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GOP poised to win the PR war

Vern said:
Bubba, please explain why you think playing dumb is good for your conservative agenda? you do it enough that I have to assume its intentional. I just dont see the point. thanks in advance
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You're welcome afterward.
Asking the right question to focus on the issue in order to spur a response and debate isn't playing dumb.
If you read the subsequent comments and responses you saw it helped get to the core of the matter.
 
As per the OP: 'GOP poised to win the PR war'

When the Democrats, and the 'news' (political propaganda) media, and all the opinion pundits all say the same tired or narrative about tax cuts, i.e. "only the wealthy are going to benefit", when Public opposition to tax bill grows as vote approaches is what people believe in spite of the fact that 80% of the electorate are going to get to keep more of their own money, I don't believe that the 'GOP poised to win the PR war'. Not in the least.

The leftists in the 'news' (political propaganda) media and the leftists Democrats appear to still have a tight grip on the information gruel ladled out to their all too willing sheeple to lap up and believe.
 
CriticalThought said:
I think the Dems blew it. They did their Chicken Little routine on the tax bill but they lost the message. The GOP has branded this bill as a "tax cut for the middle class" and on the end of the day, more than 80 percent of Americans will see a tax cut their first year. Yeah, some future Congress may allow the individual rates to go up, but it is unlikely. So the Dems who successfully allied with the national media to create the impression that this was only a tax cut for the wealthy may have done a disservice to themselves in the long run. Granted that the wealthy will enjoy six times the benefits as the rest of us combined, but that doesn't make as compelling a soundbyte as "Armageddon!"

The message could have been on debt, high interest rates, rising inflation, and low wages. Once consumer confidence peaks, reality will likely set in, and the true cost of this bill will not be measured by how much of your paycheck you get to keep, but if your paycheck remains the same wage, buys less than it did before, and is split in more ways to pay down debts. The GOP knows nothing is free, and they are betting that average Americans will forget it and reward them for generously undermining their future to finance a measly middle class tax cut and a massive wealthy tax cut. Let's see how it plays out. My money is on the GOP.
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Ironically, they are bribing their voters to turn the other cheek to the fact that they've been bribed by the superrich.

This is exactly what they accuse democrats of doing, giving out "free" money to win votes, but their gullible supporters won't care.

GOP's bill doesn't look good to anyone with a brain, but that's a shockingly small segment of the American public.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
And the debt will rise.

People do love "free stuff".

This is the Repub Santa, with 1.5 trillion in presents in his bag. The Repub Grinch will be along in a year or 2 trying to pay for it by stealing from SS and Medicare.

America is pretty myopic.
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yes, the debt most likely will rise. Is it not rising without the new tax bill?
What is your proof that Congress will steal from SS and Medicare?

How about we reduce some of the "entitlement" programs, foreign aid, etc.
 
bubbabgone said:
You're welcome afterward.
Asking the right question to focus on the issue in order to spur a response and debate isn't playing dumb.
If you read the subsequent comments and responses you saw it helped get to the core of the matter.
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Bubba, it wasnt just an ignorant question. it was also an ignorant statement. But it seems like you're admitting you knew it was dumb. Thats a start. But I didn't see a response that justified your dishonest or ignorant question and statement. here read what you wrote again. slower this time.
bubbabgone said:
How will the debt rise?
Debt is driven by spending.
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I cant help but think its just a timesuck dodge to avoid the fact that republicans are flaming lying hypocrites where deficits are concerned.
 
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eohrnberger said:
As per the OP: 'GOP poised to win the PR war'

When the Democrats, and the 'news' (political propaganda) media, and all the opinion pundits all say the same tired or narrative about tax cuts, i.e. "only the wealthy are going to benefit", when Public opposition to tax bill grows as vote approaches is what people believe in spite of the fact that 80% of the electorate are going to get to keep more of their own money, I don't believe that the 'GOP poised to win the PR war'. Not in the least.

The leftists in the 'news' (political propaganda) media and the leftists Democrats appear to still have a tight grip on the information gruel ladled out to their all too willing sheeple to lap up and believe.
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True enough ... normally ... but this is the kind of thing that will be demonstrably working or demonstrably failing.
Polling that was done on this prior to passing was influenced not by what was known but by what was heard.
After it's implemented, assuming it works as touted, the usual suspects will continue to push the same line.
They will likely trot out some who are not better off and portray them as typical of the average.
But the great majority of folks will see for themselves that they had been fed a load of BS.
To be honest, because of that I'm pretty surprised the opposition appears to be continuing the same strategy.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2017/images/12/18/rel12a.-.trump.and.taxes.pdf


"A total of 1,001 adults were interviewed by telephone nationwide by live interviewers calling both landline and cell
phones. Interviews were conducted in English and Spanish. Among the entire sample, 33% described themselves
as Democrats, 23% described themselves as Republicans, and 44% described themselves as independents or
members of another party."


