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The Gilded Age lead to and cause the Great Depression of 1929a

What if...? said:
Its in the link you posted.

"Great divergence-inequality."

Basically, up until the mid seventies, the "rising tide" of our economy lifted all "boats" at about the same rate. After that time, the majority saw their boats sit at the same place, for forty years now.

While those at the top saw their share skyrocket.

It was abrupt, and the American work ethic didn't change.

There was a deep recession due to the oil crisis, and when the tide started rising again they left us behind.

They didn't need to include the rest of us so they didn't. Plain as that.

Its their businesses, so its their right. But that doesn't make it right.

Further, we completely ignore the fact that there are two basic ways to make money.

Provide a service or product that people want to buy.

Figure out what people need to survive and then acquire it so you can withhold it to make money. Or take advantage of unnatural markets like housing and healthcare. When you have them by the balls...
Click to expand...

Well, the reality of what you post is part of the story.

In the 30's, there were bread lines and a mass migration our of the drought gripped mid west during the Great Depression.

Then there was WW2.

By and large, the big advances for the "working man" followed Henry Ford doubling the wage rate to attract and keep workers.

Prior to that, there was a pretty dark time for people on the job. In the 20's and 30's, working usually meant a lack of all fingers or limbs.

Prior to the 1800's, life in Europe was so bad that people would abandon the familiar to emigrate to the US. Life on the East Coast was so bad that people would abandon civilization to go west and live in a hole on the prairie.

The Utopia you seem to want to conjure was momentary and is a fantasy.

Thomas Edison said something along the lines that most people don't recognize opportunity when it appears because it's wearing overalls and looks like hard work.

That, apparently, hasn't changed for more than 100 years.

We are currently at the threshold of a great revival of opportunity in this country. It is exactly the same as the years when Reagan led us out of the Carter malaise years.

If you are young, don't fail to notice it. Start your 401K now. Gamble with your career.
 
code1211 said:
With respect, they are being paid.

I still have my first full time check stub which reflects 40 hours of work compensated at less than 40 dollars gross. (Who's FICA and why is he taking my money?) . It's a little funny by today's standards.

I was being paid to assist in the delivery of fast food to the customer. While that was my job, I also LEARNED how to get to work on time, how to take orders and execute functions, deal with customers and co-workers and make change.

ENTRY LEVEL POSITIONS provide to the employee much more value in experience than in money.

If a person attends a school and pays tuition to learn a trade, that is considered to be okay by most people. Is this acceptable to you?

If a person is paid to attend a job and he also learns a trade, by your standards as you present them, that person is being exploited.

Can you guess what's wrong with your view of the entry level position?
Click to expand...
I expected the entry level argument. You catch on fast. Minimum wage is used by other people who aren't entry level employees. Consider waiters. In Texas they get $2.12 an hour. They could have been serving for twenty or thirty years and still get minimum wage. Take cleaning services or janitors. A healthy city depends on them but rent my be out of site as it is in Seattle or Miami. They could have been doing it for twenty years to but the labor market only pays the minimum. These two examples are not entry level but they still have to pay for exorbinant rent.

How about medical care? How can the minimum wage cover that. Then the govt has to kick in so tax payers actually end up subsidizing the low wage in place of the employer.

The minimum wage has evolved. It is no longer simply entry level. It bothers me that people that get paid don't care about the working man. Maybe they shouldn't care about those people getting money either.

Establishment economics doesn't work for millions of people as real wages have gone down. People compare median or average household income of today with twenty, thirty, or forty years ago but real wages have sank. What's different about today's job market from yesterdays is that both husband and wife have to work where as yesterday only one person had to to make the same cash. So a low minimum wage also tears up families.

If the free market economy doesn't increase the wages, which it clearly doesn't, then the govt must step in and do it for them.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
code1211 said:
Well, the reality of what you post is part of the story.

In the 30's, there were bread lines and a mass migration our of the drought gripped mid west during the Great Depression.

