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Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Fenton said:
Lets get something straight. There's nothing " progressive " or revolutionary or new about the regressive and inherently authortarian ideology you subscribe too

Progressives like Bernie Sanders for ex, sell their version of Socialism the same way it was sold back when Marx penned the Communist manifesto back in 1848

By exploiting the naivete of the uniformed and ideological younger generation, they use demagoguery and appeals to emotion to create division among the classes and then exploit that division for the purposes of iimplementing their authortarian agenda.

Socialism is crashing and burning all over the world, and yet your loyal to it

There is nothing new, innovative or progressive about the Left wing agenda and ss for Progressives being smarter, more informed ? I find Progressives to be rather dense generally and there's a good reason why.

All this knowledge you people claim to have exclusive rights over is just a long list of talking points. Your not nearly as clever as you think you and you people prove that on a daily basis here
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The Earth is not 6000 years old. Man made global warming is real and dangerous. Trickle down economics does not work. Those are facts, not liberal talking points. This may be a free country, but conservatives seem to be under this mis-impression that that means they are free to just make up their own facts and reality anytime they don't like the real ones, ie, "alternative facts". There is no controversy or debate on these issues among the experts in those fields. There are no alternative facts. And no, you are not free to make up your own. So first, before you get yourself all worked up about liberal tyranny, I just want to hear some conservatives acknowledge these facts. We can talk later about what we should do about them. But denying basic facts and confusing an already ignorant public with a deluge of propaganda, deliberate misinformation, and demagoguery to confuse those facts should not be an option.
 
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Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Interesting thread that I want to read completely when I have more time.

I always thought that ideally conservatism would act like a clutch/brake mechanism on progress, not acting to stymie it but rather to moderate it in sort of a (put very simplistically) "look before you leap" way.

Seems what we have now is a group that wants to go back to the 50's. 1850's or 1950's depending on the subject.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

akyron said:
Maybe so. The ops itself seems to be confusing evangelicalism with conservatism off the bat though.

"As the founders understood it, the main threat to freedom comes from the federal government. Our rights, consequently, are protections against excessive government intrusion and intervention.
That’s why the Bill of Rights typically begins, “Congress shall make no law.” By placing fetters or
restraints on the federal government, we secure our basic rights and liberties. The objective of these rights and liberties is for Americans to devote their lives to the “pursuit of happiness.” Happiness is the goal and rights and liberties are the means to that goal. Right-wingers in America are the ones who seek to protect the rights of Americans to pursue happiness by limiting the power of the central state.
American conservatives also seek to conserve the transcendent moral order that is not specified in the Constitution but clearly underlies theAmerican founding. Consider, as a single example, the proposition from the Declaration of Independence that we are all “created equal” and endowed with “inalienable rights” including the “right to life.” This means for
conservatives that human life is sacred, it has a dignity that results fromdivine creation, it is so precious that the right to life cannot be sold even with the consent of the buyer and seller, and finally that no government can violatethe right to life without trespassing on America’s most basic moral and political values."
"So much for the political Right, what about the Left? The Left in America is defined by its hostility to the restrictions placed by the founders on the federal government. That’s why leftists regularly deplore constitutional
restraints on government power, proclaiming the Constitution woefully out of date and calling for us to adopt instead a “living Constitution”—a Constitution adapted to what the Left considers progressive. Indeed many
leftists today use “progressive” as their preferred political label. They used to call themselves “liberal,” a term which refers to liberality or freedom; now they use “progressive,” a term which identifies them with the future as
opposed to the past. Progress by itself is a vacant term; we need to know what progressives mean when they use it. What they mean is progress toward greater federal power and federal control."--Dinesh Desouza


You may have something there as far as there being some kind of genetic or biological behavioral difference.


Science says liberals, not conservatives, are psychotic

"Turns out liberals are the real authoritarians.

A political-science journal that published an oft-cited study claiming conservatives were more likely to show traits associated with “psychoticism” now says it got it wrong. Very wrong.

The American Journal of Political Science published a correction this year saying that the 2012 paper has “an error” — and that liberal political beliefs, not conservative ones, are actually linked to psychoticism.

