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Thread: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    Are you serious?

    Do you legitimately believe there are no issues facing the Democratic party? That every its every problem is wholly some baseless fabrication of Russian propaganda and not one has any basis in reality like Perez' purge? The de facto buyout of the party? The rigging/skewing (whatever word/semantics you want to use) of the primaries? The suppression and omission of the FDR/progressive wing from virtually all material positions of leadership despite it now comprising more than half the party? The fruitless insistence on pursuing unpopular New Dem policy/ideas over those polling at majoritarian levels? These are all real and factual issues, not inventions of Fox News or the Kremlin, whether or not you want to believe it, and they're facing the party in the present.

    Yes, the focus should be on defeating Republicans, but in order to do that best, we first need to get our house in order, and pretending that real problems which need to be resolved don't exist is absolutely not how we accomplish this. Moreover, if we do not, the party is going to be in serious trouble when Trump is gone, and there's no unthinkable bogey man around to conscript a rally and the independent vote out of fear.
    Using Hillary's defeat as a excuse to air every shred of dirty laundry in the DNC and institute a hostile takeover is not the answer to Trump. In fact it helps him greatly and will divide the party. This is not the time for civil war it is a time for unity. Working within the party to move it more left would have a much better outcome. Bernie succeeded in moving Hillary left didn't he?
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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by FieldTheorist View Post
    I don't know what the specific breakdown is for Democratic voters, but when, as of today, 50% of people dislike the DNC and only 38% like the DNC, Democrats should probably take stock of why their image is so bad and how that will impact their candidates' electability and their current funding crisis. I also didn't say carve up Hillary; I don't care about Hillary, the less I hear about her and what she's doing the better.

    But yes, I'm team hostile-takeover of the DNC, or at least a tactical takeover of it. You keep on acting like if this Democratic party --the one that's lost 1,200 state seats, represents only 33% of state legislatures, 30% of governorships, 43% of the House and 46% of the Senate, and lost the presidency 60% of time in the last 20 years-- is this glorious party whose only real threat to gaining total control over the US government are these pesky goddamn left-wing extremists who confoundingly have all of this energy and a leader who's the most popular sitting politician in America.

    Even if you were right and I really were a delusional conspiracy theorist, nothing I've said would come as close to the delusion that the current leadership and culture of the Democratic party is good, solid leadership in need of no critique. You keep on acting like everyone else is the problem, but who do you blame for 2004, 2010, 2014, and the lackluster congressional support in 2012?
    I blame the election of a black President that our nation was not ready to accept for all the Democratic losses. Obama's race was used mercilessly to frighten and confuse voters into staying home or voting GOP. That "white power" theme is also what elected Trump obviously. So in a way the DNC was made to look out of touch but should we turn the guillotines on ourselves now because our nation is culturally backward and full of bigoted morons? This is starting to look like the French revolution to me.
    Last edited by iguanaman; 11-14-17 at 02:41 PM.
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  3. #173
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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirt Sands View Post
    Do you pretend that Bernie is not responsible for his own campaign? He's not a Democrat. Screw him. If it's a revolution, the revolution would have taken place regardless of everything. He didn't have enough support, period. And it's his fault. If it were fair, would he have won? No. He won't win in 2020, no matter what the changes are. Let him hold his own primary and see how many votes he gets. He ran as a Democrat to gain votes or he would do his own thing. It didn't work out that way. Sorry

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    Bernie's responsible for his own campaign, yes, just as the DNC is responsible for running a fair and impartial primary per its own charter and rules. If it were fair, we can't possibly know the outcome given how much he depended on building momentum given he started at 3% to 60%, and the DNC's deliberate attempts to put a damper on it. Further, Bernie obviously didn't want to be a spoiler figure by running as a Dem, which is, besides it being the only viable avenue to the White House, a courtesy to the Democrats at least as much as it is self-serving. Meanwhile, what kind of precedent does it set for the Dem party to attack and ostracize its closest allies? Screw Bernie because he wishes to continue to identify as an independent, despite all the good he has done and continues to do for the party? Where are those same people who eagerly take credit for his actions by association when they eagerly claim he is a Dem? Ridiculous.

    That said, Bernie's performance in the primary is utterly irrelevant to the necessity of resolving these issues in the present; as many establishment Dems say, I don't care to re-litigate the past. This isn't about Bernie, it's about winning, and doing what is best for the Dem party in the short, and long term.