Then there was WW2.

By and large, the big advances for the "working man" followed Henry Ford doubling the wage rate to attract and keep workers.

Prior to that, there was a pretty dark time for people on the job. In the 20's and 30's, working usually meant a lack of all fingers or limbs.

Prior to the 1800's, life in Europe was so bad that people would abandon the familiar to emigrate to the US. Life on the East Coast was so bad that people would abandon civilization to go west and live in a hole on the prairie.

The Utopia you seem to want to conjure was momentary and is a fantasy.

Thomas Edison said something along the lines that most people don't recognize opportunity when it appears because it's wearing overalls and looks like hard work.

That, apparently, hasn't changed for more than 100 years.

We are currently at the threshold of a great revival of opportunity in this country. It is exactly the same as the years when Reagan led us out of the Carter malaise years.

If you are young, don't fail to notice it. Start your 401K now. Gamble with your career.
Click to expand...

This is why this country is so divided.

You simply ducked past the point and declared victory.

Thirty years of a consistant growth in income and wealth across all quintiles abruptly ended and all the data shows that all the new wealth just went to the very, very top. Instead. Their money, but still, that is what happened.

All the graphs for GDP, productivity, the stock market, executive compensation all doing GREAT over time.

But wages for the majority stagnant. Median wage buys half what it did forty years ago.

Its not imaginary.
 
code1211 said:
WW2 ended the Great Depression.
Click to expand...

Not exactly correct. We were clawing our way out before 1941. But WWII certainly sped up the process.

The question is how did it speed up the process? As a result of Pearl Harbor, government began spending massive sums of money hiring people. It instituted what would in normal times be called draconian measures to take money from the wealthy and force it to be invested in hiring people at a decent wage, either to make tanks, airplanes, bombs, etc. or to go fight in the war.

There was a great deal of demand by the end of WWII, because ordinary folks had a bunch of money to spend. Industry responded, and it created a virtuous economic cycle. Right wing policies have been gradually eroding that cycle, which is now nearly gone.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Not exactly correct. We were clawing our way out before 1941. But WWII certainly sped up the process.

The question is how did it speed up the process? As a result of Pearl Harbor, government began spending massive sums of money hiring people. It instituted what would in normal times be called draconian measures to take money from the wealthy and force it to be invested in hiring people at a decent wage, either to make tanks, airplanes, bombs, etc. or to go fight in the war.

There was a great deal of demand by the end of WWII, because ordinary folks had a bunch of money to spend. Industry responded, and it created a virtuous economic cycle. Right wing policies have been gradually eroding that cycle, which is now nearly gone.
Click to expand...
Not really. FDR was going to make a second New Deal. He planned to create healthcare and housing for all, but died. Southern Democrats forced Truman to give big tax cuts. It was actually the end of WWII that ended the depression.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
Dirt Sands said:
Not really. FDR was going to make a second New Deal. He planned to create healthcare and housing for all, but died.
Click to expand...

Ummm...OK. What does that have to do with anything?

Dirt Sands said:
Southern Democrats forced Truman to give big tax cuts.
Click to expand...

There were minor tax cuts in 1949, 10 years after the Depression ended. I have no idea what you're on about here.

Dirt Sands said:
It was actually the end of WWII that ended the depression.
Click to expand...

The depression officially ended in 1939 when GDP rose above what it was in 1929. So, again, not sure what your point is.
 
joG said:
There are presently (practically) no poor in the US other than voluntary ones. It’s people that feel poor, because they were told they deserve more. Envy is a motivator for violence. And that stoking that is squarely on Sander’s door Step.
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You are so incredibly wrong that the only poor people in the US are poor by choice. Mind blowingly wrong.
 
joG said:
All they need do is move to where the jobs are. If you opt to live in the dirt it is not poverty. It is your chosen way of life.
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:lamo:lamo:lamo

I'm not sure if it's ignorance or arrogance that you actually believe that.
 
