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What is real solution to world's political and economic problems?

James972 said:
???? actually most people buy food clothing and shelter etc and have no desire to buy things that kill others . Do you have any idea what your point is?
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Interesting you mention clothes. It's common knowledge that a great many clothing brands are made in sweatshops that employ child laborers in horrid conditions--many of them chained to their sewing desks for 14+ hours per day. Some folks care. Most don't. Most couldn't even tell you whether the clothes they had purchased hurt anyone, and even when informed, probably wouldn't care that much.

James972 said:
dear, when our founders talking about freedom they did not mean freedom to punch people in the nose. Do you understand??
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Which founder are you? I was responding to your post.

James972 said:
great so you are very very conservative since liberals want to expand govt power over individuals without end
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No, I'm liberal. I'm not aware of any liberals who want to expand government "without end." Some might want to expand it more than I would.

James972 said:
who brainwashed you? there are 200 million corporations all over the world. How could 200 million be tyrannical?
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Short (and probably futile) reading lesson:

"Apples would make a good pie." That's my claim. Would it be appropriate for someone to say "there are 200 million apples in the world! How could you possibly fit that many apples into a pie?"

Obviously not. Saying that apples would make a good pie doesn't imply that I mean to put all the apples in the world into a single pie. Similarly, saying that corporations would become more tyrannical than they are now does not imply that all 200 million (or whatever) would become tyrants. Probably most would be annexed or wiped out by the larger corporations.

James972 said:
how when they live and die based on how well they treat their workers and customers?
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The closest historical example to the hypothetical scenario under discussion was the laissez-faire policy of government in the late 19th and earth 20th centuries. During that time, men, women, and children were often forced to work very long hours for barely enough pay to afford to live in a toilet, with no regard for worker or public safety, rampant corporate theft and fraud taking place, etc.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Oh, sure. Government enables the tyranny of corporations, but I think corporations have captured government to effect that end, and so that's an indication they would take power if government folded tomorrow. Again, it's a very sticky wicket.
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Corporations taking the power to tax is not likely. It is also not likely that the "job creators" wish to have to pay enough to attract qualified workers without the aid of the "safety net" and publicly subsidized education. They like the current situation where they can just buy (rent?) the assistance of government representatives as needed.
 
Soopairik said:
I guess we should exterminate all humans then.
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Nah...I'd prefer we live, hence the "so I guess we're kinda stuck" part of my comment as that option isn't viable.
 
James972 said:
this is utter BS of course. China has well over a billion people and they are doing just fine mostly because they switched to Republican capitalism. This is the role America was designed to play by our genius Founders. Ours was always intended to be a empire of liberty. Only liberals stand in the way!
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this is utter BS of course ........................
 
ttwtt78640 said:
Corporations taking the power to tax is not likely. It is also not likely that the "job creators" wish to have to pay enough to attract qualified workers without the aid of the "safety net" and publicly subsidized education. They like the current situation where they can just buy (rent?) the assistance of government representatives as needed.
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I think you may be contemplating less of a limit scenario--less of an extreme scenario--than am I. Anyway, just curious: why do you think it's unlikely that corporations wouldn't take the power to tax?
 
ashurbanipal said:
I think you may be contemplating less of a limit scenario--less of an extreme scenario--than am I. Anyway, just curious: why do you think it's unlikely that corporations wouldn't take the power to tax?
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The "job creators" now enjoy the ability to pay all folks lower wages because of the "safety net" but are not seen as openly supporting it.

The effect of "job creators" assuming that role of taxation (to replicate the "safety net" nonsense) would be to tax (reduce the pay of) those workers that earn "too much" (have "too few" dependents?) and give that (as a pay increase) to those than earn "too little" (have "too many" dependents?). That, of course, would end up being exposed as an obvious case of offering unequal pay for equal work.

Best to let "job creators" rely on a third party (the government) to play Robin hood and say <wink, wink> we are offering equal pay for equal work.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Interesting you mention clothes. It's common knowledge that a great many clothing brands are made in sweatshops that employ child laborers in horrid conditions--many of them chained to their sewing desks for 14+ hours per day. Some folks care. Most don't. Most couldn't even tell you whether the clothes they had purchased hurt anyone, and even when informed, probably wouldn't care that much.
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our subject was not child labor but rather your contention that we need a libNazi govt that knows best and will for example prevent us from buying toxic cars. Where did you get your fascination with magical libNazi govt?
 
ashurbanipal said:
No, I'm liberal. I'm not aware of any liberals who want to expand government "without end." Some might want to expand it more than I would.
.
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actually govt had grown for 200 years when Obama arrived and all he wanted was huge expansion. Now Sanders has arrived and guess what he wants? Do you see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?
 
ashurbanipal said:
saying that corporations would become more tyrannical[without govt] than they are now does not imply that all 200 million (or whatever) would become tyrants. Probably most would be annexed or wiped out by the larger corporations.
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1) capitalist corporations cant be tyrannical since they survive only by serving their workers and customers better than competition. Service is not tyranny
Its is Gods work.