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Using Hillary's defeat as a excuse to air every shred of dirty laundry in the DNC and institute a hostile takeover is not the answer to Trump. In fact it helps him greatly and will divide the party. This is not the time for civil war it is a time for unity. Working within the party to move it more left would have a much better outcome. Bernie succeeded in moving Hillary left didn't he?
    The problem isn't merely just Hillary, and it's not solely about Hillary's defeat, much as that may have been a breaking point and call to action; as Fieldtheorist as stated, these unbearable losses have been ongoing for many years under the same incompetent, corrupt leadership and policy points. Taking decisive action to reform the party for the better isn't divisiveness, it's progress and we need to do it; we need to understand that the institution of the DNC and Democratic party are both deeply unpopular and rightly distrusted, and we must work to reform and improve such that the general electorate actually looks at us favourably. Trump may represent easy, even effortless wins in a lot of ridings for the short term, but we simply cannot rely on him to carry the day going forward, nor become complacent as Hillary as shown. Upholding the deeply unpopular status quo is an absolute guarantee of long term disaster, and a swing back to the GOP. The party is already divided, and staying the course ala Perez will only make things demonstrably worse; let me tell you, being at ground zero of the fallout, that this purge of his did not go down well at all; we need to take action now.
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    I blame the election black President that our nation was not ready to accept for all the Democratic losses. Obama's race was used mercilessly to frighten and confuse voters into staying home or voting GOP. That "white power" theme is also what elected Trump obviously.
    Racial resentment is a major issue in the Republican's rise to power (it has since 1965), but you really think that the massive swing of voters who voted for Obama and voted for Trump --a major piece of how Trump won, by the way-- were really just closeted racists? You don't think that Obama failing to continue working or engaging with his grassroots base had anything to do with it? Failing to join union workers when it was a campaign promise? Continuing to push trade deals throughout his presidency? Taking up huge debt on the DNC's side to run his campaign and then failing to help fund-raise for the DNC during off elections? You think that hiring a crony like DWS to mismanage the DNC was a wise plan, and then pulling away from firing her after her leadership was failing just because she called for having Obama be tarred as a misogynist and anti-semite if he removed her?

    And I guess it goes without saying, but you see no issue whatsoever with spending hundreds of millions of dollars on campaign consultants during the campaigning seasons that are not winning Democrats races in a time when their is minimal funding for the DNC, the state Democratic parties, and down ballot candidates? Or letting these same consultants be voting members of the Democratic party, so they can argue for giving themselves more money?

    In your mind then, none of that contributed to the fall of the Democratic party over the last 10-20 years?

    So in a way the DNC was made to look out of touch but should we turn the guillotines on ourselves now? This is starting to loo like the French revolution to me.
    You really think firing people that aren't performing within an organization is the equivalent of literally severing people's heads off? If this is what your argumentation has come down to, then you're basically making my case for me.
    "The question is whether privileged elites should dominate mass-communication and should use this power, as they tell us they must [to] manipulate and deceive the 'stupid majority', and remove them from the public arena. The question, in brief, is whether Democracy and Freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avoided." --Chomsky

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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by FieldTheorist View Post
    Racial resentment is a major issue in the Republican's rise to power (it has since 1965), but you really think that the massive swing of voters who voted for Obama and voted for Trump --a major piece of how Trump won, by the way-- were really just closeted racists? You don't think that Obama failing to continue working or engaging with his grassroots base had anything to do with it? Failing to join union workers when it was a campaign promise? Continuing to push trade deals throughout his presidency? Taking up huge debt on the DNC's side to run his campaign and then failing to help fund-raise for the DNC during off elections? You think that hiring a crony like DWS to mismanage the DNC was a wise plan, and then pulling away from firing her after her leadership was failing just because she called for having Obama be tarred as a misogynist and anti-semite if he removed her?

    And I guess it goes without saying, but you see no issue whatsoever with spending hundreds of millions of dollars on campaign consultants during the campaigning seasons that are not winning Democrats races in a time when their is minimal funding for the DNC, the state Democratic parties, and down ballot candidates? Or letting these same consultants be voting members of the Democratic party, so they can argue for giving themselves more money?

    In your mind then, none of that contributed to the fall of the Democratic party over the last 10-20 years?