Dirt Sands said:
I expected the entry level argument. You catch on fast. Minimum wage is used by other people who aren't entry level employees. Consider waiters. In Texas they get $2.12 an hour. They could have been serving for twenty or thirty years and still get minimum wage. Take cleaning services or janitors. A healthy city depends on them but rent my be out of site as it is in Seattle or Miami. They could have been doing it for twenty years to but the labor market only pays the minimum. These two examples are not entry level but they still have to pay for exorbinant rent.

How about medical care? How can the minimum wage cover that. Then the govt has to kick in so tax payers actually end up subsidizing the low wage in place of the employer.

The minimum wage has evolved. It is no longer simply entry level. It bothers me that people that get paid don't care about the working man. Maybe they shouldn't care about those people getting money either.

Establishment economics doesn't work for millions of people as real wages have gone down. People compare median or average household income of today with twenty, thirty, or forty years ago but real wages have sank. What's different about today's job market from yesterdays is that both husband and wife have to work where as yesterday only one person had to to make the same cash. So a low minimum wage also tears up families.

If the free market economy doesn't increase the wages, which it clearly doesn't, then the govt must step in and do it for them.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

A waiter or waitress elects to have the job they have after the entry level position status is passed.

At that point, they are welcome to elevate their responsibility and knowledge in the trade or not. If the waitress elects to remain at the college watering hole, that's her choice. If she completes her degree, that's great!

However, many, many waiters and waitresses elect to gather more knowledge and experience, AS THEY WOULD DO IN ANY OTHER PROFESSION, and increase their income through tips.

At a recent anniversary dinner with my fiance, we had a dinner for two that rolled up a tab of $250. The waiter spent about 15 minutes of our roughly 2 hours at the side of the table. His tip was about $50.00. His knowledge was extensive in regard to the history of the building, the exact descriptions of the menu items, wine pairings and matching menu items to our personal pallets.

He was serving other guests while we were there.

Assuming he was receiving the 2.12 you quote, he was paid about 54.00/hour while I was there. That's a 6 figure income. For the wait staff that never took the time or expended the effort to raise their own value, they will not ever receive the raised income- this is exactly like every other profession.

He said that he was a full time employee working there for over 20 years and that he had a family and did receive benefits.

The entry level position is what it is. The entry level employee is also what he is.

If the employee never increases his value, why on Earth would anyone pay him more than he's worth?

Do you ask to pay more for the car than it is worth when you're dealing to buy it? If the employer offers a defined wage and nobody takes him up on it, he needs to re-examine his plan.

If you are selling a car or a house and nobody takes up your offer, you may need to adjust your expectations. The market will determine the value.

At this moment, Trump is attempting to change the Market so that fewer applicants will be applying for more jobs and more employers will have more profits to use to attract a better level of employee.

If he's successful, then wages will rise. Wages and bonuses have already started to rise.

Trump is making your dreams come true!
 
What if...? said:
This is why this country is so divided.

You simply ducked past the point and declared victory.

Thirty years of a consistant growth in income and wealth across all quintiles abruptly ended and all the data shows that all the new wealth just went to the very, very top. Instead. Their money, but still, that is what happened.

All the graphs for GDP, productivity, the stock market, executive compensation all doing GREAT over time.

But wages for the majority stagnant. Median wage buys half what it did forty years ago.

Its not imaginary.
Click to expand...

In 1976, I was enjoying a week or so of being out of work. I started doing a paper route at the age of eleven, I'm close to retirement right now and, with no particular skills or talents except that I show up every day, I have been employed most of that time. there might have been 5 weeks out of that time when I was not employed. That's an estimate...

Moral of the story is that in 1976 i was making monthly payments on various debts and had no job or savings.

Now I have savings, make no monthly payments, and own all the stuff I own with no debts to creditors.

