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Thread: Trump Voters: Behold your success

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    The economy today is performing no better than it did under Obama. There is just more boasting.

    Every non-partisan analysis of the tax plan reports that the economic gains from the plan are miniscule.

    The bait of this plan is to have short-term tax reductions for the middle class. The switch is that those cuts turn into increases beyond what those taxpayers pay now. This is necessary according to the tax writers in order to keep the deficit below $1.5 trillion. Moreover, when those deficits materialize, these same people will use deficits as an excuse to slash Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security.

    As you said, this is not a hard story to tell.
    There are more Americans working right now than at any time in the last 15 years.

    The stock indexes, all of them, have posted more record closes since the election than in any 1 year period in 100 years.

    The unemployment rate is at historic lows, the American public's wealth has increased by about $5 Trillion since the election, the Dow Jones Industrial Index is increasing at about ten times the rate of the previous decade. You can put the illusion of the Obama miracle to bed. It never happened.

    Trump is not the Messiah. The major difference is just stopping the restraints that Obama applied.

    The games being played with the sun setting rates is to get around the ridiculous demand that the economic growth be pegged at less than 2%.

    Even before the tax rate cuts, we are well above that. With the tax cuts, we might be closer to 4% or 5% growth.

    1% growth will more than deliver the tax revenue shortfall.

    I personally think the major impacts will come from the reduced corporate rates and the return of the trillions from overseas.

    The personal rate cuts are just a goody for me.

    Our budgetary problems are the result rd spending going up, not revenues coming down. The debt has doubled every 8 years this century. As far as I know, Obama was not a big tax cutter, but the debt still went up.
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    There are more Americans working right now than at any time in the last 15 years.

    The stock indexes, all of them, have posted more record closes since the election than in any 1 year period in 100 years.

    The unemployment rate is at historic lows, the American public's wealth has increased by about $5 Trillion since the election, the Dow Jones Industrial Index is increasing at about ten times the rate of the previous decade. You can put the illusion of the Obama miracle to bed. It never happened.

    Trump is not the Messiah. The major difference is just stopping the restraints that Obama applied.

    The games being played with the sun setting rates is to get around the ridiculous demand that the economic growth be pegged at less than 2%.

    Even before the tax rate cuts, we are well above that. With the tax cuts, we might be closer to 4% or 5% growth.

    1% growth will more than deliver the tax revenue shortfall.

    I personally think the major impacts will come from the reduced corporate rates and the return of the trillions from overseas.

    The personal rate cuts are just a goody for me.

    Our budgetary problems are the result rd spending going up, not revenues coming down. The debt has doubled every 8 years this century. As far as I know, Obama was not a big tax cutter, but the debt still went up.
    The projection from the Joint Committee on Taxation says that economic growth will only be 0.8% over a decade. That's essentially nothing. Meanwhile, it will add $1 trillion to the debt, over and above what is already projected. The JCT (and everyone else) conclude that the growth will not pay for the debt added.

    The graphs below show clearly that Trump's economy is following the same trajectory as under Obama.



    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich123 View Post
    Actually, most the experts agree that it will lower taxes innitially and then incrementally raised them starting in 2019 on gross incomes at around 60k.
    It will hurt students, teachers, adoptive parents, chronically ill and people who suffer damages to their home from natural dissasters.
    Furthermore it will give a tax break to those who stand to inherit over $10,000,000.00 since inheritance under that amount was never taxable anyway.
    Trump will save billions over the next decade thanks to this. And the reason they passed this was to benefit the republicans Donor class. Not You.
    I quite realize that a five hundred page bill that is not even complete yet is hard to judge. But in general, the lower tax, to the extent it really is, on corporate income will certainly have an impact on investment. It is yet unknown, what that will be, but we may comfortably expect that to mean more efficient jobs and more of them.

    As for any increase in personal taxes in 2019, you should be rejoicing. It is just the kind of sales pitch that the Democrats need.

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    The fact is, there are way more than enough Republicans with Democrats at their side that could vote for the very things I mentioned if the Democrats wanted to. The Bannonites don't have enough power to stop them. But, Democrats are the resistance and no matter how much good we could do, Democrats would refuse to vote for absolutely anything that helped the rich. As long as Mr. Smith got a bigger tax break than average Joe Smith, Democrats would not be on board, even if they have to screw average Joe Smith in the process.
    Your "fact" is messed up. Bannon has thus far been successful in getting many far right republicans in office, including the PRESIDENT. The "Freedom Caucus" has a lot of power in the House of Representatives, it's not just Bannon, it's also the Tea Party, and in primaries, those trend towards more extreme politics, so they have more success there. It's not just the Democrats that are resisting, there's Rand Paul and his libertarian brand of Republicanism, there's the "Freedom Caucus" and there's the extreme right and there's the establishment, both republican and democratic that do their donors bidding. The moderates are truly outnumbered by all of those combined.

    the reality is, if you're an average person, your voice doesn't matter, only if you're an extremist threat or a millianaire/billionaire donor, or a "job creator" do you even get a say in anything in our government. What's sad is that I'm glad for the extremists, because without them, we'd just be a normal oligarchy or feudal system, at least the extremists are citizens getting their voices heard.