33% Democrats
23% Republicans

What happens when you over-sample democrats?
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the good news is at least you didn't completely make up the narrative out of thin air. baby steps. the problem is you quit reading once you found a phrase or sentence fragment you think proves your point.

"All respondents were asked questions concerning basic demographics, and the entire sample was weighted to reflect national Census figures for gender, race, age, education, region of country, and telephone usage"

But lets face it, you have an obedient agenda to flail at facts so claiming the CNN poll is skewed is all you can do. I know, lets look at other polls.

In a USA Today poll, 32 percent support the bill, 48 percent oppose it.
In a CNN poll, 33 percent support the bill, 55 percent oppose it.
In a Wall Street Journal/NBC poll yesterday, 24 percent say it is a good idea, 41 percent say it’s a bad one.

And many surveys echo one by the New York Times and Survey Monkey, that only a third of Americans expect their taxes to go down.
Why Trump's tax reform triumph isn't matched by public enthusiasm | Fox News

so RH, here's a crazy idea, why not post a poll from a "reputable" source that tells you want to believe.


Careful, you start with your usual stupid posts, I'll just ignore you.
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and by "stupid posts" you mean responding to you as if this is a debate forum. Look RH, you don't need excuses to cowardly cut and run. Just cowardly cut and run.
 
Vern said:
Bubba, it wasnt just an ignorant question. it was also an ignorant statement. But it seems like you're admitting you knew it was dumb. Thats a start. But I didn't see a response that justified you pretending not justify your dishonest or ignorant question and statement. here read what you wrote again. slower this time.


I cant help but think its just a timesuck dodge to avoid the fact that republicans are flaming lying hypocrites where deficits are concerned.
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That kind of comment is why people resist responding to you.
I thought I'd give you another try but you're still the same.
Buh-bye.
 
bubbabgone said:
True enough ... normally ... but this is the kind of thing that will be demonstrably working or demonstrably failing.
Polling that was done on this prior to passing was influenced not by what was known but by what was heard.
Click to expand...

I've heard reported that Regan's tax cut wasn't popular the first few months, but much more so the longer they were in place. Probably something similar going on here then.

After it's implemented, assuming it works as touted, the usual suspects will continue to push the same line.
They will likely trot out some who are not better off and portray them as typical of the average.
Click to expand...

I suspect so as well, although I have to say, Schumer, Pelosi, Bernie and the rest are looking awfully foolish shouting this'll be the death of us and that it'll only benefit corporations and the wealthy, when AT&T and Comcast come out with announcements of large infrastructure investments and non-executive bonuses to be paid.

Given that we are at a historic low point in unemployment, and now businesses with a faction of the tax obligations than previously, large projects in the offing, it would seem to make sense that the labor market is going to tighten, cause employers to work to keep the workforce they have, and compete with each other in the labor market for the workforce they need to hire, that this may finally be the raising of middle class wages which have been stagnant for some decades now. That would certainly be something. Of course, I've been accused to being an optimist from time to time.

But the great majority of folks will see for themselves that they had been fed a load of BS.
To be honest, because of that I'm pretty surprised the opposition appears to be continuing the same strategy.
Click to expand...

It may be nothing more than confirmation bias, something that pretty much every has, but I suspect you are right, they'll realize this, but on the other hand, the electorate's attention span and memory have been zapped into near nothingness by their phones and playstations.
 
mike2810 said:
yes, the debt most likely will rise. Is it not rising without the new tax bill?
What is your proof that Congress will steal from SS and Medicare?

How about we reduce some of the "entitlement" programs, foreign aid, etc.
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I posted Rubio's statement about SS and Medicare previously. I think some foreign aid is actually a good thing, but I know there's also waste. Example : why do we give billions to Israel every year? (Rhetorical - I know the answer.) Foreign aid is small potatoes, though.