“The interpretation of the coding of the political attitude items in the descriptive and preliminary analyses portion of the manuscript was exactly reversed,” the journal said in the startling correction."
"The erroneous report has been cited 45 times, according to Thomson Reuters Web of Science.

Brad Verhulst, a Virginia Commonwealth University researcher and a co-author of the paper, said he was not sure who was to blame."

That blame statement was amusing.
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First I want some conservative here to not be psychotic enough to admit that the Earth is not 6000 years old. Then we can talk about who is really psychotic or not.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

<alt>doxygen said:
Interesting thread that I want to read completely when I have more time.

I always thought that ideally conservatism would act like a clutch/brake mechanism on progress, not acting to stymie it but rather to moderate it in sort of a (put very simplistically) "look before you leap" way.

Seems what we have now is a group that wants to go back to the 50's. 1850's or 1950's depending on the subject.
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I think 1650s may be closer to the mark: as in Puritans burning their witches at the stake, trial by ordeal, a return to "moral purity", and striking the fear of the Lord into every unbelieving heart.

Make America Great Again!
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
First I want some conservative here to not be psychotic enough to admit that the Earth is not 6000 years old. Then we can talk about who is really psychotic or not.
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Thanks for the good example of people that confuse evangelicals with conservatives....

Put the discussion of psychotic behaviors on the queue with your therapist. I am sure they will be willing to listen.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

akyron said:
Thanks for the good example of people that confuse evangelicals with conservatives....

Put the discussion of psychotic behaviors on the queue with your therapist. I am sure they will be willing to listen.
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No, no confusion. Evangelicals are a big part of the conservative movement. But if you are a non-Evangelical conservative, feel free to pick from any of the numerous other issues listed: trickle down theory, global change denialism, etc....
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Mycroft said:
LOL!!

First you ask me a question...then you answer it for me...then you ask me to justify the answer you gave for me.

Dude...what do you need ME for in your discussion?

In any case, what makes you think I hold to trickle down economics or climate change denial?
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If you don't buy any of that stuff, what makes you think you are any kind of conservative? Those are the biggest conservative issues of the day.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
No, no confusion. Evangelicals are a big part of the conservative movement. But if you are a non-Evangelical conservative, feel free to pick from any of the numerous other issues listed: trickle down theory, global change denialism, etc....
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There is little foundation for discussion because your fundamental ideology on its face is a plan to rob others and I do not wish to be robbed any longer.

There is a tie in there.

God is government and can give or take away human rights < God gives mankind inalienable rights and government must be curtailed to prevent the oppression of mans rights.

The drill down into the specifics is of little consequence once the appropriate definitions are outlined and agreed upon, I am sure I have already done so numerous times over many years..
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
If you don't buy any of that stuff, what makes you think you are any kind of conservative? Those are the biggest conservative issues of the day.
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The fact that you believe that is a problem to begin with and shows we are not equipped with the proper definitions.

You should just create a thread with those specific issues you wish to harp upon and see who jumps in rather than blanket generalize a group of people.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
If you don't buy any of that stuff, what makes you think you are any kind of conservative? Those are the biggest conservative issues of the day.
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Again, don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't say I "don't" buy any of that stuff, either.

Anyway, what makes me think I'm any kind of conservative?

Mycroft said:
Modern American conservatism has evolved away from Burke's definition to an ideology of personal responsibility, personal choice, limited and small government. The ever-increasing gains in knowledge and technology are not a problem.
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Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Mycroft said:
Anyway, what makes me think I'm any kind of conservative?
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Ummmm... because maybe that's what it says under your name?
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

akyron said:
There is little foundation for discussion because your fundamental ideology on its face is a plan to rob others and I do not wish to be robbed any longer.
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This thread is not about ideology. So relax. It's about facts. Two different things: what is, and what we should do. This thread is about the former. Let's not worry about the latter, or what we think we should do. This is a free country, and we are free to choose our ideology. But we are not free to choose our own facts and reality. There is only one set of facts: what is. I cannot say unicorns exist, and then want people to base domestic policy based on that.

