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One dog has licked its Masters hand

trblmkr said:
You're not. 90% of the gains to the actual consumers in this consumer based economy will be spent. The gains to the top 10%, will be horded and routed back into the hedge funds and similar vehicles that scrape the cream off the top. Within 20 or so years,almost of all wealth will be controlled by the 1%. This will be the end of the US, not because of the socialist fears of the right. It will be the capitalist dreams of the right come true.
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Please be specific on what I was wrong about

Spouting leftist talking points won’t quite cut it

You believe I am wrong, ok....where?

The points I made to Tres...can you actually talk about them?
 
gdgyva said:
Please be specific on what I was wrong about
Every family will not benefit. Large middle class families will lose deductions that may total more than the new deduction. You expect, correctly, that any savings to the lower to middle class will be recycled into economy. Yea consumers.

Spouting leftist talking points won’t quite cut it
What are those? I didn't get the memo.
You believe I am wrong, ok....where?
We have done this before. Corporations repatriated funds and paid them out in dividends and stock buy backs. There is no reason to believe that will not be the case this time. As a matter of fact, CEO's said as much in a meeting with Manuchin.

The points I made to Tres...can you actually talk about them?
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What? That funds will be repatriated and put to work here? That is highly unlikely. Why would I risk my money on a long term investment when I can just short the housing market or .... and make 25% in five years?
 
trblmkr said:
You're not. 90% of the gains to the actual consumers in this consumer based economy will be spent. The gains to the top 10%, will be horded and routed back into the hedge funds and similar vehicles that scrape the cream off the top. Within 20 or so years,almost of all wealth will be controlled by the 1%. This will be the end of the US, not because of the socialist fears of the right. It will be the capitalist dreams of the right come true.
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Basically, the entire USA will be turned into Kansas...or SEARS, take your pick.
Look, if all this "trickle down" nonsense was truly workable, middle class upward mobility and middle class economic health would already have been at record levels a long time ago, because the Right's been pushing this for forty years.
In laboratories like Kansas, add the Ayn Randian icing on the cake and you've basically given the Right EVERYTHING it ever wanted.
Now look at Kansas, look at their economy, which is in a shambles, all except for the folks at the top.

Failed economic models don't last long in the private sector, in the world of business. The only reason this model has survived for forty-plus years is because it is NOT a failure for those who OWN most of the assets that make up the private sector. How could it possibly be a failure for them? It's a giveaway to them.
It's inverted socialism...for the wealthy.

For everyone else though, for people who punch a time clock, it's murderously cruel, it's draconian, it's the textbook Charles Dickens nightmare come to life.
And the wealthy spend huge sums to concoct well funded propaganda to prop up the apologetics to justify it, and even though none of it holds up to scrutiny, what average wage earner has the time to pick through all the untruths much less the bully pulpit to fight it?
They don't, and they're beaten to a pulp and worn out from having to keep their heads above water anyway, so even if they could, they lack the energy to fight it for very long.

The average working stiffs have registered their dislike for this GOP scam, therefore the GOP is going to pass it anyway.
And that's because too many average working stiffs have also stopped bothering to even show up at the polls for mid-terms, and even for the General Elections. Therefore they get exactly the leadership they deserve. They've also been conditioned to believe that "at least we still have JOBS, we should count ourselves lucky."
Give it time...

The Republicans are well aware that what they do today spells a surefire backlash next November, thus they are on the way out, and they don't know when they will get another opportunity to do this much damage to the government, to the public sphere, and to grab the last shreds of available assets at fire sale prices.
It will be take generations to recover from these depredations.
The only thing missing right now is a world war to make the nightmare complete.
Give it time, they're cooking that one up as we speak.
No one will dare to challenge a "war president".
They know how well that formula works, too.
One manufactured national security crisis coming right up!

Let me just ask one question:
What does anyone have to say that is GOOD about this tax plan?
Can anyone name THREE things that directly affect THEM that they like about it?
 
gdgyva said:
Every family will realize some benefit from the tax plan....again for at least a few years

Based on a few items I have read, the median household of 69k will be around 1100 year.....

