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Thread: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich123 View Post
    Your examples are well noted. I should restate that to include, Labor which produces a finished product . Would that be more acceptable to you? The point is, John D. Rockerfeller didn't know the oil business, he was a banker. He hired those who knew something about the business. When I refer to labor I mean it in the general scope of those who produce as in those individuals who J D R would have hired. So in this scenario he J.D. R. did not produce the actual product. It was the efforts of those who he hired which actually produced the desired results. It was they who produced wealth via their efforts. True their efforts needed structure and organization but in any group of people a task leader will emerge if the task is well defined. This is a basic aspect of social psychology. So the only other ingredient needed is funding and we see by the Obama and Sanders example that the people are quite capable of that.
    I don't understand the reference highlighted in red. What for profit enterprise have Obama and Sanders created?

    Funding is the first ingredient, not the only other ingredient. JDR hired the laborers. They were selling a product, their time and effort, and he was buying that product.

    Just like he had previously bought land or the right to use it, machinery, licenses and so forth, he bought their labor.

    The visionary fulfills his vision and proceeds. The rest of us go along for the ride.

    Government creates the environment in which he acts and the rest of us are blessed to have access to some of the fruits of that vision.

    In the US, we have a good life. In Africa, the life is not so good for the average guy.

    What is the difference? In both places, many people people work like whipped mules and finish the day exhausted.

    In Africa, the economies are not so great. In the US, it's the best anywhere, ever.

    In America, we follow the dual tracks of capitalism and socialism. There is a generally accepted drive toward a vision of "the better" involving the combined efforts of Government, business and people.

    We cannot effectively divide out the various components of the economy and our success any more than we dissect our bodies saying that the brain is the only thing that works or the hands or the eyes.

    In concert the symphony relies on the conductor as well as the musicians and the producers and the traditions and writers of the music. Take out one component and the music ends.

    All of that said, though, labor is only labor. Essential and noble for those lucky enough to find a fulfilling outlet. In its best examples, "Work is love made visible"- Gibran.
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Just keep the lemmings supplied with new iPhones, reality TV and celebrity worship and they'll sell their souls to the country on the cheap. There will never be a revolution because people's universes end at their fingertips now. It's a combination of selfishness, apathy and laziness.
    Liberals: Demanding the freedom to write laws to take freedoms away from people they don't agree with.

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    I don't understand the reference highlighted in red. What for profit enterprise have Obama and Sanders created?

    Funding is the first ingredient, not the only other ingredient. JDR hired the laborers. They were selling a product, their time and effort, and he was buying that product.

    Just like he had previously bought land or the right to use it, machinery, licenses and so forth, he bought their labor.

    The visionary fulfills his vision and proceeds. The rest of us go along for the ride.

    Government creates the environment in which he acts and the rest of us are blessed to have access to some of the fruits of that vision.

    In the US, we have a good life. In Africa, the life is not so good for the average guy.

    What is the difference? In both places, many people people work like whipped mules and finish the day exhausted.

    In Africa, the economies are not so great. In the US, it's the best anywhere, ever.

    In America, we follow the dual tracks of capitalism and socialism. There is a generally accepted drive toward a vision of "the better" involving the combined efforts of Government, business and people.

    We cannot effectively divide out the various components of the economy and our success any more than we dissect our bodies saying that the brain is the only thing that works or the hands or the eyes.

    In concert the symphony relies on the conductor as well as the musicians and the producers and the traditions and writers of the music. Take out one component and the music ends.

    All of that said, though, labor is only labor. Essential and noble for those lucky enough to find a fulfilling outlet. In its best examples, "Work is love made visible"- Gibran.
    The reference to Sanders and obama was made because their campaigns was largely financed by small donors. Thus as I pointed out previously in any groupd of people there exist leaders and followers who are dormant at that particular time. But when a well defined task is at hand there will emerge from those in that groupd people who will take charge as in a (Task Leader) . That is to say, if a bridge needed to be build and if it was up to only those people in that group that had to accomplish the task, there will be people who will take charge as to how much concret ,how much steel and what kinds of equipment that would be necessary to complete the job. There will be others who will know how to enlist others for financial funding. Then their will be others who would follow the instructions of those who are task leaders. This is the basic dynamics of Social interaction and is widely accepted in Sociology and social psychology as factual. When I was in college our professor had groups of us picked at random and given a task to complete .Sure enough there were some who emerged to take charge of the given task. Finally as I pointed out both Sanders and Obama was funded mostly by small donors, and it will be they who will step up and make something important happen, without the Rockerfellers or Vanderbilts.

