Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Thread: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

  1. #1
    Advisor, aka "bub" sear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adirondack Park, NY
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    925

    Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    Anyone that's checked the LP.org site understands what a bunch of Don Quixote's the Libertarians are.

    It doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong.
    What it means is, they rarely if ever get elected.

    BUT !!

    I've got a few paragraphs from my favorite presidential candidate of all time.

    I'll start with one sample, more available on request:
    The following excerpted from U.S. Presidential candidate Libertarian Andre Marrou's
    1992 stump speech.

    "The annual subsidy for each American dairy cow is between $600-$700 dollars a year.
    This is greater than the per capita income of half of the worlds population. And what do
    we get for that? We get a price for milk and other dairy products that's double the
    world's level.
    Who does this impinge on? Primarily poor people with children. Rich people could care
    less what the price of milk is. Poor people without children, they don't use much milk.
    It's the poor people with children who are primarily hurt by this."
    I've never fact-checked that. But isn't it a nice thought?
    "The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is." Mary Pettibone Poole

  2. #2
    Sage

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,490

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    Anyone that's checked the LP.org site understands what a bunch of Don Quixote's the Libertarians are.

    It doesn't necessarily mean they're wrong.
    What it means is, they rarely if ever get elected.

    BUT !!

    I've got a few paragraphs from my favorite presidential candidate of all time.

    I'll start with one sample, more available on request:

    I've never fact-checked that. But isn't it a nice thought?
    Yup, there is no excuse for government to subsidize cattle.

  3. #3
    Advisor, aka "bub" sear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adirondack Park, NY
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    925

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    f #2

    Fair enough. But if you'll pardon a little probing here:

    a) It's not really a subsidy to cattle. It's a subsidy FOR cattle, which goes to cattle ranchers.

    b) What about the "promote the general welfare" stipulation in the Preamble?

    You see fw,
    I was born in 1954.
    My elementary school teachers had all lived through WWII as adults. It was a memory to them more vivid than the attacks of 09/11/01 are to you and me.

    And when I was in first grade, there was a school milk program.
    For three pennies a day, students could buy a one cup (one forth of a quart) of milk in its individual carton.

    So what?

    Our legislators realized:

    1) There was a lot of poverty around. And many of the students whose parents didn't buy much milk would be drinking water instead.
    And water doesn't have as much Calcium. So they might not be as sturdy as adults. AND !!

    2) The ones from poorer families might be more likely the ones to populate our military, when they became of age. Therefore that school milk program was:

    3) A subsidy to dairy operators.
    A means to provide Uncle Sam a fresh crop of military troops for the next big war.

    Kind of a win / win.

    88888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888888 88888

    So my question to you fw:
    Should the U.S. reject ANY such subsidy, no matter how much of a net benefit it is; simply on principle? Or:

    should we only consider such subsidy if it's a net benefit?
    "The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is." Mary Pettibone Poole

  4. #4
    Sage

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,490

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    f #2

    Fair enough. But if you'll pardon a little probing here:

    a) It's not really a subsidy to cattle. It's a subsidy FOR cattle, which goes to cattle ranchers.
    You assumed that I believe cattle have bank accounts?

    b) What about the "promote the general welfare" stipulation in the Preamble?
    What about the concept of equality shared by the founders?

    You see fw,
    I was born in 1954.
    My elementary school teachers had all lived through WWII as adults. It was a memory to them more vivid than the attacks of 09/11/01 are to you and me.
    I was born in 1944 during WWII

    And when I was in first grade, there was a school milk program.
    For three pennies a day, students could buy a one cup (one forth of a quart) of milk in its individual carton.

    So what?
    So nothing as long the school district didn't lose money in the transaction.

    Our legislators realized:

    1) There was a lot of poverty around. And many of the students whose parents didn't buy much milk would be drinking water instead.
    And water doesn't have as much Calcium. So they might not be as sturdy as adults. AND !!
    what does that have to do with anything?