Medicare and especially SS are different because all of us who work and pay taxes pay into those specific programs all of our working lives. SS should not be cut because the GOP wants to pad its wealthy donor's accounts. If they could come with a tax plan that really paid for itself, that would not be necessary.

I agree Medicare as currently set up is not sustainable. Since old people who are no longer able to work should have health coverage, come up with a fix that does that. Let 'em die doesn't float with me, but I guess some are okay with that idea.
 
CLAX1911 said:
only if the government continues spending like a teenage girl who stole her daddy's credit card.

Stop going into debt cut spending.

People do love "free stuff". [/QUOTEP income isn't free you have to work for that.

people getting to keep more of the money they worked for an earned is not a gift. Not anymore than someone robbing you at gunpoint but letting you keep half of your money is a gift.


The government should cut spending.


Spending more and more and taking more and more to pay for an ever growing class of people that doesn't work is myopic.
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No one has ever pointed a gun at me and forced me to live in a country with a government and military that required large amounts of tax money to function. I would think you could find a country with no IRS, military or government and enjoy the libertarian paradise.

Meanwhile, I paid a lot of money over my lifetime into SS and Medicare and I expect a return on that investment. Cutting those things to give the .1% a huge windfall isn't a good tradeoff for me.

You can cut the military as much as you are comfortable with. I think it's over 600 billion per year, that should be able to cover the cost of the tax cut with some left over. I'll even let you allocate the remainder.
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<alt>doxygen said:
Since old people who are no longer able to work should have health coverage, come up with a fix that does that. Let 'em die doesn't float with me, but I guess some are okay with that idea.
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Yes. "old people" should have health coverage. Part A is free if you paid into it while working.

Don't you believe individuals should plan for their retirement? I have been retired over 13 years. I have part A and health insurance to cover doctors and Rx. No, its not medicare (except part A).
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
What happens when you over-sample democrats?
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News flash! There are, in fact, more people identifying as Democrats than Republicans. Meaning they should sample more Democrats than Republicans.

Gallup has the latest numbers as:
25% Republican
30% Democrats
42% Independent
Party Affiliation | Gallup Historical Trends

When they include the way that Independents lean, the gap is even larger:

k8cywdhydukq3-lz80rihq.png
 
mike2810 said:
Yes. "old people" should have health coverage. Part A is free if you paid into it while working.

Don't you believe individuals should plan for their retirement? I have been retired over 13 years. I have part A and health insurance to cover doctors and Rx. No, its not medicare (except part A).
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Sure. My wife and I both have. If the market doesn't tank while we're exposed and we never need some sort of expensive geriatric care, we should be okay.

You are collecting SS, are you not? Decent (as in worth even bothering with) health coverage can be hard to buy if you have pre-existing conditions.

I watched the Republicans pass Medicare-D, but not factor in paying for it. That may have to go away or be replaced.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
And the debt will rise.

People do love "free stuff".

This is the Repub Santa, with 1.5 trillion in presents in his bag. The Repub Grinch will be along in a year or 2 trying to pay for it by stealing from SS and Medicare.

America is pretty myopic.
Click to expand...

Pre Obama debt 10 trillion. Post Obama debt 20 trillion. The debt thingy doesn't fly.

Any party messes with SS or Medicare will be known as the minority party for decades.

Repubs scored a major victory. Add to that the claim that Obamacare has been gutted, Repubs in '18 and in '20.
 
iguanaman said:
LOL Spending is a given, revenue is determined by tax rates passed by Congress. The difference is what causes debt.
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Only in librologic is spending a given. Government revenue is determined by gross private income.
 
jimbo said:
Pre Obama debt 10 trillion. Post Obama debt 20 trillion. The debt thingy doesn't fly.

Any party messes with SS or Medicare will be known as the minority party for decades.

Repubs scored a major victory. Add to that the claim that Obamacare has been gutted, Repubs in '18 and in '20.
Click to expand...

Add in the pre-Reagan / post-Reagan debt, then the pre-GWB / post-GWB debt and you'll have most of the picture. The biggest single factor that increased debt during total of the Obama 8 years was the GB tax cuts. Here we go again...
 
<alt>doxygen said:
.No one has ever pointed a gun at me and forced me to live in a country with a government and military that required large amounts of tax money to function. I would think you could find a country with no IRS, military or government and enjoy the libertarian paradise.
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it doesn't take that much money for the government to function the military should be our biggest expense. It takes a lot of money for social programs. Giving away entitlements which isn't the government's job.