I believe you are afraid that if you acknowledge certain facts, then certain things of what should be done automatically follow. Not necessarily so. You can acknowledge that the Earth is not 6000 years old, and we can still talk about whether God or government are responsible for human rights.

We can acknowledge the fact that trickle down economics theory does not work, and we can still debate the details of fiscal and tax policy.

But what you are not free to do is flatly deny well established facts or make up your own because you are afraid of what acknowledging the actual facts MIGHT lead to. You can't make up your own reality and facts. That's not being a fascist liberal tyrant. That's just being in touch with reality, ie, sanity.
 
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Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
Ummmm... because maybe that's what it says under your name?
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???

I was just repeating your question...then I answered it.

Didn't you understand that? Or are you playing games?
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Mycroft said:
???

I was just repeating your question...then I answered it.

Didn't you understand that? Or are you playing games?
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Oh, I didn't realize what you were doing.

But I got it now. It's about freedom, Personal responsibility. Got it. Those are great things.

But that's not the topic of discussion here. Stay focused. We are just talking about why you would want to deny well established facts, or make up your own, just because you worry about what the actual facts MIGHT mean for your ideology? Shouldn't the facts come first? Or should they immediately get denied and new ones made up in their place if they even LOOK like they may threaten the ideology?

If I want the freedom to drive as I like, and someone tells me there is a sharp curve up ahead, should I immediately start yelling at them for wanting to take my freedoms away?
 
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Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
Oh, I didn't realize what you were doing.

But I got it now. It's about freedom, Personal responsibility. Got it. Those are great things.

But that's not the topic of discussion here. Stay focused. We are just talking about why you would want to deny well established facts, or make up your own, just because you worry about what the actual facts MIGHT mean for your ideology? Shouldn't the facts come first? Or should they immediately get denied and new ones made up in their place if they even LOOK like they may threaten the ideology?

If I want the freedom to drive as I like, and someone tells me there is a sharp curve up ahead, should I immediately start yelling at them for wanting to take my freedoms away?
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I'm thinking you don't remember what your own thread is about. Here's part of your own OP:

The ideology of conservatism is based on adherence to traditional values and trying to maintain the status quo. Edmund Burke, the 18th century Englishman and one of the founders of conservatism as an ideology, said that too much change in a society too fast creates instability and chaos. He pointed to the French Revolution and the chaos, instability, and mayhem it was causing during the period of horror after it, and contrasted it to his British monarchy, which he likened to a mighty oak: it grew and changed slowly, but was solid, stable, and deeply rooted.
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My very first post in your thread was a refutation of your contention and it was specifically about personal responsibility, personal choice, limited and small government. Perhaps, in your desire to paint conservatives with your broad brush, you didn't even read my post? Even though you responded to it?

I'm thinking, perhaps, it is YOU who needs to stay focused...on your own thread.
 
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Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Mycroft said:
I'm thinking you don't remember what your own thread is about. Here's part of your own OP:



My very first post in your thread was a refutation of your contention and it was specifically about personal responsibility, personal choice, limited and small government. Perhaps, in your desire to paint conservatives with your broad brush, you didn't even read my post? Even though you responded to it?

I'm thinking, perhaps, it is YOU who needs to stay focused...on your own thread.
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I don't know, but the only people I see who are telling me the earth is only 6000 years old, and trickle down economics works, and that homosexuality is a choice, etc... are people who label themselves "conservatives".

This new tax plan this supposedly "conservative" congress is passing is based on the argument of trickle down economics. No serious economist on the planet thinks that is anything real anymore. You might as well be arguing for the existence of unicorns. But the argument being made by these "conservative" congressmen is not that they are doing this to keep everyone free, like you are saying. Their argument is that trickle down economics works and everyone is going to do better because of this. This is a factually incorrect statement. They are saying that if we make the rich even richer by cutting their taxes, everyone else will benefit too. No one who has ever even taken an introductory economics class takes that seriously.