    2) The ones from poorer families might be more likely the ones to populate our military, when they became of age. Therefore that school milk program was:

    3) A subsidy to dairy operators.
    A means to provide Uncle Sam a fresh crop of military troops for the next big war.
    There is no excuse for government subsidizing ag products or school meals. Sorry.


    So my question to you fw:
    Should the U.S. reject ANY such subsidy, no matter how much of a net benefit it is; simply on principle? Or:

    should we only consider such subsidy if it's a net benefit?
    Net benefit is subjective. It is opinion. That is why we need to concentrate on equality. I won't repeat my position on government subsidies. It should be clear by now.

  5. #5
    Advisor, aka "bub" sear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adirondack Park, NY
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    925

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    "b) What about the "promote the general welfare" stipulation in the Preamble?" s

    "What about the concept of equality shared by the founders?" fw
    So you acknowledge there are competing principles involved?
    "For three pennies a day, students could buy a one cup (one forth of a quart) of milk in its individual carton."

    So what?
    "So nothing as long the school district didn't lose money in the transaction." fw
    And if they did?

    $Money is fungible.

    Skim (no pun intended) 3 cents per student from the school budget, to pay HUGE dividends for the defense budget decades later;
    it's all United States government.
    Not tidy, I admit.
    But in the broader scheme, don't you think it's rather trivial?

    Let's focus:
    Trump is gunning for Meals on Wheels. Perhaps he deems it a "liberal" waste of $tax $dollars.

    BUT !!

    In some cases it can save $money. Beware the penny wise & pound foolish.

    Skimping a few dollars on Meals on Wheels which enables handicapped seniors to remain living at home,
    can result in them having to move to a nursing home; where it's vastly more expensive than their share of Meals on Wheels.
    "Net benefit is subjective. It is opinion."
    Potentially, but not necessarily.

    We can quantify the costs of outcomes with numerical precision. We needn't actually spend the money.
    We can simply determine the A : B $cost contrast.
    "That is why we need to concentrate on equality."
    How very tidy! Locking in their powerful advantage in an intrinsically unbalanced system, all in the noble sounding name of "equality"!

    Many a Republican has banged that gong.
    Who do you (they) think you're kidding?

    They wish to preserve the uneven playing field, one where we all KNOW the outcomes will not be equal,
    and they advocate maintaining the disparity in the name of "equality".
    "It's another example of mismanagement in corporate America where we're now expected as tax payers to bail them out. They're capitalists when they make money. But they're socialists when they lose money."
    Actor Tim Robins, commenting on a California commercial electric power crisis
    "The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is." Mary Pettibone Poole

  6. #6
    Sage

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,490

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    Quote Originally Posted by sear View Post
    So you acknowledge there are competing principles involved?

    And if they did?

    $Money is fungible.

    Skim (no pun intended) 3 cents per student from the school budget, to pay HUGE dividends for the defense budget decades later;
    it's all United States government.
    Not tidy, I admit.
    But in the broader scheme, don't you think it's rather trivial?

    Let's focus:
    Trump is gunning for Meals on Wheels. Perhaps he deems it a "liberal" waste of $tax $dollars.

    BUT !!

    In some cases it can save $money. Beware the penny wise & pound foolish.

    Skimping a few dollars on Meals on Wheels which enables handicapped seniors to remain living at home,
    can result in them having to move to a nursing home; where it's vastly more expensive than their share of Meals on Wheels.

    Potentially, but not necessarily.

    We can quantify the costs of outcomes with numerical precision. We needn't actually spend the money.
    We can simply determine the A : B $cost contrast.

    How very tidy! Locking in their powerful advantage in an intrinsically unbalanced system, all in the noble sounding name of "equality"!

    Many a Republican has banged that gong.
    Who do you (they) think you're kidding?

    They wish to preserve the uneven playing field, one where we all KNOW the outcomes will not be equal,
    and they advocate maintaining the disparity in the name of "equality".
    What you are failing to get from my position is that I don't think these things are an appropriate role for government whether they are effective, useful, successful, helpful or not. It is my opinion. You disagree with it. We're done here.