2) libsocialist fascist crony or anti capitalist govt reduces the service needs of business and would increase tyranny. Do you understand?
 
Have no idea what the solution is, how do you police greed? That's the cause. THere is enough wealth to go around where people don't have to live in squalor while others living in multiple mansions with their private plane and collection of luxury cars and gold toilets and other gluttonous things.

Not giving those people tax breaks would help provide support. Somehow forcing companies to pay wages where the CEOs don't take home 500x more than their average employee salary, where people have good education and healthcare and aren't bogged down in debt or bankrupted because they got sick
]
It would help if people weren't so ignorant and believe the propaganda fed to them where they cheer on the very people causing the problems

I don't see it, humans are a despicable species
 
ashurbanipal said:
During that time, men, women, and children were often forced to work very long hours for barely enough pay to afford to live in a toilet,
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this is an obvious liberal lie of course. America is a free country and no one is forced to take a job. We are free to take the best jobs in the world offered to us. Corporations must bid for our services just as they must bid for customers. If they don't offer more than competition capitalsm drives them into bankruptcy. Now do you understand?
 
James972 said:
this is utter BS of course. China has well over a billion people and they are doing just fine mostly because they switched to Republican capitalism. This is the role America was designed to play by our genius Founders. Ours was always intended to be a empire of liberty. Only liberals stand in the way!
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of course, derpa derpa derpa , its liberals faults. We have been doing republican capitalism for 40 years and are declining. Who are you kidding?

And this is about the world, so China's success is directly resultilng in the struggles in the US. THey took the manufacturing jobs.

And I'm sorry, I would hardly say they are doing fine with a billion people in one country, would you want to live amongst so many people? In a place that can be authoratarian? YOu want censorship like they have in China where the propagandize the people (well, you probably watch Fox news so you'd probably embrace that)
 
Sampson Simpson said:
Have no idea what the solution is, how do you police greed? That's the cause.
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capitalism policies greed beautifully. If a business does not put all its money into high wages, low prices, and high quality it goes bankrupt versus a competitor that does. Do you understand?
 
Grand Mal said:
I'll tell you what your revolution had to do with the rest of the world. The American Revolution was the beginning of the triumph of liberalism. Those founders weren't the first liberals but they were probably the first effective ones, and they encouraged the rise of liberalism in Europe.
That's right. Your founders were liberals. The conservatives were hiding in the barn during the Revolutionary War, or booking passage to Nova Scotia. Do you remember any of the American History you learned in school? Do you know what a 'Tory' was? Well, to this day the Conservative Party in England and Scotland and Canada are called Tories. They call themselves Tories.
Now do you understand?
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It's always ridiculous to see these hacks made dumb post after dumb post and thinking they are making a solid argument. The founders were inf act liberals, they fought against the norm. The conservatives would have called people anti-British for opposing the kingdom, like they do every time people argue against yet another war. Member the Iraq war and during Bush's presidency, everybody was a terrorist sympathizer. Those would be the very people that would be Tories.

I can't stand the stupid on message boards, its astounding
 
Sampson Simpson said:
of course, derpa derpa derpa , its liberals faults. We have been doing republican capitalism for 40 years and are declining. Who are you kidding?
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for 40 years capitalism has been declining. We have the highest corporate tax in the world for example and govt is always growing. Who told you that we have been doing capitalism for 40 years???
 
James972 said:
capitalism policies greed beautifully. If a business does not put all its money into high wages, low prices, and high quality it goes bankrupt versus a competitor that does. Do you understand?
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There really is no point in discussing anything with you, you know nothing, and you can't back up your argument. Typical right winger (probably a troll) Say stupid things, don't support it, repeat.

Capitalism is what gives us child labor, people making poverty wages, companies getting so big they destroy competition then can do what they want,l gives us tainted food, poisoned waters, etc.

Businesses do not put their money in high wage today, the wages in this country are stagnant and pathetic. You telling me walmart pays high wage? No, they can pay low wages becasue there is high demand of jobs. And they do it to make as big a profit as can. That's greed, that's not capitalism paying high wages.

Companies moved jobs to China and other places because they can pay pennies on the dollar for labor. All for more profit. that's capitalism
 
Sampson Simpson said:
And this is about the world, so China's success is directly resultilng in the struggles in the US. THey took the manufacturing jobs.
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what you mean is liberals gave them most of the jobs thanks to the highest tax in the world, regulations, and stupid trade deals. Do you understand?
 