Meanwhile, I paid a lot of money over my lifetime into SS and Medicare and I expect a return on that investment.
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that isn't an investment that was a tax the government takes that money and spends it on stupid s***.

You and every other person expects a return there's going to come a day when there isn't any more. The question is do we cut it off sooner and not go completely broke or would do me just go into massive debt until our currency losses solvency.

There should be opt out plans for people I can put everything that I would give to Social Security into a real investment and thus opt out of Social Security.

Cutting those things to give the .1% a huge windfall isn't a good tradeoff for me.
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because you are self-centered. And you think everyone else is too. Big corporations hire and pay people who's then pay taxes and put money into your Social Security.

You can cut the military as much as you are comfortable with. I think it's over 600 billion per year, that should be able to cover the cost of the tax cut with some left over. I'll even let you allocate the remainder.
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Wow you really are self-centered.
 
Visbek said:
News flash! There are, in fact, more people identifying as Democrats than Republicans. Meaning they should sample more Democrats than Republicans.

Gallup has the latest numbers as:
25% Republican
30% Democrats
42% Independent
Party Affiliation | Gallup Historical Trends

When they include the way that Independents lean, the gap is even larger:

k8cywdhydukq3-lz80rihq.png
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Quite right.
I mentioned that very thing in another thread about Tax plan approval today.
The problem is that the affiliation gaps in the 2 recent polls about Tax plan approval were larger than Gallup's ... one was twice as large.
That and considering Gallup's numbers vary a lot from month to month complicates the matter more.
 
eohrnberger said:
I've heard reported that Regan's tax cut wasn't popular the first few months, but much more so the longer they were in place. Probably something similar going on here then.



I suspect so as well, although I have to say, Schumer, Pelosi, Bernie and the rest are looking awfully foolish shouting this'll be the death of us and that it'll only benefit corporations and the wealthy, when AT&T and Comcast come out with announcements of large infrastructure investments and non-executive bonuses to be paid.

Given that we are at a historic low point in unemployment, and now businesses with a faction of the tax obligations than previously, large projects in the offing, it would seem to make sense that the labor market is going to tighten, cause employers to work to keep the workforce they have, and compete with each other in the labor market for the workforce they need to hire, that this may finally be the raising of middle class wages which have been stagnant for some decades now. That would certainly be something. Of course, I've been accused to being an optimist from time to time.



It may be nothing more than confirmation bias, something that pretty much every has, but I suspect you are right, they'll realize this, but on the other hand, the electorate's attention span and memory have been zapped into near nothingness by their phones and playstations.
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One of the corporations in the news yesterday said they would raise their lowest level wage to $15/hour.
That's certainly better than Government mandated $15 for everyone.
 
<alt>doxygen said:
Sure. My wife and I both have. If the market doesn't tank while we're exposed and we never need some sort of expensive geriatric care, we should be okay.

You are collecting SS, are you not? Decent (as in worth even bothering with) health coverage can be hard to buy if you have pre-existing conditions.

I watched the Republicans pass Medicare-D, but not factor in paying for it. That may have to go away or be replaced.
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Actually , no both my wife and I do not draw SS. We are both (retired under the old Civil Service Retirement System). During work we only paid into Medicare (for part A).
So you could guess, health insurance is through the Federal Employee Health Benefit . As far as pre existing conditions. Didn't the ACA take care of that? Until it is repealed/replaced pre existing conditions should not be a factor.

I did pay in SS when I first did work out of high school. When I went to work for the "Feds", CSRS employees did not pay into SS. Unlike todays FERS retirement system. If I was to go to work in the private sector and get the quarters I am short. There would be a SS offset to my pension. Not worth the time and effort. I did look into it when I first retired 13 years ago.
 
bubbabgone said:
One of the corporations in the news yesterday said they would raise their lowest level wage to $15/hour.
That's certainly better than Government mandated $15 for everyone.
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But a mandated 15 dollar an hour wage is better than one that exists only at the whim of the corporation.
 
bubbabgone said:
One of the corporations in the news yesterday said they would raise their lowest level wage to $15/hour.
That's certainly better than Government mandated $15 for everyone.
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I agree with that. Might be that this corporation is already feeling the tightening labor market, and this is their opening big to compete for the additional workforce they need or think they'll need.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
But a mandated 15 dollar an hour wage is better than one that exists only at the whim of the corporation.
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The best $15 an hour wage is one driven to be so by labor market conditions.
 
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