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Removing Trump Won’t Solve America’s Crisis

MTAtech said:
Yeah, we never had racial division, wars, or cowardly politicians ever before -- or any of those other items.
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But we certainly never had the volume of apathy and defeatists like the democrat party seems to draw.

Everyone gets to play the victim, and it's brought to you by the likes of Pelosi, Obama's, the Clinton's, and people like yourself. They thrive on dupes just as bad as the other side.
 
ataraxia said:
Well those uneducated simpletons and country bumpkins are not slow enough to realize what they have done now. Even they will not be slow enough to start realizing the pain from the shot they have just fired into their own foot. Sometimes you may see the blood and broken shards of bone first though, before the pain starts to set in. It's just a matter of how many shots get fired into the foot before they start crying uncle:

Trump voters would be among the biggest losers in Republicans' Obamacare replacement plan - LA Times
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Bumpkins and wannabe elite's alike have been voting against their own interests for years. This is not a new phenomenon.
 
MTAtech said:
We throw around key words these days that mean different things to different people. One of those words is the "elite." I look at the elite as the people or group of people who are wealthy and have undue influence for self-serving policies.

The Republican Party, which unmistakably supports the interests of the elite, can only win elections by fooling their base. Conservative billionaire elites don't want to pay higher taxes that will be used to help "those people." There objective is to keep taxes on the rich low and keep government out of their hair. But these people's numbers are small, so they need to fund propaganda groups like the Heritage Foundation to create false data and spread the message to middle-class conservatives, who are generally stupid enough to swallow their lies. Thus the pro-life conservative-leaning worker who listens to Rush Limbaugh will repeatedly vote for the party that is less likely to protect his safety, less likely to protect his job, and less likely to benefit him economically.

Trump, while painting himself as a populist during his campaign he supports standard Republican establishment policy -- tax-cuts for the rich, fewer worker and public protections, and replacing Obamacare with a plan that eliminates its taxes and pays for it by raising prices.

There is no such establishment symmetry on the Democratic side. If you vote for Democrats, you are voting for people who has a long history of fighting for the middle-class; fighting for women's rights; raising taxes on the wealthy (even if raises their taxes); fighting for health care, etc. The policy objectives of the "Democratic establishment" is exactly the objectives of the American voters.

That's the difference.
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Right, we don't agree on anything anymore, to include the meaning of words, which is alarming but even more so is that so many either dont know or don't care because they are not talking about the problem. But you know, so many over the last couple of decades have not cared about the functionality of language, which we know because abusing language for political gain as long been one of the main tools in the toolbox utilized to get us to Utopia, so let's not pretend that the degradation of perhaps the most important aspect of civilization happened by accident.
 
RetiredUSN said:
But we certainly never had the volume of apathy and defeatists like the democrat party seems to draw.

Everyone gets to play the victim, and it's brought to you by the likes of Pelosi, Obama's, the Clinton's, and people like yourself. They thrive on dupes just as bad as the other side.
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AMERICA is CHOCK FULL OF CHUMPS now, and I have no idea what the fix is. This was always advertised as one of the weak points of democracy, and when I was growing up in Rockford Il during the 60's/70's me and my friends all got taught from an early age that education and skepticism of the claims of power were two of the main keys to success in life and in the health of civilization, but man that all disappeared rapidly in America....so rapidly that it almost had to be according to a plan.
 
RetiredUSN said:
But we certainly never had the volume of apathy and defeatists like the democrat party seems to draw.

Everyone gets to play the victim, and it's brought to you by the likes of Pelosi, Obama's, the Clinton's, and people like yourself. They thrive on dupes just as bad as the other side.
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The Democrats play the victims huh? See the news today?
Donald Trump fumes: 'This is the single greatest witch hunt in American history'
no politician in history "has been treated worse or more unfairly."
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The Youths: The country is great if you have some family backing up your education expenses and earn at least a bachelor's degree in a high demand field, like engineering or accounting, or if you earn an advanced degree in something like medical research, finance, or even business administration.

Mid-Career folks: Anyone with advanced skills in a high demand field is doing well, especially those who start their own business or become specialists in something everyone wants.

