Wage stagnation: the real economic issue.

Trump loved to criticize the new job numbers under Obama by calling them "bad jobs" because they were primarily low wage, service sector positions. The new numbers under Trump are not much different. Wages continue to stagnate and he cannot fulfill any real economic promise to his middle class supporters without real solutions to this problem.

CriticalThought said:

Trump loved to criticize the new job numbers under Obama by calling them "bad jobs" because they were primarily low wage, service sector positions. The new numbers under Trump are not much different. Wages continue to stagnate and he cannot fulfill any real economic promise to his middle class supporters without real solutions to this problem.

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We have been working on that problem for over 40 years, and yet the geniuses still dont understand the problem....dont make the mistake of holding your breath for a solution.

Nor waiting for the so-called journalists to be honest about it....there is an impeachment to get done.

Hawkeye10 said:

We have been working on that problem for over 40 years, and yet the geniuses still dont understand the problem....dont make the mistake of holding your breath for a solution.

Nor waiting for the so-called journalists to be honest about it....there is an impeachment to get done.

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You're right, the so called journalists on the right don't even think wage stagnation is a problem, so there won't be any honesty about it.

rocket88 said:

You're right, the so called journalists on the right don't even think wage stagnation is a problem, so there won't be any honesty about it.

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So far as I know less than 10% of the so-called journalists admit to be righties, so journalism getting this wrong generally cant be blamed on Right Thinking.

I dont know if this is true or not but about two years ago I was reading an account that had it that even in the 70's there was mass awareness amongst the geniuses that wages had stagnated...that the big push to get women working and thus turn one wage earning families into two wage earning families was in part an attempt to paper over the problem so that we the little people did not notice the problem,

Wage stagnation is caused by lack of wage competition. Why should I pay an engineer $80K a year, when I can get an H2b visa employee for $50K? Architects routinely send plan revisions to India at 5 o' clock and have them in their in box when they return to work in the morning.

Also, retail is under great pressure from Amazon, so the cash flow is not there for raises. Then there is more automation. Why should I tell Miss Muffet at Mc Donalds what keys to push when I order a Big Mac Meal Deal. They can turn the machine around and I can do it myself, and she can be laid off and the store saves $15.00 and hour making me push my Big Mac Meal Deal button.

And if you have line around the block for a job opening, don't expect competition for wages when workers are begging for work. It should be the other way around.

That is called productivity.

Hawkeye10 said:

We have been working on that problem for over 40 years, and yet the geniuses still dont understand the problem....dont make the mistake of holding your breath for a solution.

Nor waiting for the so-called journalists to be honest about it....there is an impeachment to get done.

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Working on creating that problem.

The last forty years have been redistribution upwards.

Nothing more

The profits were made. GDP went up. The rich got richer by the percentage everybody else's wages didn't. The money didn't vaporize. They just figured out how to save money on labor by a variety of methods.

What if...? said:

Working on creating that problem.

The last forty years have been redistribution upwards.

Nothing more

The profits were made. GDP went up. The rich got richer by the percentage everybody else's wages didn't. The money didn't vaporize. They just figured out how to save money on labor by a variety of methods.

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There is more...there is much more. We know that the elite exported a lot of jobs to further their Globalist agenda....our jobs were incentives for others around the world to get with their program.... there was also a failure to maintain infrastructure, repeated bubble making and bubble popping which just hammers a society in the attempt to artificially juice the GDP, a continued erosion in the quality of government, the continued erosion in the quality of education to include the University (at cost increases vastly outrunning inflation no less because when we fail we tend to fail grandly)...and so on and so forth.

CriticalThought said:

Trump loved to criticize the new job numbers under Obama by calling them "bad jobs" because they were primarily low wage, service sector positions. The new numbers under Trump are not much different. Wages continue to stagnate and he cannot fulfill any real economic promise to his middle class supporters without real solutions to this problem.

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* real wages in the US peaked in 1979 (same year I graduated high school)
* at that time it was basically unheard of to have 'temporary' or 'contract' employment scenarios
* now, temporary & contract labor are the norm; no need to have company benefits, paid vacation time, paid holidays, nothing ......... you show up, you work, you get paid, that's it
* a paycheck for hours worked used to be the avenue by which most Americans received 'income'
* now, most Americans make their 'income' from investments, or from government programs, i.e. welfare, unemployment, subsidies, etc.
* hourly wages have not kept pace with inflation, particularly medical related costs which have out paced most forms of inflation by 2.5 to 3 fold
* the 'American Dream' for most Americans has over the past 3 to 4 decades become the 'American Nightmare'

Anyone that believes this is going to change, for the better, is at best nuts ...............