That's like someone speeding down the highway to a sharp curve. The conservative congressmen are telling us that the faster we go, the safer the curve is going to be. And you are saying that anyone who wants to tell us there is a curve ahead just hates freedom. No. It's just a statement of fact. You can do with with the curve what you want. But you can't deny its existence. They can keep speeding if they want. You would still be free to take that curve as fast as you want. That's fine. But what would be weird for anyone to say is that there can't possibly be a curve in the road ahead because it would be tyrannical and limit our freedom.
 
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Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

akyron said:
The fact that you believe that is a problem to begin with and shows we are not equipped with the proper definitions.

You should just create a thread with those specific issues you wish to harp upon and see who jumps in rather than blanket generalize a group of people.
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These are not "issues". They are well established facts. It's interesting how many times those two keep getting confused.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Mycroft said:
Again, don't try to put words in my mouth. I didn't say I "don't" buy any of that stuff, either.

Anyway, what makes me think I'm any kind of conservative?

Quote Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post

Modern American conservatism has evolved away from Burke's definition to an ideology of personal responsibility, personal choice, limited and small government. The ever-increasing gains in knowledge and technology are not a problem.
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BTW, we are not free to make up our own private definitions of words either.

Here is formal definition of conservatism from the internet:

con·ser·va·tism

/kənˈsərvədizəm/
noun

noun: conservatism
1. commitment to traditional values and ideas with opposition to change or innovation.
"proponents of theological conservatism"

2. the holding of political views that favor free enterprise, private ownership, and socially conservative ideas.
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Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
I think 1650s may be closer to the mark: as in Puritans burning their witches at the stake, trial by ordeal, a return to "moral purity", and striking the fear of the Lord into every unbelieving heart.

Make America Great Again!
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For the religious right, maybe. I think the oligarch boys club just wants to go back to family based aristocracies (pseudo royalty) and the good old robber baron days.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
The ideology of conservatism is based on adherence to traditional values and trying to maintain the status quo.
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Well, that right there is a completely inaccurate statement. Conservatives seek to maintain the adherence to the Constitution and the basis for the Constitution, which is a government of the people for the people. That means that the government's primary job is to protect the people from foreign and domestic threats. Those threats include everything from murders to foreign invasion to over reaching government.

Edmund Burke, the 18th century Englishman and one of the founders of conservatism as an ideology, said that too much change in a society too fast creates instability and chaos. He pointed to the French Revolution and the chaos, instability, and mayhem it was causing during the period of horror after it, and contrasted it to his British monarchy, which he likened to a mighty oak: it grew and changed slowly, but was solid, stable, and deeply rooted.

But our values are often based on facts. As the pace of scientific understanding has become dizzyingly fast. These changes in our understanding have brought into question many values which have been "traditional" and so now considered conservative: trickle down economics has been definitively shown by economists to not work, homosexuality is no longer considered by mental health specialists as a choice nor as a disorder, evolutionary biology is very solid science now and creationism is not taken seriously in the scientific community, anthropogenic global warming is very solid science now, biological theories of race have been debunked, etc...
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"Trickle down" economics was never a thing. It was a slogan for smaller government. Smaller government does create freedom and in that it cannot be unsuccessful. But, in GDP, it was very successful. The US tax cuts of the 80s, the USSR/Russia decentralization and other examples serve to prove smaller government created jobs, growth and freedom.

And the pace of science continues to speed up. Our knowledge is increasing at a logarithmic pace, requiring constant reevaluation of the worldviews and values which are built up on them. It's dizzying. So when faced with such facts, conservatives seem to have found new ways to cope: calling into question the integrity of the entire global community of scientists, calling all credible media "fake news", succumbing to demagoguery which tells people what they want to hear, rather than what is ("global warming is just a Chinese hoax", etc...).
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What does falsification of news reports have to do with science? What CNN says about Donald Trump has nothing to do with science. Global warming, on the other hand, is a hypothesis that is widely disputed. Using it here as fact runs in direct opposition of your thesis.