    You really think firing people that aren't performing within an organization is the equivalent of literally severing people's heads off? If this is what your argumentation has come down to, then you're basically making my case for me.
    What makes you think that a hostile takeover will result in anything different except for the people in power? That is usually what happens if one side receives absolute power in a "revolution". No one is saying there isn't room for changes but it must come from within. Why is it that there is no effort to work that way?
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.
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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    What makes you think that a hostile takeover will result in anything different except for the people in power?
    At some point that question stops mattering after you prove that you lose 50-70% of the time.

    That is usually what happens if one side receives absolute power in a "revolution". No one is saying there isn't room for changes but it must come from within. Why is it that there is no effort to work that way?
    Do you follow anything that goes on inside of the DNC? There already has been a revolution, the corporate donors and consulting firms have taken over the Democratic party for 12 years, and the people who were loyal or supportive of my wing have been, in near unison, wiped out of the DNC and literally been replaced (almost exclusively) by Hillary campaign staffers. You keep on acting like my side is trying to sabotage the Democratic party and throwing people out on their asses for trying to work with Tom Perez. But the only people who've been purged from the Democratic party --for working with Tom Perez and trying to reform the party-- are the people in my wing and they've been purged by Perez. It's not like I just decided that the DNC needed to have a hostile takeover; I was more than willing to help Ellison get elected to the Chair position and work with the DNC, a majority of which were Hillary backers, and wait to see how the Unity Reform Commission is going. But then Tom Perez and his ilk keep on inserting themselves into DNC processes and making sure that everyone from my wing has zero representation and zero power. Unity is awfully hard when you are unwilling to accept that the people you're defending are the actual ones who are sowing disunity and trying to mitigate reform wherever possible.
    "The question is whether privileged elites should dominate mass-communication and should use this power, as they tell us they must [to] manipulate and deceive the 'stupid majority', and remove them from the public arena. The question, in brief, is whether Democracy and Freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avoided." --Chomsky

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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by FieldTheorist View Post
    At some point that question stops mattering after you prove that you lose 50-70% of the time.



    Do you follow anything that goes on inside of the DNC? There already has been a revolution, the corporate donors and consulting firms have taken over the Democratic party for 12 years, and the people who were loyal or supportive of my wing have been, in near unison, wiped out of the DNC and literally been replaced (almost exclusively) by Hillary campaign staffers. You keep on acting like my side is trying to sabotage the Democratic party and throwing people out on their asses for trying to work with Tom Perez. But the only people who've been purged from the Democratic party --for working with Tom Perez and trying to reform the party-- are the people in my wing and they've been purged by Perez. It's not like I just decided that the DNC needed to have a hostile takeover; I was more than willing to help Ellison get elected to the Chair position and work with the DNC, a majority of which were Hillary backers, and wait to see how the Unity Reform Commission is going. But then Tom Perez and his ilk keep on inserting themselves into DNC processes and making sure that everyone from my wing has zero representation and zero power. Unity is awfully hard when you are unwilling to accept that the people you're defending are the actual ones who are sowing disunity and trying to mitigate reform wherever possible.
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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by Unitedwestand13 View Post
    Victory in 2018 is the primary goal right now.
    Victory in 2018 is the goal. The issue is how we get there. Pretending like problems that exist don't exist is not the way to get 2018 to be different than 2016.
    "The question is whether privileged elites should dominate mass-communication and should use this power, as they tell us they must [to] manipulate and deceive the 'stupid majority', and remove them from the public arena. The question, in brief, is whether Democracy and Freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avoided." --Chomsky

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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by FieldTheorist View Post
    Victory in 2018 is the goal. The issue is how we get there. Pretending like problems that exist don't exist is not the way to get 2018 to be different than 2016.
    But I thought that we don’t want to refight the issues of the 2016 primary?
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    Re: The Sandernistas Clear Hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by FieldTheorist View Post
    Victory in 2018 is the goal. The issue is how we get there. Pretending like problems that exist don't exist is not the way to get 2018 to be different than 2016.
    Pretending that the Russian trolls were right and Hillary is a crook who hijacked the DNC is not the way to gain votes for Democrats in 2018. Quite the opposite. No one wants to see how the sausage is made, either gain acceptance from within or bite your tongue. Your problem is that the opposition has already taken your stance. We need to beat them not join them. Is that clear enough for you?
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