Wages might be stagnant as read in some Government report, but for me, they have been constantly increasing because I showed up every day and asked if there was anything I might do to help.

In the USA in my lifetime, the blessings are great and the demands are small. If you are feeling oppressed by the situation around here right now, with respect, you're nuts.

Either that or are intentionally ignorant. Either way, even in the imaginary Utopian times you describe, just getting to work is the best way to get the job done.

Just Do It.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Not exactly correct. We were clawing our way out before 1941. But WWII certainly sped up the process.

The question is how did it speed up the process? As a result of Pearl Harbor, government began spending massive sums of money hiring people. It instituted what would in normal times be called draconian measures to take money from the wealthy and force it to be invested in hiring people at a decent wage, either to make tanks, airplanes, bombs, etc. or to go fight in the war.

There was a great deal of demand by the end of WWII, because ordinary folks had a bunch of money to spend. Industry responded, and it created a virtuous economic cycle. Right wing policies have been gradually eroding that cycle, which is now nearly gone.
Click to expand...

That's an interesting view.

WW2 very likely created the modern middle class in the US.

Our economy became a carbon copy of the Nazi economy with privately owned industry conscripted to build the Arsenal of Democracy- our term for our Wehrmacht.

The massive investment by the government was matched by the populace with treasure and lives.

In both cases, the people surrendered previously cherished goals and supported the new approach to sweep away the perceived, common evil that was faced.

I suppose in all seriousness, given how the world has developed, Hitler created the American Century and the American colossus that stands astride the globe.
 
code1211 said:
In 1976, I was enjoying a week or so of being out of work. I started doing a paper route at the age of eleven, I'm close to retirement right now and, with no particular skills or talents except that I show up every day, I have been employed most of that time. there might have been 5 weeks out of that time when I was not employed. That's an estimate...

Moral of the story is that in 1976 i was making monthly payments on various debts and had no job or savings.

Now I have savings, make no monthly payments, and own all the stuff I own with no debts to creditors.

Wages might be stagnant as read in some Government report, but for me, they have been constantly increasing because I showed up every day and asked if there was anything I might do to help.

In the USA in my lifetime, the blessings are great and the demands are small. If you are feeling oppressed by the situation around here right now, with respect, you're nuts.

Either that or are intentionally ignorant. Either way, even in the imaginary Utopian times you describe, just getting to work is the best way to get the job done.

Just Do It.
Click to expand...

I am doing it. Always been easy for me.

Its all those who aren't as quick. Aren't as good with people.

I've watched them struggle more and more every year.

While folks on the right talk smack about them. Blame their plight 100% on them. Lionize those actually responsible.

You can put your head back in the sand now.

You're not going to be any help.
 
What if...? said:
I never said imminent.

The process is gradual. The old "frogs in a pot" method. Raise the temp slowly enough and they'll sit in that pot until they are peasants. Too hot too fast and they'll jump out.

And obesity has a lot to do with eating the cheapest food available because its what people can afford.

As I said, human progress since the adoption of the sedentary lifestyle has been three steps forward, two steps back. Because of the addictive behaviors I've listed.

So a case can be made that we're where we are in spite of their activites rather than as a result of them.
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Again, though, even with three steps forward and two back, after a million cycles, we are moved a million steps forward.

Societal evolution, like the biological kind, is not a directed exercise. It happens and the changes are the record of the track it followed. This is not to be mistaken for a path that was planned.

Well regulated capitalism combined with a free market is the method by which evolution can proceed and strengthen.

Intrusively strong governmental control is the method by which artificial interference delays arrival at the inevitable destination. This is why dictatorships and communist governments inevitably fall.

As with water in nature, men think they can control the flow of events, but they only imagine a power they do not possess.

https://www.allgreatquotes.com/the_prophet_quotes2.shtml

"You can muffle the drum, and you can loosen the strings of the lyre,

but who shall command the skylark not to sing?"