So what is the solution for people who don't like change, in a world where a constant speeding up of knowledge demands constant change and limberness and flexibility in reevaluating one's worldview?
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You are seeking a solution for a problem that you have created but does not exist. *Light Bulb* Wow, I just realized how utterly liberal this post is. You defined a problem that doesn't exist, assumed that the problem is undeniable and now seek a way to force change. I mean, how similar could this be to health care, climate change, DACA, and so on. This is so funny. You really do think this way don't you? Wow. I'm just coming to a realization here. I thought you people just liked regulation and big government. It isn't just that, is it? You actually believe what you are saying and don't see the fallacy of your arguments, do you? Man. What a moment.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
I don't know, but the only people I see who are telling me the earth is only 6000 years old, and trickle down economics works, and that homosexuality is a choice, etc... are people who label themselves "conservatives".

~snipped the blather~
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LOL!!

So...based on that, you want to broad brush every conservative?

That's like saying that, since the only people I see telling me the Christians want to take over the country are liberals...every liberal thinks Christians want to take over the country. Do YOU think that? Or does it occur to you that some conservatives might think Christians want to take over the country or some liberal Christians might NOT want to take over the country?

I suggest you put your broad brush away. It's liable to make you look stupid.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
BTW, we are not free to make up our own private definitions of words either.

Here is formal definition of conservatism from the internet:
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That definition is too simplistic. Here's something better:

Modern American conservatism is not strictly defined, but reflects a set of attitudes in a political and social context. Attempting to define political belief into a spectrum of conservatism on the right and liberalism on the left of a straight line is doomed to failure. Minimally, political opinion can be defined in two dimensions: economic freedom vs. control, and individual liberty vs. control. Additional dimensions may be needed to consider international relations.

American conservatism - encyclopedia article - Citizendium
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But even this initial paragraph of the article isn't all there is. You should read the WHOLE article to get a better understanding of what you are talking about.

Here's another good resource: https://home.isi.org/pillars-modern-american-conservatism
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Conservatism is all about those in power, wanting to stay in power and prevent or obstruct any and all efforts to diminish or remove their power.
This is why the stereotype of white, powerful, wealthy males, is associated with conservatives.

This is seen culturally in that white males had most of the power in U.S. history, with literally no rights granted to anyone else. It's been steadily chipped away, they lost slaves, they lost control of their women, they lost control of their kids...basically the have to behave now, and they ****ing hate it. Culturally it's often religious and couched in "tradition". Business/power dominance is always referred to as "liberty". When in reality, it's simply a desire to stay in power/have power, at the expense of everyone else.

Similarly with business/powerful, the last thing they want, if they currently dominate, is "change". They want status quo, because if they are on top, and they can't use that wealth to create an army to conquest or defend their wealthy, the next best thing is to use government in more creative ways to ensure they stay on top.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

ataraxia said:
So then how do you explain the stubborn clinging to ideas long ago discredited: from trickle down economics to denial of global warming? You might as well base your opinions and values on a flat Earth worldview.
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those aren't conservative views.

People that have those views.. tend to identify with conservatives ( who believe in small efficient government and so on)... because conservatives tend to be less likely government intervention oriented.

I firmly believe that trickledown economics does not work. and I am a conservative.

Someone who believes in trickledown economics however.. is way more likely to support my candidacy.. .than a liberal who espouses that we need to tax the crap out of the rich and that magically is going to make those rich people pay more in salary.
 
Re: Conservatism: what to do when the facts on which "traditional values" are based become obsolete?

Mycroft said:
LOL!!

So...based on that, you want to broad brush every conservative?

That's like saying that, since the only people I see telling me the Christians want to take over the country are liberals...every liberal thinks Christians want to take over the country. Do YOU think that? Or does it occur to you that some conservatives might think Christians want to take over the country or some liberal Christians might NOT want to take over the country?

I suggest you put your broad brush away. It's liable to make you look stupid.
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Perhaps the reason that that only people telling you that Christians want to take over the country are liberals.. are because the actual Christians have ALREADY taken over the country. In fact.. Christianity has been the dominant and influential religion in our government since its inception.

There is a reason that you don't put your hand on the Wiccan bible when you are asked to testify in government court.

Or on every bill.. it doesn't say "In gods we trust"
 
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