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The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

code1211 said:
Do you have any examples of whatever it is you're talking about?
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Oh FFS.

You talk about visionairies.

Ghengis khan was a visionary.

Alexander the great was a visionary.

Mao was a visionary.

Hitler was a visionary.

Pol pot was a visionary.

Lenin was a visionary.

All those business owners in the early industrial revolution who treated their workers worse than livestock were visionaries.

Drug cartel leaders are visionairies.

Child pornographers are visionairies.

Would you like more examples?
 
code1211 said:
Ah-ha! A change made under Obama falsely favors Trump. Probably a conspiracy between the two of them to deceive the rest of us.

That seems reasonable...
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Wow.

I hope you warmed up before those mental gymnastics.

Wouldn't want you to sprain anything!
 
What if...? said:
Ah, one of my favorite fallacies: "failure to draw the line".

My opposition to the death penalty doesn't make me pro-murder.

And my conserns about capitalism in its current iteration doesn't make me pro-capitalism.

What you are doing is what you are supposed to be doing.

Shutting down consideration of the issues by declaring such consideration as support of communism.

Somebody got paid for this angle. Paystubs exist somewhere for it.

Same for the "envy" canard.

"Running out of other peoples money" is pure unaldulterated bull**** in response to bringing up ANY critique of current capitalism. But it works in those conditioned to it. Its worth paying for that conditioning. It helps keep the money (and the neurochemicals) flowing unimpeded.
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You have not supported neither your fears nor your prescriptions.

The US currently has the highest GDP in its history and in the world.

Median house hold income is at it's highest point ever.

You say that something that is false is true and it's not.

YOU said that EVERYONE should get a dollar raise. I said that value is awarded for value provided.

In my example, a person is paid what he's worth. In your example, a person is paid what he demands.

You are literally asking someone else to provide money for nothing. Perhaps not chicks for free...

I am asking you where the wealth that you seek to redistribute originates? Where does it originate?
 
What if...? said:
Imagine how it would be if we were 3000 steps forward.

Why don't you care about that 2000 steps forward we lost to greed and the hunger for power?
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I care about what is real.

The outcome to date is amazing and it seems to have occurred after the time when Fossil Fuels started to power the world.

The creation of wealth built on the exploitation of cheap and portable energy has been astonishing.

There are more people living more comfortably in greater wealth than at any point in history.

An imaginary step backward is just that. The reality is that everything is much better today than it was 200 years ago.

This is not to say there is not a place to improve, just that the improvement has been tremendous where capitalism is applied.
 
What if...? said:
Oh FFS.

You talk about visionairies.

Ghengis khan was a visionary.

Alexander the great was a visionary.

Mao was a visionary.

Hitler was a visionary.

Pol pot was a visionary.

Lenin was a visionary.

All those business owners in the early industrial revolution who treated their workers worse than livestock were visionaries.

Drug cartel leaders are visionairies.

Child pornographers are visionairies.

Would you like more examples?
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Your thesis seems to be that everything is getting worse and that getting worse is the natural course of things.

My thesis is that everything is improving by the combined efforts of the visionaries leading the rest.

As far as I know, every person you named is now dead. The captains is industry from the 19th century are dead as well and their modern day examples are taxed heavily and they create wealth for the rest of us.

Criminals are being tracked down and punished when caught.

You seem to have a dark, pessamistic view of the world.

Are you currently hungry, cold, wet or otherwise in discomfort?
 
What if...? said:
Wow.

I hope you warmed up before those mental gymnastics.

Wouldn't want you to sprain anything!
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I only read the reference you failed to cut and paste.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
So then you understand that Mueller's job tittle is Hatchet Man for the Intelligentsia......that his job is to bend the law towards the purpose of the day.
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No; Muller's title is to make sure he weeds out those who lying and manipulating this country in favor of themselves and using the highest office in the land to do it.
 
code1211 said:
You have not supported neither your fears nor your prescriptions.

The US currently has the highest GDP in its history and in the world.

Median house hold income is at it's highest point ever.

You say that something that is false is true and it's not.

YOU said that EVERYONE should get a dollar raise. I said that value is awarded for value provided.

In my example, a person is paid what he's worth. In your example, a person is paid what he demands.

You are literally asking someone else to provide money for nothing. Perhaps not chicks for free...

I am asking you where the wealth that you seek to redistribute originates? Where does it originate?
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Your own ****ing article says different.

It says that if they used the original methodology there's no increase.

Which means if they applied the new methodology to the OLD numbers there wouldn't be an increase either.

And you do know that CEOs sit on each others' boards and decide how much they are "worth", right?

And when exactly did the majority of mankind decide they were just "commodities"?

No better than a 2x4. To be used up and discarded at will?

Nobody asked to be born, but nobody asked to be a "commodity" either.

But this model allows those at the top to use us up and discard us.

Which is a ****ty way to live.
 
code1211 said:
I care about what is real.

The outcome to date is amazing and it seems to have occurred after the time when Fossil Fuels started to power the world.