That will mostly go back into the economy.....it isn’t a windfall, but when you times that by 100 million people it adds up

And corporations will hopefully patriate some of their funds which have been sitting overseas for awhile and put it to work here

Again...I know some of this if just conjecture....no one CAN know what the results will be....

But I would like to believe I am being fairly realistic....dunno, I guess time will tell
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Absolutely. Presumably any money an individual gains will go back into the economy. But I remember that notion being pushed with the Bush tax cuts, which yielded about the same take home pay gain. It worked for a while, then the bubble burst and the deficit exploded.

I agree, time will tell.
 
Tanngrisnir said:
Other than the fact that there is no credible evidence that this will lead to more jobs, more growth or higher wages, spot on!
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Is there credible evidence it will not?
 
trblmkr said:
What? That funds will be repatriated and put to work here? That is highly unlikely. Why would I risk my money on a long term investment when I can just short the housing market or .... and make 25% in five years?
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Every family will not benefit. Large middle class families will lose deductions that may total more than the new deduction. cite please

You expect, correctly, that any savings to the lower to middle class will be recycled into economy. Yea consumers. exactly...at an average of approx 1100 per year based on the median HH income of 69k....which is why that WILL HELP the economy at least in the short term

We have done this before. Corporations repatriated funds and paid them out in dividends and stock buy backs. There is no reason to believe that will not be the case this time. As a matter of fact, CEO's said as much in a meeting with Manuchin i own stocks, as does a number of my friends....my dividends will be what keeps my income close to my current level as i retire in a few years....most of us in this generation dont have pensions, so it is our savings plus social security that will have to due....if we planned it out right, and i think we did, we will have an income close to 80-90k annually ....and still be able to leave a nice nestegg for the kids and grandkids.....what is wrong with companies paying dividends and rebuying stock? you act as if it is against the moral or ethical standards of today....i just dont get that....
 
gdgyva said:
Every family will not benefit. Large middle class families will lose deductions that may total more than the new deduction. cite please

Individual deductions are going away. So are deductions for college age children still in school.

You expect, correctly, that any savings to the lower to middle class will be recycled into economy. Yea consumers. exactly...at an average of approx 1100 per year based on the median HH income of 69k....which is why that WILL HELP the economy at least in the short term

That is assuming that cuts in other programs next year don't eat that $1,100. And just maybe they will do the smart thing and put it in their IRA.

We have done this before. Corporations repatriated funds and paid them out in dividends and stock buy backs. There is no reason to believe that will not be the case this time. As a matter of fact, CEO's said as much in a meeting with Manuchin i own stocks, as does a number of my friends....my dividends will be what keeps my income close to my current level as i retire in a few years....most of us in this generation dont have pensions, so it is our savings plus social security that will have to due....if we planned it out right, and i think we did, we will have an income close to 80-90k annually ....and still be able to leave a nice nestegg for the kids and grandkids.....what is wrong with companies paying dividends and rebuying stock? you act as if it is against the moral or ethical standards of today....i just dont get that....
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I have a 403B and a 401K. I also have a fixed benefit pension. (I am aware of how lucky I am, but even that isn't safe. They raised the minimum age by 2 years for payments in 2010) I like it when they go up. Nothing immoral or unethical about it. But this was sold by saying that jobs will come back, companies will raise wages and hire new employees. History says that not much of that is going to happen. I hope it does. It is the lying about it like used car salesmen that is immoral and unethical. Mnuchin said 100's of people were working on an analysis at treasury and then he plops down a one page summary that would get a first year econ student an F.
 
WCH said:
You should stop that. ��
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That I should tell the truth? Oddly, no one has posted anything substantive to what I wrote, and the few who seem to support this tax bill try to sell it on the idea that middle class families will see an extra thousand dollars or two for a few years. Long-term, however, this bill will only deepen the structural inequalities in our economy...and we will once more get a profound lesson in the reality that our politicians and economic elites keep thinking they can just flout. This is a cycle that comes up again and again and again in history, and it always ends the same way. I really don't understand why it keeps up like that, but it does.
 
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