Hawkeye10 said:

There is more...there is much more.

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There is, but it's mostly related to what What If mentioned.

We know that the elite exported a lot of jobs to further their Globalist agenda....our jobs were incentives for others around the world to get with their program....

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Outsourcing jobs, and the way it drives the labor rates down. Yes indeed. What consensus of economists think we can do something about that?
The reality seems to be that if the U.S. does not capitalize on that, our competitors in the global markets will, and the U.S. will lose. This is solved by letting corporations pursue this to compete, but then you tax the winners heavily and reinvest in the U.S. infrastructure, education, and wages.

Some think this "penalizes" the winners. But as you seem to indicate you understand, everyone wins...including the extermely wealthy, powerful business owners who are still making the highest profits in the entire world. People that think they are hurt in any significant way by boosting their entire nation's spending power and education, etc., is absurd IMO.

there was also a failure to maintain infrastructure,

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Yes, solved if we tax and re-invest in infrastructure that helps everyone, including those that were taxed.

repeated bubble making and bubble popping in the attempt to artificially juice the GDP,

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I think cycles are part of markets and are unavoidable, it's management of those cycles to prevent the worst of the highs/lows that we strive for.

a continued erosion in the quality of government, the continued erosion in the quality of education to include the University (at cost increases vastly outrunning inflation no lessm because when we fail we tend to

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All improved by the same tax and reinvestment in education/infrastructure/wages. Right on.

I think most of what you wrote is in the right direction, I just think it's democrats that push that agenda, not Republicans.
Republicans push one of two agendas - status quo, up to further reducing taxes on the wealthy, cutting government spending in any of health care, education, infrastructure.

Look at the unions for instance, They back democrats for government offices and openly push for immigrants rights and push for more immigrants to come to this country. This makes me pause and think, unions used to hate immigrants cause the more labor there is the less power the union has and the more power the company has. It allows the companies to not give increases in wages cause they have a lot more people that are willing to take your place if you oppose. Unions used to protect against this type of actions and would push for greater wages. Example (Chavez and his farmer union he helped build posting men near the mexican border and beating illegal immigrants up that tried to make there way from Mexico into CA). Looks like the unions have been bought up by the companies. And neither republican nor democrates care about the american citizen and there struggle to work for a wage that can sustain an easy life.

Mach said:

There is, but it's mostly related to what What If mentioned.

Outsourcing jobs, and the way it drives the labor rates down. Yes indeed. What consensus of economists think we can do something about that?
The reality seems to be that if the U.S. does not capitalize on that, our competitors in the global markets will, and the U.S. will lose. This is solved by letting corporations pursue this to compete, but then you tax the winners heavily and reinvest in the U.S. infrastructure, education, and wages.

Some think this "penalizes" the winners. But as you seem to indicate you understand, everyone wins...including the extermely wealthy, powerful business owners who are still making the highest profits in the entire world. People that think they are hurt in any significant way by boosting their entire nation's spending power and education, etc., is absurd IMO.


Yes, solved if we tax and re-invest in infrastructure that helps everyone, including those that were taxed.


I think cycles are part of markets and are unavoidable, it's management of those cycles to prevent the worst of the highs/lows that we strive for.


All improved by the same tax and reinvestment in education/infrastructure/wages. Right on.

I think most of what you wrote is in the right direction, I just think it's democrats that push that agenda, not Republicans.
Republicans push one of two agendas - status quo, up to further reducing taxes on the wealthy, cutting government spending in any of health care, education, infrastructure.

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Everyone has not won everyone has lost as America has broken down and unlike you I condemn all who done it, both branches of the Elite Class, and unlike you I barely care what these lying scumbag ********ers say, I pay attention to what they do.

Hawkeye10 said:

Everyone has not won everyone has lost as America has broken down and unlike you I condemn all who done it, both branches of the Elite Class, and unlike you I barely care what these lying scumbag ********ers say, I pay attention to what they do.

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As usual I have no idea how your response relates to by post. Who claimed everyone has "won"?
If you just want to rant about ********ers and you blame everyone, and have no actual justification...why bother feigning debate on a debate forum?