The creation of wealth built on the exploitation of cheap and portable energy has been astonishing.

There are more people living more comfortably in greater wealth than at any point in history.

An imaginary step backward is just that. The reality is that everything is much better today than it was 200 years ago.

This is not to say there is not a place to improve, just that the improvement has been tremendous where capitalism is applied.
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And people all over the world have suffered as a result of capitalism too.

Its the ultimate double edged sword.

And its people like you who insist on only seeing the good while utterly ignoring the bad that have facilitated all those backward steps.

All I advocate is acknowledging that bad actors exist, their activities cause harm, and therefore they need to be watched. Regulated.

Because if we don't, history will repeat itself. Because we failed to learn this lesson.
 
code1211 said:
Your thesis seems to be that everything is getting worse and that getting worse is the natural course of things.

My thesis is that everything is improving by the combined efforts of the visionaries leading the rest.

As far as I know, every person you named is now dead. The captains is industry from the 19th century are dead as well and their modern day examples are taxed heavily and they create wealth for the rest of us.

Criminals are being tracked down and punished when caught.

You seem to have a dark, pessamistic view of the world.

Are you currently hungry, cold, wet or otherwise in discomfort?
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OK, lets add some recent examples.

Like buying the patents for crucial drugs and raising the price by many times.

Pure greed.

That puts lives at risk.
 
code1211 said:
I only read the reference you failed to cut and paste.
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Lol.

So you saw the part where your point was invalidated and are now trying to duck it because I didn't cut and paste the relevant paragraphs of the article YOU posted. Which you evidently didn't read past the part that supported your position?

Pretty weak.
 
code1211 said:
I only bring this up because you mentioned minorities.

Yes... No matter what else happens, Black people are hurt. Trump is the devil and the Democrats are pretty good and Obama walks on water.

Trump, has, however, done something that no other president has done: the Black unemployment rate is at the lowest point since the statistic has been tracked in the 70's.

Obama talked about his concern and his compassion and his very strong efforts. However, he did not produce.

Trump has produced. When there is more wealth sloshing around, more people get splashed on.

Black unemployment hits all-time low - Jan. 5, 2018
<snip>
The unemployment rate for black Americans fell to 6.8% in December, the lowest level since at least 1972 when the Labor Department began tracking the figure.

It marks a swift comeback for black workers, who suffered through extremely high unemployment during the Great Recession.

Black unemployment peaked at 16.8% in March 2010, well above the peaks for other demographics.
<snip>
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Your link said that the trend for lower black unemployed has been happening for eight years. Seven years under Obama, but really all eight, since it was already happening.

The credit I give Trump is that he hasn't screwed up a good thing. Hey if capital, businesses, and jobs come back over here, I'm all for that. Who isn't?

But all this has to benefit the regular guy. Republicans always, always, always hook up rich people first. It reeks of income redistribution to the wealthy.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
code1211 said:
Well, you reject logic. I don't know if this rises from incapability or willful denial.

I see no point in continuing to waste time.
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I teach logic for a living, and I'm paid well to do so. Your post didn't make any sense.
 
What if...? said:
Your own ****ing article says different.

It says that if they used the original methodology there's no increase.

Which means if they applied the new methodology to the OLD numbers there wouldn't be an increase either.

And you do know that CEOs sit on each others' boards and decide how much they are "worth", right?

And when exactly did the majority of mankind decide they were just "commodities"?

No better than a 2x4. To be used up and discarded at will?

Nobody asked to be born, but nobody asked to be a "commodity" either.

But this model allows those at the top to use us up and discard us.

Which is a ****ty way to live.
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The obvious cure to this is for you to work 16 to 20 hours, seven days a week, 52 weeks per year to build up a company and then to hire people to work for you and pay them the wage they feel they should be paid.

If you see injustice, you need to address it in the best way that you can.

If your solution is to simply piss and moan, then you will find a smaller return on your smaller effort.
 
What if...? said:
And people all over the world have suffered as a result of capitalism too.

Its the ultimate double edged sword.

And its people like you who insist on only seeing the good while utterly ignoring the bad that have facilitated all those backward steps.

All I advocate is acknowledging that bad actors exist, their activities cause harm, and therefore they need to be watched. Regulated.

Because if we don't, history will repeat itself. Because we failed to learn this lesson.
Click to expand...

Capitalism is a market system that provides a framework for commerce of many varieties. A well regulated Capitalistic economy assures a defined process to make exchanges that benefit both parties in any transaction.

When there is a transaction that excludes capitalism, like a despot ruling peasants, the transactions are always one-sided and usury.

The despot demands and the peasants acquiesce. There is no compromise and no dealing.

It's easy to recognize a Capitalistic deal. Both parties agree to the terms of the deal, both give value and receive value, both say, "Thank you", when it's done and both are satisfied with the exchange.

The only things that change the transactions are related to the relative valuation of the items offered in trade. That valuation is most often established by "market forces".
 
joG said:
There are presently (practically) no poor in the US other than voluntary ones. It’s people that feel poor, because they were told they deserve more. Envy is a motivator for violence. And that stoking that is squarely on Sander’s door Step.
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Catastrophic unexpected illness in the uninsured is still the #1 cause of declarations of personal bankruptcy in this country.
 