Late Career/retirement: People with capital and one or both of the above are doing exceptionally well. Very well, actually. Probably better than ever in the history of the US, judging by the growth in value of the Stock Market, real estate and hedge funds since 2009.

Problems: Roughly half the country over the age of 50 are carrying more debt than they hold in investments. Too many mid-career people lack skills which are in demand. And, a bunch of young people are going deep in debt to get degrees in fields for which no one pays decent money.

Who and/or what to blame for the left behind crowd? A little of everyone and everything: them, greedy rich people, pandering politicians, NAFTA, changing times, crumbling cookies...pick your scapegoat.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
AMERICA is CHOCK FULL OF CHUMPS now, and I have no idea what the fix is. This was always advertised as one of the weak points of democracy, and when I was growing up in Rockford Il during the 60's/70's me and my friends all got taught from an early age that education and skepticism of the claims of power were two of the main keys to success in life and in the health of civilization, but man that all disappeared rapidly in America....so rapidly that it almost had to be according to a plan.
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When I was in college, we read the political philosophy of some the great thinkers of the past, like Plato and Nietzsche. In my naive, youthful mind, I would read them ranting against and ridiculing democracy, and I couldn't understand. I was thinking that mauybe they were just old timers from more primitive times who didn't know any better. Now that civilization and culture had thankfully advanced, we had reached a level of maturity of our societies and institutions in our modern liberal democracies which showed that we had finally figured it all out. It was nice to live in modern times, right?

Pffft....Boy, now in this Trump era I look at their writings and realize maybe they knew a little more about what they were talking about than I thought!
 
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ataraxia said:
When I was in college, we read the political philosophy of some the great thinkers of the past, like Plato and Nietzsche. In my naive, youthful mind, I would read them ranting against and ridiculing democracy, and I couldn't understand. I was thinking that mauybe they were just old timers from more primitive times who didn't know any better. Now that civilization and culture had thankfully advanced, we had reached a level of maturity of our societies and institutions in our modern liberal democracies which showed that we had finally figured it all out. It was nice to live in modern times, right?

Pffft....Boy, now in this Trump era I look at their writings and realize maybe they knew a little more about what they were talking about than I thought!
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I am Zen, my mind has been largely trained in the Eastern ways, but Boy Howdy do I know what you mean, except that I got it by the time I was 22. I spent a lot of my time at Michigan State reading through the library, there was so much great stuff there, ignored by almost all. I'll bet a bunch of those great books I read full of ancient wisdom are at the landfill now.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The elite have the power because they suck and because they have the money and because they have the skills needed to run this nation and if they dont get their way they will walk off the job....as they have largely done since We the People sent Trump.

BUT, so long as SCOTUS has money as free speech I dont see how we get the needed reforms, and I am lately thinking that vast amounts of pain to the nation is going to be required to get all of these idiot Americans to wise up, and let me be clear that the elite are the worst idiots of them all, not least because they should know better.
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Great post! :cheers:

I don't like Trump, but I realize why he was sent to Washington. Absolutely.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
AMERICA is CHOCK FULL OF CHUMPS now, and I have no idea what the fix is. This was always advertised as one of the weak points of democracy, and when I was growing up in Rockford Il during the 60's/70's me and my friends all got taught from an early age that education and skepticism of the claims of power were two of the main keys to success in life and in the health of civilization, but man that all disappeared rapidly in America....so rapidly that it almost had to be according to a plan.
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I'm glad you wrote this, and glad I read it.

As you know, I came-up during the same time and was taught by nuns in Catholic Grammar School. Not just nuns, but Polish nuns. Not just Polish nuns, but old Polish nuns. Old Polish nuns from Poland who had lived through Hitler and his war. Nuns who saw what propaganda, disinformation, lack of transparency, and lack of free media could do.

So this is a true story:

In 5th grade we were told that the two major city newspapers were written at the 6th and 7th grade reading level. Since we were Catholic School kids we should have higher standards. So in 5th grade we had to start reading the papers, and doing reports on them and discussing in class.

In class we were expected to produce thorough detailed analysis of the articles. Not just the journalist's '5 W's (who, what, where, when, and why), or the 5 W's and an H (how), but we had to do critical analysis of the author and audience!