Mach said:

As usual I have no idea how your response relates to by post.

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Alrighty then....others will get it.

Those who understand what it means when I say that I am an Eastern Trained Socialist will tend to do better than others.

Hawkeye10 said:

Alrighty then....others will get it.

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Fragile when challenged, the sign of a well supported belief. Sky is stll falling isn't it? Everyone is what did you write... a lying scumbag ********er? Preach the end of time some more, it's so dreamy.

One day maybe you'll respond with a reasonable debate rebuttal. I don't have faith it will happen, but I do hope it may occur one day.

Mach said:

Fragile when challenged, the sign of a well supported belief. Sky is stll falling isn't it? Everyone is what did you write... a lying scumbag ********er? Preach the end of time some more, it's so dreamy.

One day maybe you'll respond with a reasonable debate rebuttal. I don't have faith it will happen, but I do hope it may occur one day.

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Since you seem to need someone who thinks like you and talks like you perhaps you best move along, I am not your guy.

If you decide that you can take some brain expanding look me up, I can surely help you there.

Hawkeye10 said:

Since you seem to need someone who thinks like you and talks like you perhaps you best move along, I am not your guy.If you decide that you can take some brain expanding look me up, I can surely help you there.

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No, just debate. On a debate forum. Crazy right? Or did you mean I expect to discuss things with reasonable people? I'm pretty reasonable. Are you suggesting you aren't? I know you're not willing to debate your position, I just occasionally test that in case you one day decide to debate it.

CriticalThought said:

Trump loved to criticize the new job numbers under Obama by calling them "bad jobs" because they were primarily low wage, service sector positions. The new numbers under Trump are not much different. Wages continue to stagnate and he cannot fulfill any real economic promise to his middle class supporters without real solutions to this problem.

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And what would those 'solutions' look like?

CriticalThought said:

Trump loved to criticize the new job numbers under Obama by calling them "bad jobs" because they were primarily low wage, service sector positions. The new numbers under Trump are not much different. Wages continue to stagnate and he cannot fulfill any real economic promise to his middle class supporters without real solutions to this problem.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if anyone really thought Trump with his complete and total lack of any detailed plan whatsoever, was going to improve much of anything. Let alone something as large and as complex as the entire U.S. economy.

But as ridiculous as he is, he has done two positive things in this regard.
- Trump use to support taxes on the wealthy to help the middle class/low income
- Trump through his historically absurd fumbling of the office of the president, has helped make it even harder for the do-nothing Republicans in congress to get much done. They DO want to cut taxes for the wealthy to worsen wage stagnation. They wanted specifically to reduce government spending on low/middle class and the sick via the healthcare reform cuts, to then justify their tax cuts for the wealthy. That's not a partisan knock, that's what they tried. And if Trump's bungling helped derail that...well he accidentally did some good.

Credit where credit is due I suppose.

Mach said:

No, just debate. On a debate forum. Crazy right? Or did you mean I expect to discuss things with reasonable people? I'm pretty reasonable. Are you suggesting you aren't? I know you're not willing to debate your position, I just occasionally test that in case you one day decide to debate it.

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That would have found you asking questions when you figured out that you could not follow me ....but you did not....so....

Here are two low hanging fruit describing wage stagnation:

Wage Stagnation in Nine Charts | Economic Policy Institute

This one is interesting in that it's from a liberal think-tank, and suggests wage stagnation is not
http://www.urban.org/sites/default/.../2000331-Beyond-the-Wage-Stagnation-Story.pdf

Contrary to the conventional wisdom that wages have stagnated, this approach finds that real median earnings of all workers in the economy grew by 38 percent from 1979 to 2013. Although this 1.1 percent growth per year is only slightly less than half what it could have been if productivity growth had been equally shared across all workers, it is not stagnation. Not surprisingly, this growth rate is almost identical to the growth of real median income as reported by CBO (2014).

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They basically argue that standards of living have grown faster than wages, and wages have grown 1.1% (low but not stagnant), combining the two is not so tragic as some would make it seem.

Of course, Trump hasn't done much of anything other than run his mouth, and reluctantly sign what he claimed was an unconstitutional bill, that put sanctions on his beloved Mother Russia.
He DID try to cut health insurance for a lot of low/middle income folks, but even that stab at the little-guy was so far, a failure.