    I will also take issue with your assertion that we have the best economy in the world. I would submit to you that there are times when our economy is working very well but it didn't work so good in 1929, or 1869, or 2008 just to name a few of our down turns. I would say all economies go through similar periods.

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    America is in the ditch deposited here by our leaders, we need better leaders, not getting better leaders carries grave consequences.
    Yes you are right on the money with that statement. I think America needs to be a country of people who take charge of their own futures. If a corporation is acting unethically why would we buy from them? On the other hand if we know of a corporation who is acting socially and environmentally responsible and they nedd to charge a little more for their product ,because they don't polute and they actually care about their work force, would we be willing to pay the extra? Small steps, multiplied by many equals great distances.

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich123 View Post
    Yes you are right on the money with that statement. I think America needs to be a country of people who take charge of their own futures. If a corporation is acting unethically why would we buy from them? On the other hand if we know of a corporation who is acting socially and environmentally responsible and they nedd to charge a little more for their product ,because they don't polute and they actually care about their work force, would we be willing to pay the extra? Small steps, multiplied by many equals great distances.
    We need to decide what we want that is the most important, both to us and our kids, we have to figure out where America needs work/fixing and then go do that, we need to stop being little children demanding that we get everything we want and not willing to do much work to get it.

    We need to grow up.

    FAST
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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet Elvis View Post
    Just keep the lemmings supplied with new iPhones, reality TV and celebrity worship and they'll sell their souls to the country on the cheap. There will never be a revolution because people's universes end at their fingertips now. It's a combination of selfishness, apathy and laziness.
    Don't agree! I see a lot of people in the bitter cold protesting in cities all across America. Yes there is something to be said for what you are saying, but I firmly believe that enough Americans care enough to be motivated. Remember a small percentage of American Patriots fought in the revolutionary war.

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    We need to decide what we want that is the most important, both to us and our kids, we have to figure out where America needs work/fixing and then go do that, we need to stop being little children demanding that we get everything we want and not willing to do much work to get it.

    We need to grow up.

    FAST
    I tend to agree with a lot of what your saying. I believe that people have the grit within them but they just don't know it until they are tested. The fact that people of various stripes are on this forum tells me that people care enough to want to communicate their views. But unfortunately many people stay intellectually sheltered in their echo chambers of their own choosing. With only their own point of view being told to them on a daily basis, they become self propagandized. So aside from the phonies in Washington and folks who are totally turned off to the point of apathy, we have this individual who can't hear anything other then what he chooses. This is a serious situation for our nation. The power to be must be held accountable. They must be our advocates and not just the special interest.

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by RetiredUSN View Post
    Russian citizens never had the same economic and social prospects of Americans.

    There is no comparison.
    They certainly did not, they used feudalism until it was ended then they used what was essentially feudalism in everything but name until the 1917 revolution. The russian people had never experienced capitalism until the end of the soviet union, and under both feudalism and soviet communism, there were only two classes, working class or peasants and the ruling class.
    “[The metric system is the tool of the Devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead, and that’s the way I likes it!” – Abe “Grampa” Simpson”

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by RetiredUSN View Post
    Russian citizens never had the same economic and social prospects of Americans.

    There is no comparison.
    There IS a comparison - the American Revolution.
    “The people do not want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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    Re: The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    The choice is not a binary one.

    There can be capitalism supported intelligent regulation. There does not need to be an utter lack of regulation OR a strangling, constricting web of red tape.

    Regarding the part highlighted in RED, this is absolutely rubbish.

    The labor of anyone is just labor. I can dig a ditch and create nothing but a ditch. I can tighten a bolt and create nothing at all. In truth, I may damage both the bolt and the nut with my effort. I might cut a power line digging the ditch.

    Labor creates nothing by itself. It is the organized, wise coordination of and direction of labor by a leader with vision that turns that labor into wealth.

    In the examples above of the ditch or the bolt, the labor could actually be causing damage that is only corrected at a cost. This is the opposite of wealth creation.

    Labor is only labor.
    Labor is capitalism at it's lowest common denominator. It is the foundation of any economy and must be kept healthy in order for that economy to thrive. With out healthy labor you get a third world economy.
    “The people do not want virtue; but they are the dupes of pretended patriots” : Elbridge Gerry of Mass; Constitutional Convention 1787

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