Sampson Simpson said:
And I'm sorry, I would hardly say they are doing fine with a billion people in one country, would you want to live amongst so many people? In a place that can be authoratarian? YOu want censorship like they have in China where the propagandize the people (well, you probably watch Fox news so you'd probably embrace that)
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they are doing just fine, 100 times better, than when they were a libsocialist country with 10 million human souls slowly starving to death each year! This has been in all the papers. It is hard to understand how you did not know it?
 
Sampson Simpson said:
Capitalism is what gives us child labor, people making poverty wages,
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capitalism creates wealth so we don't have to send our children to work to survive; thus capitalism eliminates child labor. Even NY Times supports child labor because it is better than letting kids slowly starve to death or scavenge in dubs or work in sex trade. Now do you understand how you have been tricked to see black as white by your liberal handlers?
 
Alright troll, I'm done with you, no point arguing such ignorance who can't even post more than a couple of sentences
 
Sampson Simpson said:
, companies getting so big they destroy competition
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that is a 19th Century Marxist fantasy. today there are 100 million corporations that compete with each other and now there is more international competition than ever in history. Surely you grasp that now?
 
Sampson Simpson said:
Alright troll, I'm done with you, no point arguing such ignorance who can't even post more than a couple of sentences
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ever see a conservative who has to run from a debate? What do you learn from that?
 
James972 said:
capitalist corporations cant be tyrannical since they survive only by serving their workers and customers better than competition. Service is not tyranny
Its is Gods work.
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You're absolutely right! Galatians 5:13 is often mistranslated! It is usually translated something like: "You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh, rather, serve one another humbly in love." But the translation leaves out: "...serve one another humbly in love, and make damn sure you get paid for it."

What corporations do has nothing to do with "God's work." Anyway, no, that's not how corporations survive. You've conflated about four different concepts: absolute and relative beneficence, and customers with employees.

James972 said:
libsocialist fascist crony or anti capitalist govt reduces the service needs of business and would increase tyranny. Do you understand?
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Hah! No...I do not understand.

James972 said:
actually govt had grown for 200 years when Obama arrived and all he wanted was huge expansion. Now Sanders has arrived and guess what he wants? Do you see why we say liberalism is based in pure ignorance?
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No, and I have no idea about the relevance of what government has actually done (even if I agreed with your assessment).

James972 said:
our subject was not child labor but rather your contention that we need a libNazi govt that knows best and will for example prevent us from buying toxic cars.
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Our subject was the fact that people generally don't care about all and sundry, and hence in the exercise of individual desire, human interests are not necessarily advanced. The car was one example of that in action. Sweatshops are another example.

James972 said:
Where did you get your fascination with magical libNazi govt?
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I have no fascination with "magical libNazi govt," whatever dafuq that is.

James972 said:
this is an obvious liberal lie of course. America is a free country and no one is forced to take a job.
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That is about the sloppiest piece of reasoning I've seen in a long time. Enforced negative consequences on someone counts as force--even if I might be free to tell the guy with a gun to my head to go take a flying leap, that doesn't mean I'm under no force, or that my freedom is not being curtailed. To claim otherwise is downright moronic.

In any event, there's plenty of primary source evidence at your local library. It used to be de rigeur in high school history courses, but perhaps not so much any more. The fact remains that people were forced to work in god-forsaken conditions for practically no recompense. That is the logical end result of all this "freedom" you keep harping about, at least in the economic sphere. It's happened more than once in history, and can easily happen again.

James972 said:
We are free to take the best jobs in the world offered to us.
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So what? That does not signify in this context; it's trivial and meaningless, because it confuses relative and absolute notions of justice and fairness. One arrangement can be more fair than another, but still be massively unfair.

James972 said:
Corporations must bid for our services
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Hah! No, not really. Not in any effectual or robust way. Employers have been studying how to avoid having to do that for a long time. I've probably hired over 1,000 people in my life. I never once had to bid for anyone. I never once had to worry that someone was going to leave for greener pastures, because I knew I could always hire some desperate person to fill whatever position I needed. If I didn't like that person, I'd fire them and hire another. There was, for all practical purposes, an unlimited supply of labor for me. I could pay a fraction of what someone was worth, and take the profits for myself.

James972 said:
just as they must bid for customers. If they don't offer more than competition capitalsm drives them into bankruptcy. Now do you understand?
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Also just not true. Bing is a better search engine than google. But people stick with google out of habit. Android phones are as functional as iPhones, but people regularly pay hundreds of dollars more for nothing extra. VHS was more expensive and worst quality than Betamax, but VHS won the media wars. And the list goes on...
 
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