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I quite realize that a five hundred page bill that is not even complete yet is hard to judge. But in general, the lower tax, to the extent it really is, on corporate income will certainly have an impact on investment. It is yet unknown, what that will be, but we may comfortably expect that to mean more efficient jobs and more of them.

    As for any increase in personal taxes in 2019, you should be rejoicing. It is just the kind of sales pitch that the Democrats need.
    there is absolutely NO guarantee or much evidence to support that "the lower tax, to the extent it really is, on corporate income will certainly have an impact on investment." and even LESS of a guarantee that investment will create jobs, good paying or not. You may comfortably expect more efficient jobs and more of them, but you have no reason to be that delusional. Corporations only want to create more profit, more jobs means less profit, especially if they are good paying jobs. The wage gap between America and the rest of the world still exist, so giving corporations a tax break gives them more money to invest in overseas production and helps offset the cost of doing business overseas, where wages are still lower by far.

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by LostArtist View Post
    there is absolutely NO guarantee or much evidence to support that "the lower tax, to the extent it really is, on corporate income will certainly have an impact on investment." and even LESS of a guarantee that investment will create jobs, good paying or not. You may comfortably expect more efficient jobs and more of them, but you have no reason to be that delusional. Corporations only want to create more profit, more jobs means less profit, especially if they are good paying jobs. The wage gap between America and the rest of the world still exist, so giving corporations a tax break gives them more money to invest in overseas production and helps offset the cost of doing business overseas, where wages are still lower by far.
    I am not interested in exceptions to the rule right now, so we can assume that profits are not consumed but will either be invested or distributed to equity holders. If they don't invest themselves, the cash will go to shareholders. Those will tend to be either companies or social groups wth a higher propensity to invest than average. So cp increasing the after tax profits will cause investment.

    Nope. More jobs do not reduce less profits but more.

    A wage gap alone is not enough to determine, where the investment will go. That depends on a whole mix of factors. But considering the quantity of cash held in deposits outside the US. My surmise is that as it was not invested so far, it will come home.
    Last edited by joG; 12-07-17 at 02:05 PM.

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by LostArtist View Post
    Your "fact" is messed up. Bannon has thus far been successful in getting many far right republicans in office, including the PRESIDENT. The "Freedom Caucus" has a lot of power in the House of Representatives, it's not just Bannon, it's also the Tea Party, and in primaries, those trend towards more extreme politics, so they have more success there. It's not just the Democrats that are resisting, there's Rand Paul and his libertarian brand of Republicanism, there's the "Freedom Caucus" and there's the extreme right and there's the establishment, both republican and democratic that do their donors bidding. The moderates are truly outnumbered by all of those combined.

    the reality is, if you're an average person, your voice doesn't matter, only if you're an extremist threat or a millianaire/billionaire donor, or a "job creator" do you even get a say in anything in our government. What's sad is that I'm glad for the extremists, because without them, we'd just be a normal oligarchy or feudal system, at least the extremists are citizens getting their voices heard.
    You're ignoring the Democrats. If the nonBannonite Republicans and Democrats worked together, the Bannonites would have zero power. Democrats refuse. They are the resistance.

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by Conservative View Post
    Wow, more leftwing propaganda distorting reality. First of all there is NO Tax bill, there are two of them that have to be reconciled. What is it about you people that have a problem with others keeping more of what they earn? Did you liberal schools teach you that it was the government's money and when you allow someone else to keep more of it that is an expense and has to be paid for? When are you leftists going to get a clue and actually look at results not speculation, record employment, hundreds of thousands of part time employees under Obama now with full time jobs, reduction in the discouraged workers, 3% GDP growth, reduction in the deficit over what Obama spent in 4 months. Why don't you leftists Admit exactly who you are and why you want to destroy the US economy?
    First, you're correct that there are two competing tax bills, and no one really knows what the outcome will be, if any.

    Second, sure, letting people keep more of their hard earned money is a terrific idea. Let's do that, but...

    When is the "left" or the "right" going to admit that cutting taxes also requires cutting back spending? When will a party emerge that actually wants to cut back the size and power of the federal government? Right now, it's cut taxes, but spend, spend, spend, and expect the magic fairies to balance it all out. Now, the Republicans are saying that the deficit doesn't matter, as interest rates are low. It sure mattered when the Democrats were in control, but no more.