If he stays in office, he's got another 3+ years to do something. But let's be honest, based on his track record so far, I don't think most people still entertain that as likely or even possible.

Wage stagnation is a huge and growing problem without an easy solution. Unions and unionist policies although the most popular solution is worse as it pushes unemployment, workforce non-participation or under-employment. Even saving low skills or phase out type employment to outsourcing although offering nothing in terms of sustainable benefits or job security at least keep investment more domestic, guards against unemployment/under employment cycles and provides people a sense of self control. Although does little to dig out the roots of the suffering.

The real heart of the problem imho is low interest rates / easy financing. If business had the natural incentives to invest and expand with equity over credit they'd no doubt lower their expansion which could hurt (in some ways) but there would be a lot more to be gained from viewing employee as a key stakeholders and a lot more smaller firms which means more jobs per industry without losing competitiveness.

As is, enterprises basically can finance any investment/growth with bargain bank rate leaving little sense in investing in employee stakeholders as corporations are basically just a finance product for a limited amount of high stake equity firms looking for their 5-17% growth (themselves debt financed at 2%) in a big house of cards...in est, we have massive expansion with few benefited as business are overcapitalized to where in many industries it now it's cheaper to buy a smaller competitor than have to adapt to compete leaving big dinosaurs eaten up globally. We basically just have fiat economy with limits market space, reduced job, lower income, who taxes small over large, new over old etc etc

Government needs to lower tax barriers without losing stability. Let the bubble out by phasing in a much more natural growth curve with higher interest and after some adjustment pains we can see unemployment and prices fall well wages rise again.

Alas D or R we'll see combating unemployment ignoring wage stagnation or worse (encouraging both) and the bomb gets bigger as it is passed to the next generation :roll: all so them retires can get their pensions, free healthcare, savings returns and house values -- oh how short sighted.

CriticalThought said:

Trump loved to criticize the new job numbers under Obama by calling them "bad jobs" because they were primarily low wage, service sector positions. The new numbers under Trump are not much different. Wages continue to stagnate and he cannot fulfill any real economic promise to his middle class supporters without real solutions to this problem.

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Actually, wages are rising...albeit slowly.

U.S. employers hired more workers than expected in July and raised their wages, signs of labor market tightness that likely clears the way for the Federal Reserve to announce a plan to start shrinking its massive bond portfolio.

The Labor Department said on Friday that nonfarm payrolls increased by 209,000 jobs last month amid broad-based gains. June's employment gain was revised up to 231,000 from the previously reported 222,000.

Average hourly earnings increased nine cents, or 0.3 percent, in July after rising 0.2 percent in June. That was the biggest rise in five months. On a year-on-year basis, wages increased 2.5 percent for the fourth straight month.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-economy-idUSKBN1AK09W

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One thing to keep in mind is Trump's desire to increase US manufacturing. This increase is slow in coming because of the opposition from the GOP Congress to pass needed legislation and, even if they did, there would be a certain amount of lag while businesses get their infrastructure up to speed.

What we need...and we need it quickly...is for the GOP Congress to quit their opposition to Trump and start working for the American people...but it's looking like they care more about hurting Trump than helping their voters.

So it goes...

Mach said:

I'm not sure if anyone really thought Trump with his complete and total lack of any detailed plan whatsoever, was going to improve much of anything. Let alone something as large and as complex as the entire U.S. economy.

But as ridiculous as he is, he has done two positive things in this regard.
- Trump use to support taxes on the wealthy to help the middle class/low income
- Trump through his historically absurd fumbling of the office of the president, has helped make it even harder for the do-nothing Republicans in congress to get much done. They DO want to cut taxes for the wealthy to worsen wage stagnation. They wanted specifically to reduce government spending on low/middle class and the sick via the healthcare reform cuts, to then justify their tax cuts for the wealthy. That's not a partisan knock, that's what they tried. And if Trump's bungling helped derail that...well he accidentally did some good.

Credit where credit is due I suppose.

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It was incredibly naive of them, but many in rust belt dead towns and many in the working (trades) class really did believe that. I talked to them. It freaked me out. Still does.

<alt>doxygen said:

It was incredibly naive of them, but many in rust belt dead towns and many in the working (trades) class really did believe that. I talked to them. It freaked me out. Still does.

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I should have use the caveat "anyone reasonable", I get a bit lazy with the qualifiers sometimes.