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Confederate Symbolism; Time to Stop Nursing Grievances and Relitigating Past

Unitedwestand13 said:
Here is a question for a southern resident: why does Virginia have numerous statues of Robert e Lee, but none of another native born Virginian who was a general during the civil war, George Henry Thomas?
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Good question. There are two main reasons: Lee was in command of the Army of Northern Virginia at the end of the war, and 2) Lee was a Confederate leader, that following the war and for over a century to come, was respected by Northerners and Southerners, Republicans and Democrats for a number of reasons based on his character, actions, and public statements and writings. It was a Democrat President, House, and Senate that put a statue of Lee in Statuary Hall on Capital Hill in the 1960's.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Good question. There are two main reasons: Lee was in command of the Army of Northern Virginia at the end of the war, and 2) Lee was a Confederate leader, that following the war and for over a century to come, was respected by Northerners and Southerners, Republicans and Democrats for a number of reasons based on his character, actions, and public statements and writings. It was a Democrat President, House, and Senate that put a statue of Lee in Statuary Hall on Capital Hill in the 1960's.
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And what about General Thomas? The rock of chuckmauga was arguably amongst the top union generals, right behind generals Sherman and grant.

That's why I don't think there are any Virginia state statues dedicated to general Thomas: unlike Lee, Thomas remained loyal to the union and fought againist his home state. Heck his own sister disowned him for that.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
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That's why I don't think there are any Virginia state statues dedicated to general Thomas: unlike Lee, Thomas remained loyal to the union and fought againist his home state. Heck his own sister disowned him for that.
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That's it right there. Lee, although reluctantly, resigned his commission in the US Army to defend his state. It was a completely different time back then. People across the country considered themselves citizens of their state or territory first, and members of the Union (later the Union or Confederacy) second. Just look at the names of the military units of both the North and South. With few exceptions, and although they also had a number assigned, the Regiments were formed by, manned by, and named after, the states where they originated, and the Companies were named after cities or counties.
 
Beaudreaux said:
That's it right there. Lee, although reluctantly, resigned his commission in the US Army to defend his state. It was a completely different time back then. People across the country considered themselves citizens of their state or territory first, and members of the Union (later the Union or Confederacy) second. Just look at the names of the military units of both the North and South. With few exceptions, and although they also had a number assigned, the Regiments were formed by, manned by, and named after, the states where they originated, and the Companies were named after cities or counties.
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Oddly enough Thomas does have a statue of him in Washington, D.C. And that statue was commissioned in 1870.
 
Unitedwestand13 said:
Oddly enough Thomas does have a statue of him in Washington, D.C. And that statue was commissioned in 1870.
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Washington, DC is not part of Virginia and was never part of the Confederacy (although it was almost captured), so I can see him having a statue in DC, especially 5 years after the end of the war, because of his war record for the Union during the Civil War.
 
rocket88 said:
If in the course of upgrading the subway, why would it be such a bad thing if they weren't saved.
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Because the parts of the subway needing upgrades are in the tunnels, i.e. the signal system and the cars themselves.
rocket88 said:
If it's a coincedence, why would losing them be a bad thing? Companies update their logos and images all the time.
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In this case it has historical significance as a marker of the center of Manhattan Island.
 
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JBG said:
Because the parts of the subway needing upgrades are in the tunnels, i.e. the signal system and the cars themselve.In this case it has historical significance as a marker of the center of Manhattan Island.
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So they can come up with a new one. Rebranding
 
Beaudreaux said:
And, so goes the dogma against them. No one here today was an adult that had anything to do with their placement back then. The folks that are here in the South now, the greatest majority of us anyway, do not see them as a monument to white supremacy. We see them for what they actually are, a monument to our fallen ancestors, and a reminder of what can happen when one group of people think they have the right to force other groups of people to bow to their will - like forcibly removing monuments and statues that symbolize a part of our history that many (62% of adult US citizens polled) feel should be left alone. Poll: While Democrats Demand Confederate Statues Be Removed, Majority of Americans Don't Want Them Torn Down | Town Hall

See the irony? Forcing people to be subjugated just doesn't work, whether it's slavery, Jim Crow type laws, or punitive actions feigned in the name of "social justice."
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Considering that the thread is about not "nursing grievances and relitigating the past"...isn't that what the monuments are really about?
 
rocket88 said:
Considering that the thread is about not "nursing grievances and relitigating the past"...isn't that what the monuments are really about?
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I am a history buff and love history. I hate trying to rewrite it.
 
JBG said:
I am a history buff and love history. I hate trying to rewrite it.
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History is always being rewritten. It's part of what makes it interesting.
 
rocket88 said:
Considering that the thread is about not "nursing grievances and relitigating the past"...isn't that what the monuments are really about?
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Given that the monuments were put into place before this thread existed, I seriously doubt that the topic of this thread has anything to with what the monuments are really about.

But, I could be wrong on that. I've been wrong before.
 
Beaudreaux said:
Given that the monuments were put into place before this thread existed, I seriously doubt that the topic of this thread has anything to with what the monuments are really about.

But, I could be wrong on that. I've been wrong before.
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They have plenty to do with it. They are there to "relitigate" something that had happened in the recent past, a small continuation of the Civil War. They were there to nurse the grievances of that war.
 
JBG said:
I don't think that historical symbols such as tiling or Robert E. Lee statues are holding back minorities from producing and earning on their merits.
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They may not specifically be holding minorities back, but they are a painful reminder of a past that White America should be ashamed of not having fond memories of. Removing these stupid symbols and making it absolutely clear to the African American community that we're embarrassed by the disgusting actions of our ancestors and we're committed to making sure nothing like that happens again is the least we could do.

Go take a walk around Berlin and tell me how many statues honoring Hitler you see. Tell me how many official trial signs you see that look an awful lot like a swastika. In Germany, it's flat-out illegal to deny that the Holocaust happened, but here in America there a Fox News Pundits who claim on national television that the Civil War was about states rights and act like Lincoln was the bad guy.

Acknowledging a mistake is the first and most important step in the process of making sure that you never make that mistake again. Symbols like these demonstrate that there are still a lot of people in this country either won't acknowledge the mistake at all or still seriously don't understand how big of a **** up it was.
 
I suppose it people were genuinely becoming offended I could see the need, but I don't think that's the issue here.

As others have pointed out, the similarities are vague, and New York wasn't part of the confederacy, so it's a big stretch to get there.

It's not unlike blaming Native Americans for Nazis, because both made use of the swastika.
 
MrWonka said:
They may not specifically be holding minorities back, but they are a painful reminder of a past that White America should be ashamed of not having fond memories of. Removing these stupid symbols and making it absolutely clear to the African American community that we're embarrassed by the disgusting actions of our ancestors and we're committed to making sure nothing like that happens again is the least we could do.

Go take a walk around Berlin and tell me how many statues honoring Hitler you see. Tell me how many official trial signs you see that look an awful lot like a swastika. In Germany, it's flat-out illegal to deny that the Holocaust happened, but here in America there a Fox News Pundits who claim on national television that the Civil War was about states rights and act like Lincoln was the bad guy.

Acknowledging a mistake is the first and most important step in the process of making sure that you never make that mistake again. Symbols like these demonstrate that there are still a lot of people in this country either won't acknowledge the mistake at all or still seriously don't understand how big of a **** up it was.
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Statues of Bismarck maybe? Or of Wagner?
 
I am all for Confederate statues as long as they state LOSER in 5 feet letters on the plaque on the statue.
 
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