Stuff like:

- Who is the author?
- Who is his intended audience?
- What is the purpose of his article? (explanatory, persuasive, etc)

And we did this everyday all year, dissecting the paper for local and national news and opinion! And the class was taught in the Socratic method, with full student participation, including between the individual students! We were taught to criticize and question everything. Take nothing as fact, and nothing presupposed. And we had to present evidence to back-up our thoughts and arguments. It's all pretty amazing when I look back at it. Especially considering our tender age.

But here's why I'm writing this:

I thought all this was due to the nature of Catholic 'Scholastic' style education. But now, I'm wondering if this was a more general feature of society or education in that era, especially seeing we're both speaking of the same general geographical area?
 
Chomsky said:
Great post! :cheers:

I don't like Trump, but I realize why he was sent to Washington. Absolutely.
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Then again you plaster "THINK" on your forehead, so of course....

thankyou.gif
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Then again you plaster "THINK" on your forehead, so of course....

thankyou.gif
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No thanks needed.

I'm always happy to give credit where I believe credit's due.

Just like I always try to call ****, '****'. :mrgreen:
 
Chomsky said:
No thanks needed.

I'm always happy to give credit where I believe credit's due.

Just like I always try to call ****, '****'. :mrgreen:
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Oh Ya, I know, I wish there were more like us.
 
Chomsky said:
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But here's why I'm writing this:

I thought all this was due to the nature of Catholic 'Scholastic' style education. But now, I'm wondering if this was a more general feature of society or education in that era, especially seeing we're both speaking of the same general geographical area?
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I wish I had paid more attention but I know that the Great Depression was a big player in the heavy selling of "Dont be a Chump" to my crowd, later too of course it was Nam. What else IDK. Talking about the NAZI's was like talking about cancer, it did not happen.....but maybe that was the biggest reason...IDK.
 
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ChezC3 said:
I think the Wikileaks outing of the behind the scenes shenanigans at the DNC puts a rain cloud over the idea of "open" and "participatory". If my those words you mean people getting a fair shake.

I've been at it for years railing against the system which chooses are choices. Trump was an actual choice of the people not just one of two candidates who the Establishment decided was acceptable for us to choose from.

Now, I know enough to understand that this flies directly in the face of how a democratic republic is suppose to be run, but then it is a fitting outcome for those who get too high up on their soapbox extolling the virtues of democracy. (in the singular)

The problem lies in the disconnect between those who should govern and they whom shall be governed. Even now, with Trump's election, the elite's (and please imagine quotes around the word "elite" every time I use it, though lazily omit their usage) still are flummoxed. They do not understand that the interests they are pursuing are at odds with those they are there to represent. They continue to take, lower, impose, diminish -- all the while telling the people that it is for their own good, and calling them uneducated simpletons, country bumpkins too slow to realize that their rising cost of living and lower wages are the best thing that could ever happen to them.
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This is one of the disturbing things that this last election turned up. The People nominated a Republican candidate that seemed by all rational standards to be rather unsuitable for the job. That is rather a negative experience that requires an additional check or balance to the electoral system. But it is also quite obvious that the problem was not the EC as the popular vote would have returned an equally dubious character albeit with a different set of negative qualities.
 
Ikari said:
The political elite ARE the problem. It's the Republocrat Party that is choking out America. I cannot stand Trump's presidency, but I wasn't supporting Hillary either because I believe that too would have been a disaster. Election after election the Republocrats have shoved down our throats their Party Players. Trump, on some level, broke that, but on another level he's just the other side of the Corporate State. We perceived him as an outsider, but he wasn't really. He was part of the elite, and he also happens to be terrible as President.

The system will not improve until we get the reform necessary to really force political competition. The destruction of political competition by the Republocrat Party has stifled our political system and led to the hyper-partisanship of today. And until we break that stranglehold, we shall continue to decay.
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In other words we are in trouble until we drain the swamp. I agree that the political parties are the source of the swamp water. The voters own the failure to vote the swamp out of office.
 
Mr. Invisible said:
Agreed, but then the question becomes: How do we address the money issue when the very politicians who would have to vote against their own self-interest won't even bring the matter up and the public can't really force them to, for the most part?
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The electorate has to vote against incumbents and continue doing it until the politicians do vote against their personal interest.
 
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