The party's over: Republicans and Democrats are both finished

nota bene · Sep 17, 2017

So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

code1211 · Sep 17, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

From his lips to God's ears.

cuban smokes · Sep 17, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

IMO the US has too many major issues for any political party to properly address & to over come.

Throw into that mix the fact that the US has created so much bad will with other nations that we now have more enemies than likely any nation on the planet.

Sure, the US could bomb the Hell outta any thing that moves but building our broken nation back in a positive direction is a path that is littered with terrible odds; odds not in our favor.

<alt>doxygen · Sep 17, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

Interesting take. I have to say I agree somewhat that what he's describing is the current reality, and maybe his prediction about the tend will come true.

However, our oligarchs, lobbies and well funded special interest groups will still own most of the field at the congressional level.

bearpoker · Sep 17, 2017

cuban smokes said:
IMO the US has too many major issues for any political party to properly address & to over come.

Throw into that mix the fact that the US has created so much bad will with other nations that we now have more enemies than likely any nation on the planet.

Sure, the US could bomb the Hell outta any thing that moves but building our broken nation back in a positive direction is a path that is littered with terrible odds; odds not in our favor.

Considering that we've started down this road with a president who doesn't appreciate the limits of hard power or the potential of soft power, I don't think this is a good thing.

joG · Sep 17, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

What has always impressed mit is the distance between the policy mixes of candidates of each party. It is actually much larger that between all but the parties in a county like Germany, where differences are more of nuance than substance. This with the structural dynamics of the Constitution seem to work together to make a two party system more sustainable than multiparty ones. So, I am relatively confident that two parties will continue to function.

jimbo · Sep 17, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

I think Novak may be correct, and Trump (and Cantor) may be the first shot fired. Trump is not a Repub or a Dem, and most Trumpsters did not consider him so.

The real question is whether or not there is enough support for alternative candidates to make a meaningful difference in '18 and '20?

Democrats face the same problem. The Democrat candidate wasn't exactly the most popular arrow in the quiver.

Mycroft · Sep 17, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

Yes, this is an interesting article that makes points that are not presented by the Mainstream Media. But this writer also misses...or declines to present...other important points.

For example:

It's why we have a Republican congressional leadership, headlined by a Senate Majority Leader with an 18 percent approval rating in his own home state, that could not deliver on its party's seven-year-long promises to repeal and replace Obamacare.It's why we have a Republican congressional leadership, headlined by a Senate Majority Leader with an 18 percent approval rating in his own home state, that could not deliver on its party's seven-year-long promises to repeal and replace Obamacare.

It's not that McConnell "could not deliver". McConnell didn't "want" to deliver. Neither did Ryan.

But even prior to that, the parties were becoming less discernible from each other, aside from a few wedge issues like abortion and gun control.

They pull donations from the same entities with just a few exceptions, and have similar track records when it comes to enduring challenges like controlling the debt, reining in health care costs, or improving the infrastructure, despite their rhetoric to the contrary. That corruption, or perceived corruption, played a big role in Donald Trump's successful "drain the swamp" campaign.

This is absolutely correct. That's why some people call it the "Uniparty" instead of Republicans and Democrats.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly.

Actually, it's not over yet. The Uniparty isn't done. The people give them money haven't given up or adjusted. The people who cover them...mainly the Mainstream Media...haven't given up or adjusted. They are ALL still fighting Trump tooth and nail to maintain the Uniparty control of the government.

But Trump is a formidable opponent.

nota bene · Sep 17, 2017

jimbo said:
I think Novak may be correct, and Trump (and Cantor) may be the first shot fired. Trump is not a Repub or a Dem, and most Trumpsters did not consider him so.

The real question is whether or not there is enough support for alternative candidates to make a meaningful difference in '18 and '20?

Democrats face the same problem. The Democrat candidate wasn't exactly the most popular arrow in the quiver.

My sense is that Novak thinks what's beginning to go on here will be too gradual to have much impact in 2018 beyond emboldening more outsider candidates. From the linked article:

For now, lost party influence will continue to enable Trump's generally hard-to-define policy leanings. He'll easily shift between the right and the left as it suits him with more freedom than perhaps any other president in 100 years. Republicans and Democrats will likely begin to decide on a case-by-case basis when to support the president, when to oppose him, and when to simply keep quiet. And that means the long-coveted positions like Speaker of the House and majority leader will become less important.

Looking to 2018 and the next presidential election, expect more outsider candidates to throw their hats into the ring without established party members being able to do much about it. Supporters of President Trump are likely to challenge incumbent Republicans in several primaries. And there are many who believe the Democrats might even get more serious about recruiting outsiders and celebrities for the 2020 race against President Trump. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

Jack Hays · Sep 19, 2017

It began long ago.