Kahlil Gibran
The Prophet, On Laws
 
What if...? said:
Why is well regulated capitalism necessary?

Serious question.

If capitalism requires good regulation it MUST mean that some need restraint.

And people don't like restraint. So they resist.

They lobby for de-regulation. Push for unlimited anonymous campaign donations to further this agenda.

And statistics show that congress does what money wants. If they want it they strongly tend to get it, even if the majority are strongly against it.

So in theory you are right. But in practice "well regulated capitalism" is a constant battle against folks with much greater resources and access to power.

If there wasn't an underlying problem there wouldn't be any NEED for regulations.
Click to expand...

The underlying problem is that people are people.

People are motivated by self interest and greed. However, this leads to one bully fighting another bully for control absent government. With government, rules are made to protect the "Little Guy".

At that point, then, the nature of the government is what is at question.

In the Case of the US, the government is defined by what it cannot do. That is a good thing. The government is potentially the biggest bully around. When it is peopled by unrestrained, pencil necked zealots, it inevitably becomes a tool of the elites.

The tension you describe between the "haves" and the "have nots" (as they used to be called) is what creates the "well regulated" part of well regulated capitalism.

The effects of too little regulation was revealed by the financial melt down in the US that spread around the world.

The effects of too much regulation is revealed by the various Soviet failings of products and systems keeping behind the rest of the world.

The tension of interference propels the swings of a pendulum across a line between two sides of an ideal and that is what reveals for us a "sweet spot". The sweet spot is also always changing depending on the prevailing conditions.

Capitalism allows a society, through the tension that it demands in this little swinging, to always redefine where that sweet spot is and to always move to it.

Capitalism does not defy natural human tendencies. It accepts, understands and uses them to advance the fortunes of the societies that embrace it.

Any other system is like like demanding that water run uphill.
 
What if...? said:
I am doing it. Always been easy for me.

Its all those who aren't as quick. Aren't as good with people.

I've watched them struggle more and more every year.

While folks on the right talk smack about them. Blame their plight 100% on them. Lionize those actually responsible.

You can put your head back in the sand now.

You're not going to be any help.
Click to expand...

As you wish.

I have trained or caused to be trained literally 100's of people to make a good living.

In the company at which I am currently employed, we have a great deal of trouble attracting domestically born workers to take jobs that pay $50,000/year.

I know. This is not "Rock Star" income. It's not that bad, though. It is long hours and hard work, but it's day shift with weekends off. I did it myself decades ago. Wage rates have risen dramatically for the entry level jobs.

Bringing in workers challenged by the English language who can produce is rewarding. Bringing in "American-Born" workers who run away at the first sign of overtime is disheartening.

Again, opportunity wears overalls and looks exactly like hard work.

Just Do It!

In the US, people can work hard and make pretty good money. Elsewhere, not so much. The last guy I trained to do this work was from Mexico where he managed 5 or 6 warehouses with all the troubles that implies for staffing and budget attainment.

Our communication was comical and we both understood the humor of the situation as we pantomimed the meanings back and forth.

In the job he was trained to do and subsequently became a very steady and valued employee who now trains others, he was making twice the money and working fewer hours even at 55 to 60 hours per week.

He chose to come here and chose to work hard and now chooses to help others as I did.
 
code1211 said:
A waiter or waitress elects to have the job they have after the entry level position status is passed.

At that point, they are welcome to elevate their responsibility and knowledge in the trade or not. If the waitress elects to remain at the college watering hole, that's her choice. If she completes her degree, that's great!

However, many, many waiters and waitresses elect to gather more knowledge and experience, AS THEY WOULD DO IN ANY OTHER PROFESSION, and increase their income through tips.

At a recent anniversary dinner with my fiance, we had a dinner for two that rolled up a tab of $250. The waiter spent about 15 minutes of our roughly 2 hours at the side of the table. His tip was about $50.00. His knowledge was extensive in regard to the history of the building, the exact descriptions of the menu items, wine pairings and matching menu items to our personal pallets.

