinion on the matter is not relevant but I will say that it's a little more complicated and out of context to just make the blanket statement of him wanting to "restrict free speech".

Fiddytree said:

On this forum a few years back, I discovered that a lot of right-libertarians had this thing about brown and black people. I couldn't quite put my finger on it.....

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Just last month you implied that I was parroting Noam Chomsky (which I don't even consider an insult). Now this? You can't seem to keep your criticism straight.