    There is no "conservative" party in Washington, just a big government party called Democrats and another called Republicans. Tweedledumocrats and Tweedledeeblicans is what they are.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
    The projection from the Joint Committee on Taxation says that economic growth will only be 0.8% over a decade. That's essentially nothing. Meanwhile, it will add $1 trillion to the debt, over and above what is already projected. The JCT (and everyone else) conclude that the growth will not pay for the debt added.

    The graphs below show clearly that Trump's economy is following the same trajectory as under Obama.



    Everything is exactly as it was and yet everyone feels better about their future. It's a mystery.

    Has the US economy EVER posted a 0.8% growth rate across any 10years since the end of the Depression? I mean EVER? C'mon, man!

    Whatever the source of the data you've posted might be, they are obviously a hit job and nothing more.

    Up until the election, the Obama era DOW posted 105 record closes in 8 years.

    In the roughly 1 year since the election, the DOW has posted 82 record closes. That's more than 6 times the rate under the Big 0. Had another one this week- not so unusual- we're averaging about 1 every week.

    The Dow has risen from about 18000 to about 24000 Since Trump won. That's about a 6000 point jump and still going.

    Obama was elected when the DOW was at about 8600 and it dropped another 1000+ points or so and then started to claw back to the 18,000 level. This was at the low point and an aberration from normal. There was a previous drop off in the "Great Recession" from about 14,000.

    Recovering to 14,000 should have been an automatic. Turned out, not so much...

    Under Obama, the DOW advanced about 10,000 in 8 years. Under Trump, so far, it's advanced about 6,000 in one year. Still advancing...

    THAT rate of advance is just under 5X comparing the "Trump Bump to the Obama Recovery.

    The ONLY difference so far is that Trump has loosened some of the Strangling Regulations imposed by Obama. More to come.

    When the new tax rates kick in, fasten your seat belts and make sure that your tray table and seat backs are in their fully upright and locked positions.
    I am not of the mind that a man is either of science or of religion. At his best and his worst, man exists in the misty glimmering where the falling angel meets the rising ape. That he chooses a direction from that point defines him as human.

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    Re: Trump Voters: Behold your success

    Quote Originally Posted by code1211 View Post
    Everything is exactly as it was and yet everyone feels better about their future. It's a mystery.

    Has the US economy EVER posted a 0.8% growth rate across any 10years since the end of the Depression? I mean EVER? C'mon, man!

    Whatever the source of the data you've posted might be, they are obviously a hit job and nothing more.

    Up until the election, the Obama era DOW posted 105 record closes in 8 years.

    In the roughly 1 year since the election, the DOW has posted 82 record closes. That's more than 6 times the rate under the Big 0. Had another one this week- not so unusual- we're averaging about 1 every week.

    The Dow has risen from about 18000 to about 24000 Since Trump won. That's about a 6000 point jump and still going.

    Obama was elected when the DOW was at about 8600 and it dropped another 1000+ points or so and then started to claw back to the 18,000 level. This was at the low point and an aberration from normal. There was a previous drop off in the "Great Recession" from about 14,000.

    Recovering to 14,000 should have been an automatic. Turned out, not so much...

    Under Obama, the DOW advanced about 10,000 in 8 years. Under Trump, so far, it's advanced about 6,000 in one year. Still advancing...

    THAT rate of advance is just under 5X comparing the "Trump Bump to the Obama Recovery.

    The ONLY difference so far is that Trump has loosened some of the Strangling Regulations imposed by Obama. More to come.

    When the new tax rates kick in, fasten your seat belts and make sure that your tray table and seat backs are in their fully upright and locked positions.
    The source is The Federal Reserve's Economic Research database (FRED).

    Under Obama, the economy hit or surpassed 3 percent growth during numerous quarters... I also do not know where you got your average 0.8% GDP growth over 10 years. Why 10 years and not Obama's 8 years? Ah, because that way you get to misleadingly include the huge drop from the Great Recession in those 10 years.

    Comparing the stock market as a measure is equally misleading and it doesn't account for the differences. What are these differences? When Obama was elected, the economy was in free-fall. So, of course the stock market was going to continue to drop. It wasn't until Obama fiscal policies took hold that we had a roaring of the stock market. The DOW has gained 250% under Obama.

    That's quite different from Trump, who was handed a growing mended economy. But I do understand Trump's mentality. Trump inherited great wealth from his father and thinks he's is a self-made man. Trump, a year in, still hasn't enacted any major policies. We are currently living under Obama's economy.

    The ONLY difference so far is that Trump has loosened some of the Strangling Regulations imposed by Obama. More to come.
    What are these "strangling regulations?" I had no idea that the Obama regulation that kept a pesticide that was known to harm children's brains out of the food supply and not allowing coal companies to dump harmful ash in streams, was such a drag on the economy. Or, that the Obama regulation that Trump undid that regulated silica in worker's air was job killing -- but it will kill workers.

    The Human Cost Of Trumpís Rollback On Regulations
    Attached Images Attached Images
    "I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it." --J.S. Mill

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