He was serving other guests while we were there.

Assuming he was receiving the 2.12 you quote, he was paid about 54.00/hour while I was there. That's a 6 figure income. For the wait staff that never took the time or expended the effort to raise their own value, they will not ever receive the raised income- this is exactly like every other profession.

He said that he was a full time employee working there for over 20 years and that he had a family and did receive benefits.

The entry level position is what it is. The entry level employee is also what he is.

If the employee never increases his value, why on Earth would anyone pay him more than he's worth?

Do you ask to pay more for the car than it is worth when you're dealing to buy it? If the employer offers a defined wage and nobody takes him up on it, he needs to re-examine his plan.

If you are selling a car or a house and nobody takes up your offer, you may need to adjust your expectations. The market will determine the value.

At this moment, Trump is attempting to change the Market so that fewer applicants will be applying for more jobs and more employers will have more profits to use to attract a better level of employee.

If he's successful, then wages will rise. Wages and bonuses have already started to rise.

Trump is making your dreams come true!
Click to expand...
The fact that you linked your tip to the waiter getting a six figure income is a joke. A shout out to all the servers out there, do you make over a hundred thousand dollars?

You also proved my argument that establishment economics doesn't work for many. If the employer can't afford to pay more for some types labor, then he should start a new business.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
code1211 said:
A waiter or waitress elects to have the job they have after the entry level position status is passed.

At that point, they are welcome to elevate their responsibility and knowledge in the trade or not. If the waitress elects to remain at the college watering hole, that's her choice. If she completes her degree, that's great!

However, many, many waiters and waitresses elect to gather more knowledge and experience, AS THEY WOULD DO IN ANY OTHER PROFESSION, and increase their income through tips.

At a recent anniversary dinner with my fiance, we had a dinner for two that rolled up a tab of $250. The waiter spent about 15 minutes of our roughly 2 hours at the side of the table. His tip was about $50.00. His knowledge was extensive in regard to the history of the building, the exact descriptions of the menu items, wine pairings and matching menu items to our personal pallets.

He was serving other guests while we were there.

Assuming he was receiving the 2.12 you quote, he was paid about 54.00/hour while I was there. That's a 6 figure income. For the wait staff that never took the time or expended the effort to raise their own value, they will not ever receive the raised income- this is exactly like every other profession.

He said that he was a full time employee working there for over 20 years and that he had a family and did receive benefits.

The entry level position is what it is. The entry level employee is also what he is.

If the employee never increases his value, why on Earth would anyone pay him more than he's worth?

Do you ask to pay more for the car than it is worth when you're dealing to buy it? If the employer offers a defined wage and nobody takes him up on it, he needs to re-examine his plan.

If you are selling a car or a house and nobody takes up your offer, you may need to adjust your expectations. The market will determine the value.

At this moment, Trump is attempting to change the Market so that fewer applicants will be applying for more jobs and more employers will have more profits to use to attract a better level of employee.

If he's successful, then wages will rise. Wages and bonuses have already started to rise.

Trump is making your dreams come true!
Click to expand...
Congratulations on your upcoming wedding.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
 
Dirt Sands said:
The fact that you linked your tip to the waiter getting a six figure income is a joke. A shout out to all the servers out there, do you make over a hundred thousand dollars?

You also proved my argument that establishment economics doesn't work for many. If the employer can't afford to pay more for some types labor, then he should start a new business.

Sent from my Z833 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

The fact that you are blind to the real economics of the restaurant industry makes me wonder why you included it in your argument.

Have you ever actually spoken to the servers at the high end restaurants? They are a pretty interesting and knowledgable bunch.

Incidentally, the guys and gals who serve us when we dine at the breakfast place we like the best don't make that kind of bank. They also don't have that depth of knowledge in their industry.

As I said, it's like any other profession: the best make more. They should make more. They've earned it.
 
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