Last edited:
joG said:
There are presently (practically) no poor in the US other than voluntary ones. It’s people that feel poor, because they were told they deserve more. Envy is a motivator for violence. And that stoking that is squarely on Sander’s door Step.
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So why don't you say that to these Trump voters?

 
What if...? said:
OK, lets add some recent examples.

Like buying the patents for crucial drugs and raising the price by many times.

Pure greed.

That puts lives at risk.
Click to expand...

Are you referring to the Epipen?

If yes, the very high price of this product in the US is the result of over regulation, not free market forces.

The same product sells in Britain for about 48 pounds and in Germany and France for 100 to 200 dollars.

In the US, the market is artificially protected and the product price is outrageously priced at more than $600.

Eliminate the regulations to permit competition and the price plummets.

Eliminating the free market capitalism what putting lives at risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinephrine_autoinjector
 
What if...? said:
Lol.

So you saw the part where your point was invalidated and are now trying to duck it because I didn't cut and paste the relevant paragraphs of the article YOU posted. Which you evidently didn't read past the part that supported your position?

Pretty weak.
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I'm trying to follow your logic which is once again proving to be difficult.

The methodology was changed under Obama for reasons that the changers must understand.

If you would like to cite a set of data that is better, then cite that. If you have nothing, that would not be surprising.
 
Dirt Sands said:
Your link said that the trend for lower black unemployed has been happening for eight years. Seven years under Obama, but really all eight, since it was already happening.

The credit I give Trump is that he hasn't screwed up a good thing. Hey if capital, businesses, and jobs come back over here, I'm all for that. Who isn't?

But all this has to benefit the regular guy. Republicans always, always, always hook up rich people first. It reeks of income redistribution to the wealthy.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
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Out of curiosity, how do you redistribute wealth away from those who don't have in the first place?
 
code1211 said:
Capitalism is a market system that provides a framework for commerce of many varieties. A well regulated Capitalistic economy assures a defined process to make exchanges that benefit both parties in any transaction.

When there is a transaction that excludes capitalism, like a despot ruling peasants, the transactions are always one-sided and usury.

The despot demands and the peasants acquiesce. There is no compromise and no dealing.

It's easy to recognize a Capitalistic deal. Both parties agree to the terms of the deal, both give value and receive value, both say, "Thank you", when it's done and both are satisfied with the exchange.

The only things that change the transactions are related to the relative valuation of the items offered in trade. That valuation is most often established by "market forces".
Click to expand...

And markets have become easier to manipulate as wealth has concentrated.

That's the pattern, historically.

Those at the top lay claim to more and more until there isn't enough for everybody else. And when it gets bad enough the majority forces them to stop.

I prefer to learn the lessons of history rather than repeat them.
 
code1211 said:
Are you referring to the Epipen?

If yes, the very high price of this product in the US is the result of over regulation, not free market forces.

The same product sells in Britain for about 48 pounds and in Germany and France for 100 to 200 dollars.

In the US, the market is artificially protected and the product price is outrageously priced at more than $600.

Eliminate the regulations to permit competition and the price plummets.

Eliminating the free market capitalism what putting lives at risk.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinephrine_autoinjector
Click to expand...

Its apparently an IP issue by your link.

And simple greed.

Ten dollar injector, one dollar drug, $604 price tag.
 
code1211 said:
I'm trying to follow your logic which is once again proving to be difficult.

The methodology was changed under Obama for reasons that the changers must understand.

If you would like to cite a set of data that is better, then cite that. If you have nothing, that would not be surprising.
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Well, doing a little research reveals some troubling stuff.

Adjusted for inflation we're really getting screwed.

The median income of $25, 854 in 1975 would have purchased over $120,000 worth of goods in 2016.

Median income has doubled but prices have risen 500% in the same time period.

Gdp per capita doubled too in that period, but population increased by about 50%. So 5 trillion and change in 1975 using median income vs 19 trillion in 2016. (Rough numbers, sources vary, but close enough for analysis.

So real gdp per capita has increased fourfold, prices have increased fivefold, while median wages have only increased twofold.

So in real money, there still hasn't been an increase in actual income in over forty years.

In fact, the $59,000 median income today has about half the purchasing power the median income did in 1975.

So I don't actually see the good news.

Trillions more in real gdp.

Median wages have half the purchasing power they did in 1975. About a quarter of what they would have been if they had kept up with inflation.

So color me even less impressed than I was before you made me do the math.
 
code1211 said:
Out of curiosity, how do you redistribute wealth away from those who don't have in the first place?
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How many workers earn less than $15 per hour.

Hope my link worked.

It's simple. They wouldn't have nothing if the income had not been redistributed already. Nearly half of all hourly employees get less than $15 an hour. This is a disgrace of Western civilization as we know it. If people work, they should get paid. They are not slaves but might as well be.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
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