The Day That Destroyed the Working Class
Salena Zito, New York Post

. . . From then on, this date in 1977 would be known as Black Monday in the Steel Valley, which stretches from Mahoning and Trumbull counties in Ohio eastward toward Pittsburgh. It is the date when Youngstown Sheet and Tube abruptly furloughed 5,000 workers in one day.The bleeding never stopped.
Within the next 18 months, US Steel announced that the nation’s largest steel producer was also shutting down 16 plants across the nation, including their Ohio Works in Youngstown, a move that eliminated an additional 4,000 workers here. That announcement came one day before Jones and Laughlin Steel Corp. said they were cutting thousands of jobs at their facilities in the Mahoning Valley, too.
Within a decade, 40,000 jobs were gone. Within that same decade, 50,000 people had left the region, and by the next decade, that number was up to 100,000. Today the 22 miles of booming steel mills and the support industries that once lined the Mahoning River have mostly disappeared — either blown up, dismantled or reclaimed by nature.
If a bomb had hit this region, the scar would be no less severe on its landscape.
“The domino effect of Black Monday went on forever,” said Gary Steinbeck of nearby Warren, Ohio. Steinbeck was working up the river that day from the rolling plant at H.K. Porter, which also later went out of business. “The word spread quickly. Back then there weren’t any cellphones or social media. Good news travels fast, bad news travels at the speed of light. We knew within the hour the guys down the river were hurting, we knew within a day families were hurting, we knew within a week the whole region was suffering,” he said. . . .

reinoe · Sep 19, 2017

The GOP is willing to accept outsiders but the Dems will stop at nothing to maintain power and it means nothing to them to have disruptive people disappear.

Exquisitor · Sep 19, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

It was Adams that started making Parties and Jefferson's Party split into the two we have today.

Exquisitor · Sep 19, 2017

reinoe said:
The GOP is willing to accept outsiders but the Dems will stop at nothing to maintain power and it means nothing to them to have disruptive people disappear.

The Reprobates are the ones who stopped at nothing to stop Obama's liberal agenda.

Moderate Right · Sep 20, 2017

jimbo said:
I think Novak may be correct, and Trump (and Cantor) may be the first shot fired. Trump is not a Repub or a Dem, and most Trumpsters did not consider him so.

The real question is whether or not there is enough support for alternative candidates to make a meaningful difference in '18 and '20?

Democrats face the same problem. The Democrat candidate wasn't exactly the most popular arrow in the quiver.

I'm all in for a Kasich/Hickenlooper independent ticket.

Moderate Right · Sep 20, 2017

reinoe said:
The GOP is willing to accept outsiders but the Dems will stop at nothing to maintain power and it means nothing to them to have disruptive people disappear.

And the superdelegate system helps them with this.

Moderate Right · Sep 20, 2017

Exquisitor said:
The Reprobates are the ones who stopped at nothing to stop Obama's liberal agenda.

What does that have to do with the post you quoted? Why would you call yourself an independent and then defend Obama and call the Republican party names? Doesn't sound independent to me.

jimbo · Sep 20, 2017

Moderate Right said:
I'm all in for a Kasich/Hickenlooper independent ticket.

A strange combination. Possibly one of the very few that would make me vote Democrat.

chuckiechan · Sep 20, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

I shall repeat myself: "Trump is the third party". The middle class is the country. Not the flutter lips screaming on cable TV.

You have to be objective to see it. Trump may not head the "third party", but his influence will eventually create one out of the left of center and right of center of both parties.

chuckiechan · Sep 20, 2017

bearpoker said:
Considering that we've started down this road with a president who doesn't appreciate the limits of hard power or the potential of soft power, I don't think this is a good thing.

You do understand that the threats to our existence have been downplayed by the media in deference to Obama, yet overplayed by the media in response to Trumps truthful regard to the threat our enemies pose to us.

That is enough to create a third party right there - the "I'm sick of being treated like a child" party.

chuckiechan · Sep 20, 2017

nota bene said:
So says CNBC senior columnist Jake Novak, who predicts more and more outsider candidates as both GOP and Dem power slips away and claims that an old order in place for generations that kept a lid on chaos has crumbled:

These are uncharted waters for sure, but they may not lead to such bad results. After all, the partisan political structure in place for so long has brought us numerous wars, $20 trillion in debt and a government that's grown well beyond its usefulness.

Love or hate it, it's time to face this new reality: The Democratic and the Republican parties as we know them are finished and the politicians, the people who give them money, and the people who cover them need to adjust accordingly. https://www.cnbc.com/2017/09/14/trumps-new-reality-republicans-and-democrats-are-both-finished.html

I wonder if he's right and George Washington's ghost is smiling because it was he who warned against political parties and "urged the nation to choose leaders for reasons that transcended partisan politics." Novak says that while Washington's cabinet members Jefferson and Hamilton didn't listen, "it's happening now."

Not to mention that it's not that the republicans are so strong, it's that identity politics has poisoned the democrat party. Now, they need thirty different messages and thirty different paths for one idea.

bearpoker · Sep 20, 2017

chuckiechan said:
You do understand that the threats to our existence have been downplayed by the media in deference to Obama, yet overplayed by the media in response to Trumps truthful regard to the threat our enemies pose to us.

That is enough to create a third party right there - the "I'm sick of being treated like a child" party.

It always amuses me when people blame the media for what Trump says. He's the one making the dire pronouncements.

chuckiechan · Sep 20, 2017

bearpoker said:
It always amuses me when people blame the media for what Trump says. He's the one making the dire pronouncements.

If you think these nuclear threats are just silly games people play, you aren't paying attention.

Exquisitor · Sep 21, 2017

Moderate Right said:
What does that have to do with the post you quoted? Why would you call yourself an independent and then defend Obama and call the Republican party names? Doesn't sound independent to me.

It pertains directly to the post I quoted.

I am not very independent anymore since Bush left us with an economic crisis after being handed a booming surplus and then how the Reprobates stalled any recovery. Their economic ideology is as off as the Earth is old being based on suppositions that are often false.

I like to call the Reprobates; Reprobates who lick the can and the other Demoncraps.

I'll work with anyone I can find common ground with or who will listen to me.

The party's over: Republicans and Democrats are both finished

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