  7. #7
    Advisor, aka "bub" sear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adirondack Park, NY
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    925

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    So you oppose utilitarianism, and maximum efficiency in government spending for a prosperous nation? Fine.

    Are you familiar with the recent "happiness" studies done among nations?
    I gather Denmark was the winner for years, but may have recently been bumped (to #2?).

    We pay for 9 nuclear aircraft carriers. They get subsidized access to higher education, tuition $plus a stipend.

    We spend $X on government, whatever that amount may be.

    IF we are to spend that $amount, don't you think prosperity, the benefit to the People that are paying the $bills should be a criterion in how it is spent?

    I'm not saying government should buy everyone a "free" pony.

    But some that I've read indicates some government "spending" programs may pay for themselves: the G.I. Bill comes to mind.

    Did it cost the $government? ABSOLUTELY!!

    Did it pay for itself? Perhaps (according to source) with a net $gain for the government. How? College educated workers (veterans) earn higher $salaries. Thus the $tuition benefit they drew for 4 years could pay income tax dividends to government for 40 years or more.

    Is a net benefit to government really such a high price to pay for rewarding our U.S. military veterans an elevated standard of living, for their faithful service?
    "The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is." Mary Pettibone Poole

  8. #8
    Sage
    Geoist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:32 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    8,692

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    If I may go on a bit of a rant against milk for a second... I have become so sickened by the practices of the cattle/dairy industry that I have stopped drinking milk altogether. The propaganda about animal milk being essential to human survival is so pervasive... yet we are the only animals that continue to drink milk into adulthood. Cow milk is meant as calf growth formula. It is meant to make the calf grow tremendously in a short amount of time. Somehow I do not see that as being beneficial for humans, especially while facing an obesity epidemic.
    "Men did not make the earth ... it is the value of the improvement only, and not the earth itself, that is individual property... Every proprietor owes to the community a ground rent for the land which he holds." -- Thomas Paine, Agrarian Justice
    http://www.wealthandwant.com/

  9. #9
    Advisor, aka "bub" sear's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Adirondack Park, NY
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:34 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    925

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    G #8

    Excellent G, even if it doesn't qualify as a rant.

    I'm w/ you on it. There are substitutes now that seem to be as good or better; "silk" for example.
    I don't recall having tried any of the substitutes. But they seem to be holding their own in the market.

    Want to put people off milk even more?
    I once read (have not corroborated) that when the mammary gland is traced back in evolution, that it originates in what is essentially a sweat-gland.

    Mmmmm

    Here's another from Marrou:
    In 1992 Libertarian candidate for U.S. President Andre Marrou included in his campaign
    stump speech:

    "... the United States is increasingly socialistic under the Democrats & Republicans.
    The Democrats are essentially left wing socialists. The Republicans are right wing
    socialists. How do you define socialism? More money to government, more power to
    government, more bureaucrats, and more regulations, and on and on ... .
    The federal government spends 25% of the Gross National Product. State, county, and
    local government spend another 22%. That's 47% of the Gross National Product of this
    country being spent by the government bureaucrats primarily on themselves. That
    leaves 53% in your pockets. You're the people who earn it. 47% vs 53%; how can we
    get your 53% up to 90%? One and only one way, we must reduce the 47% the
    government spends, down to 10%. That is the only way it can be done. Individual
    Liberty is diametrically opposed to governmental power.
    "The next best thing to being clever is being able to quote someone who is." Mary Pettibone Poole

  10. #10
    Sage

    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Last Seen
    Today @ 05:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,490

    Re: Libertarians are "also rans", BUT !! ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Geoist View Post
    If I may go on a bit of a rant against milk for a second... I have become so sickened by the practices of the cattle/dairy industry that I have stopped drinking milk altogether. The propaganda about animal milk being essential to human survival is so pervasive... yet we are the only animals that continue to drink milk into adulthood. Cow milk is meant as calf growth formula. It is meant to make the calf grow tremendously in a short amount of time. Somehow I do not see that as being beneficial for humans, especially while facing an obesity epidemic.
    You are right. Medical professionals do not recommend milk drinking by adults. What are the sickening practices of the dairy industry?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •