The fundamental problem with conservatives

Gonzo Rodeo · Feb 9, 2017

Nilly said:

Why do liberals think the game is so rigged that the Paula character CAN'T succeed, no matter what she does?

It's easy to blame others for one's current position.

Kal'Stang · Feb 9, 2017

MrWonka said:
It seems like I'm finding that so many of the disagreements that we have in the United States today break down along the same exact lines. Conservatives fail to grasp the incredibly enormous distinction between knocking someone off their high horse, and stomping them into the ground. The difference between taking someone down a peg, and kicking them when they are already on the ground. One is not only acceptably, but often times very necessary, the other is absolutely abhorrent. What at a cursory glance may seem like the same actions, tactics, or behaviors are judged radically differently depending on who is using them against who.

That doesn't mean it's a double standard it means that when you are in a position of power over someone you cannot blame them for using whatever means are at their disposal to defend themselves, but when you are the one who is dominating another person in every conceivable way to use cheap shots in order to further your dominance is completely out of line.

Conservatives simply cannot grasp this reality. In their minds letting their opponents stand up is equivalent to being knocked down themselves. Worse yet their opponent isn't even trying to fight them, it simply wants to stand up. They assume that if their opponent gets to equal footing with them then they will start doing the same things to them that they have been doing to their opponent for decades.

White Christian Men in our society have grown so accustom to their position of dominance that anything less than dominance over others is seen as an injury to them. How does one overcome this mental block and get through to these people?

1: White Christian Men? Good to know that you have no problem marginalizing everyone in that is a Conservative that isn't white and/or isn't religious. And that you think racist thoughts.

2: Bold: Yes, it is a double standard if you use the same cheap shots while trying to say that "you cannot blame them for using whatever means are at their disposal" and then expect them to not return the "favor". You don't seem to understand that if you want to "get along" then you need to NOT use cheap shots. (and no, conservatives are no better at understanding this) Reality shows that the old mantra of "an eye for an eye" is still very much at work from both sides of the fence. Even at the level of perceived slights.

3: Red: The ole' "poor me" mantra. :roll: Plain fact of the matter is that Liberals are standing at the same level as Conservatives. But they LOVE playing the victim. They see everything through the "ism"/"ist"/"phobia" glasses. Where if the other side doesn't "conform" to a certain way of thinking then they are automatically a "racist" or "xenophobic" or are "racists" or {insert whatever other claim here} etc etc etc. And no, this isn't an attempt to deny that those things do not exist. But according to the Liberal side those only exist in the Conservative side and that it encompasses 97% if not all 100% of the Conservative side. When in reality, at worst, it only encompasses a max of 30%. (I'd say more around 10%). Liberals also love to ignore the "ism's" on their side of the fence. (often playing that victim card while doing it)

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

Gonzo Rodeo said:
Why do liberals think the game is so rigged that the Paula character CAN'T succeed, no matter what she does?

They don't. That is just right wing propaganda that leads you to believe this. Paula may be able to succeed, but it is clearly much much much more difficult for her. What liberals want is for the government to do for poor people what at least an average lower middle class parent could easily afford to do for their child. By helping to make sure that nobody is starting out the race of life way way behind everyone else we increase the likelihood that the very best, and most talented people will actually succeed.

It's entirely possible that if Paula would have grown up in the same situation as Richard that she would have not only achieved the same success he did, but radically surpassed him. Meanwhile if Richard had grown up in the same situation as Paula he my have ended up in prison. There could be countless people just like Paula that are absolutely brilliant and have the next great idea that revolutionizes society for the better, but they're starting so far behind the rest of society they never reach a point where they can bring their ideas to fruition.

Stupid people always complain about the fact that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. They convince themselves that there are millions of lazy "wheels" out there who don't really need oil at all they're just squeaking to get rewarded. This is complete and total bull****. The reality is wheels squeak because they need oil, and ignoring them just wrecks your wagon.

Liberals simply realize that the whole point of a society is that we can achieve more as a team than we can as individuals. But like a professional sports team you can't just throw all your money at one player and ignore the rest. Tom Brady is obviously the most important player on the Patriots, but if you just keep throwing more and more money at him and ignored the offensive line or the defense then the Patriots would be terrible. It doesn't matter how good Brady is he couldn't carry the whole team by himself. A well run society should run like a good team. You give your stars enough to keep them from going to another team, but you have to invest in your bit players and your mid-level talent or your team will quickly go to ****.

Any decent leader knows that it doesn't matter how good your CEO is if he doesn't have good talent underneath him to execute his plans the business will fail. Conversely you can have a pretty ****ty CEO, but if he has a lot of good talent around him the company will probably be fine. Well the problem we are having in this country right now is we don't have enough mid-level talent. We have more Job openings available in America today than we have at any point in American history. The problem is that most of those jobs require skills that not enough American's have.

I'm a software developer and my company is having such a hard time finding decent IT people that they had no choice, but to open up an office in India. They didn't want to because the conference calls and the language barriers make it annoying, but we simply don't have the talent here in America because we're not investing in our children the way we should be. Republicans are making it so that only the wealth can afford the things their children need to succeed. They are dumping oil on wheels that aren't squeaking while letting the loudest wheel rust off the wagon.

Gonzo Rodeo · Feb 9, 2017

MrWonka said:
They don't. That is just right wing propaganda that leads you to believe this. Paula may be able to succeed, but it is clearly much much much more difficult for her. What liberals want is for the government to do for poor people what at least an average lower middle class parent could easily afford to do for their child. By helping to make sure that nobody is starting out the race of life way way behind everyone else we increase the likelihood that the very best, and most talented people will actually succeed.

It's entirely possible that if Paula would have grown up in the same situation as Richard that she would have not only achieved the same success he did, but radically surpassed him. Meanwhile if Richard had grown up in the same situation as Paula he my have ended up in prison. There could be countless people just like Paula that are absolutely brilliant and have the next great idea that revolutionizes society for the better, but they're starting so far behind the rest of society they never reach a point where they can bring their ideas to fruition.

Stupid people always complain about the fact that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. They convince themselves that there are millions of lazy "wheels" out there who don't really need oil at all they're just squeaking to get rewarded. This is complete and total bull****. The reality is wheels squeak because they need oil, and ignoring them just wrecks your wagon.

Liberals simply realize that the whole point of a society is that we can achieve more as a team than we can as individuals. But like a professional sports team you can't just throw all your money at one player and ignore the rest. Tom Brady is obviously the most important player on the Patriots, but if you just keep throwing more and more money at him and ignored the offensive line or the defense then the Patriots would be terrible. It doesn't matter how good Brady is he couldn't carry the whole team by himself. A well run society should run like a good team. You give your stars enough to keep them from going to another team, but you have to invest in your bit players and your mid-level talent or your team will quickly go to ****.

Any decent leader knows that it doesn't matter how good your CEO is if he doesn't have good talent underneath him to execute his plans the business will fail. Conversely you can have a pretty ****ty CEO, but if he has a lot of good talent around him the company will probably be fine. Well the problem we are having in this country right now is we don't have enough mid-level talent. We have more Job openings available in America today than we have at any point in American history. The problem is that most of those jobs require skills that not enough American's have.

I'm a software developer and my company is having such a hard time finding decent IT people that they had no choice, but to open up an office in India. They didn't want to because the conference calls and the language barriers make it annoying, but we simply don't have the talent here in America because we're not investing in our children the way we should be. Republicans are making it so that only the wealth can afford the things their children need to succeed. They are dumping oil on wheels that aren't squeaking while letting the loudest wheel rust off the wagon.

I don't necessarily disagree with the gist of what you are saying. Buy the idea that Paula will always have a harder time and Richard will always have an easier time is a tidy story and not an accurate reflection of reality.

There are certain stereotypical assumptions of minorities and those of lower household incomes that muse be true and invoked in order to paint such a dire picture of privilege an insurmountable obstacles. Two people who work equally hard are not necessarily going to wind up in places predetermined by their household income growing up. Culturally speaking, however, a person's environment can and often does directly affect their willingness and ability to succeed. For kids, this is the sometimes tragic result of parents who, for whatever reason, have not done everything in their power to give their kids a better life. I am simply tired of hearing that there isn't a single lazy person out there who is poor because they deserve it, because bankers/big oil/the Koch Brothers/the Waltons, etc.

gdgyva · Feb 9, 2017

DifferentDrummr said:
Actually, the real problem with conservatives is that they all consider themselves to be self-made men and women, and therefore everyone else is obviously an inferior being.

Why do so many liberals, and democrats disdain people who have had success? I just don't understand that mindset....

I applaud those that succeed, be they black, white, men, women, young or old.

I realize how hard it is to reach a certain level of success, and even harder to maintain it

Of course those people had help on the way up....education, financing, luck, parentage, etc, etc, etc

But they themselves had to take those ingredients and still make it work....many can't, or won't even try

So stop looking down on those that are successful....they make our economy hum....they employ people, and they inspire others to success

All really good things....

Mac77 · Feb 9, 2017

Nilly said:

Did Paula graduate from high school with decent grades that would get her into jr collage?

ocean515 · Feb 9, 2017

MrWonka said:
It seems like I'm finding that so many of the disagreements that we have in the United States today break down along the same exact lines. Conservatives fail to grasp the incredibly enormous distinction between knocking someone off their high horse, and stomping them into the ground. The difference between taking someone down a peg, and kicking them when they are already on the ground. One is not only acceptably, but often times very necessary, the other is absolutely abhorrent. What at a cursory glance may seem like the same actions, tactics, or behaviors are judged radically differently depending on who is using them against who.

That doesn't mean it's a double standard it means that when you are in a position of power over someone you cannot blame them for using whatever means are at their disposal to defend themselves, but when you are the one who is dominating another person in every conceivable way to use cheap shots in order to further your dominance is completely out of line.

Conservatives simply cannot grasp this reality. In their minds letting their opponents stand up is equivalent to being knocked down themselves. Worse yet their opponent isn't even trying to fight them, it simply wants to stand up. They assume that if their opponent gets to equal footing with them then they will start doing the same things to them that they have been doing to their opponent for decades.

White Christian Men in our society have grown so accustom to their position of dominance that anything less than dominance over others is seen as an injury to them. How does one overcome this mental block and get through to these people?

Who invented the need for safe spaces, and whos actions inspired the use of the word "Snowflake".

It's a bit disingenuous to attempt to suggest an effort to destroy anyone with opposing opinions is just "knocking someone down a peg".

Talk to those people who have suffered from all out attacks, seen their business destroyed, or their professional careers ruined, what that peg dropping felt like.

What a remarkable screed. :roll:

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

Gonzo Rodeo said:
I don't necessarily disagree with the gist of what you are saying. Buy the idea that Paula will always have a harder time and Richard will always have an easier time is a tidy story and not an accurate reflection of reality.

No, it most certainly is not.

Gonzo Rodeo said:
I am simply tired of hearing that there isn't a single lazy person out there who is poor because they deserve it

Well then stop saying it, because liberals certainly aren't making that argument. That is a straw man created by conservatives.

However, the question that needs to be asked is if we're going to error which way should we error? Would you rather accidentally feed a lazy person or accidentally starve a valuable asset to society?

Furthermore, when it comes to hard work who is really working "harder." Just the other day me and another Software developer were joking about the fact that we're so lazy actually makes us really good at our jobs because we're efficient and don't want to do the same work twice. In the last year at my current job I probably did about 5 hours of real work per week. In fact even at this moment I'm dicking around on the internet. Now this isn't because I'm necessarily sloughing off it's because there isn't a ton of work for me at this particular moment. I don't work hard, I work smart. My dad probably worked 20 times harder in his life time than I ever will, but because he grew up relatively poor and didn't have some of the benefits of a great education he spent his life working in a tin shed, in Minnesota fixing saws, and getting his fingers cut to pieces his whole life. Meanwhile I barely put forth any effort whatsoever and I already make twice as much as he ever could, live by the beach, and drive a convertible.

Work ethic has nothing to do with that. I had opportunities that he never had, and not just because he worked hard to give them to me. The government paid for my grammar school and high school. They paid for half my college tuition, and borrowed me the other half at insanely low interest rates. The government invested in me the same way a wealth family can invest their kids. In return they get a high value worker that will pay income taxes instead of collecting welfare as an adult.

Sweden · Feb 9, 2017

natsb said:
Oh my! I am a Christian man, but I am not white. Do you have an over generalized category for this conservative? Or does two out of three still let me in the club.

Sent from my LG-V930 using Tapatalk

I sympathise Natsb. Although my ancestors came from Africa I pass for 'white'. I am a man but certainly not Christian. Could we not form a 'generalised category' of our own? 'Conservative men with common sense' - something like that?

atsb

Nilly · Feb 9, 2017

Mac77 said:
Did Paula graduate from high school with decent grades that would get her into jr collage?

I don't know, she's a fictional character in a comic.

Mac77 · Feb 9, 2017

Nilly said:
I don't know, she's a fictional character in a comic.

You had no problem promoting fiction as fact up to now

So use your intuition and answer my question

Did Paula graduate from high school with decent grades that would get her into jr college?

Nilly · Feb 9, 2017

Mac77 said:
You had no problem promoting fiction as fact up to now

So use your intuition and answer my question

Did Paula graduate from high school with decent grades that would get her into jr college?

She's a fictional representation of many peoples fact. So some people in her situation did get in, some people didn't.

If we're going to delve into the fictional life of Paula then I'd say yes. It says in the comic she's at a polytech.

Sweden · Feb 9, 2017

Mac77 said:
Did Paula graduate from high school with decent grades that would get her into jr collage?

Collage is an underated art form. Materials need not be expensive - and may, except for glue or paste, be obtained for free at paper recycling points. Paula could enjoy - and maybe even profit from - collage regardless of her high school grades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collage

Mac77 · Feb 9, 2017

Nilly said:
She's a fictional representation of many peoples fact. So some people in her situation did get in, some people didn't.

If we're going to delve into the fictional life of Paula then I'd say yes. It says in the comic she's at a polytech.

Polytech?

If that's your answer then good for her

She may never catch the fictional Roger in earnings

but in America there is more than enough for everyone who works hard and makes intelligent personal decisions

Mac77 · Feb 9, 2017

Sweden said:
Collage is an underated art form. Materials need not be expensive - and may, except for glue or paste, be obtained for free at paper recycling points. Paula could enjoy - and maybe even profit from - collage regardless of her high school grades.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collage

If Paula does drugs or gets pregnant and drops out of high school that is her fault and liberals cannot blame the fictional Roger for that

But if she does not screw up she can still enjoy a good life in spite of her humble beginnings

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

Mac77 said:
but in America there more than enough for everyone who works hard and makes intelligent personal decisions

I can only assume you have the same contempt for all those coal miners and other out of work white guys in the rust belt that gave Trump the edge. Make sure they know that they have no right to complain about their circumstances because if they just made intelligent personal decisions they would be doing just fine.

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

Koke said:
Are these by chance the same white Christian men that first immigrated to America and successfully created the most free and prosperous civilization of all time?

No, these are the ancestors of the white christian men who were SECOND to move to America murdering all the actual Americans that where already here, and whom kidnapped a bunch of strong hard working black people to build their civilization for them free of charge, only to accuse them of being lazy criminals once they had to start paying them.

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

Lutherf said:
they are getting a little pissed that some lunatic is running around the living room screaming about oppression while hogging the TV remote.

Well then maybe they should tell the cry baby president they got elected to sit down and shut up.

Mac77 · Feb 9, 2017

MrWonka said:
I can only assume you have the same contempt for all those coal miners and other out of work white guys in the rust belt that gave Trump the edge. Make sure they know that they have no right to complain about their circumstances because if they just made intelligent personal decisions they would be doing just fine.

If the coal mine closes because wacko lib environmentalists hate fossil fuels than I wont blame the coal miners for that

But if they decide to spend their unemployment checks on booze and become hopeless alcoholics the blame for that is theirs

So if the fictional Paula decides to be a welfare bum instead of attending a trade school that's her fault and don't blame the fictional Roger for that

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

TheGoverness said:
It is unwise to generalize (hey, that rhymed).

When you're talking about a political party generalizations are significantly more acceptable. What groups them together in their political party in the first places is their like minded beliefs. If you vote for Republicans you're at the very least supporting people who have this problem even if you don't have it yourself.

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

Mac77 said:
Liberals think its time for minorities and guilt-ridden whites like themselves to take over because prosperity is not everything

Again...proving my point. You seem to be equating someone wanting a reasonable level of control relative to a true representation of their population with a "take over." You seem to believe black people, women, Muslims, Latino's want complete control so they can dominate white men the way white men have always done to them. Thank you for proving my point.

MrWonka · Feb 9, 2017

Fenton said:
Since 2010. the Democrats have lost over a thousand seats, 12 Governorships, the House, the Senate and finally the Presidency.

That's because in 2008 they won a super majority. Kind of no place to go but down from there.

Fenton said:
Liberal posters on this very forum were bragging about the GOP's eventual demise,

That's actually still going to happen. Trump is a desperation play. You can't even win a majority of votes when you do win. It's only a matter of time before the numbers catch up with you.

Sweden · Feb 9, 2017

MrWonka said:
I can only assume you have the same contempt for all those coal miners and other out of work white guys in the rust belt that gave Trump the edge. Make sure they know that they have no right to complain about their circumstances because if they just made intelligent personal decisions they would be doing just fine.

The out of work guys in the rust belt have just made an intelligent decision. They voted against the elites that have betrayed them and for Trump, who gives top priority to their interests.

Lutherf · Feb 9, 2017

MrWonka said:
Well then maybe they should tell the cry baby president they got elected to sit down and shut up.

Well, the duly elected president has just as much right to cry about the stuff that pisses him off as the last duly elected president did. It's all the same wailing and gnashing of teeth, just different incentives for that whining.

Mac77 · Feb 9, 2017

MrWonka said:
Again...proving my point. You seem to be equating someone wanting a reasonable level of control relative to a true representation of their population with a "take over." You seem to believe black people, women, Muslims, Latino's want complete control so they can dominate white men the way white men have always done to them. Thank you for proving my point.

You waved the bloody shirt of race in your first post

MrWonka said:
White Christian Men in our society have grown so accustom to their position of dominance that anything less than dominance over others is seen as an injury to them. How does one overcome this mental block and get through to these people?

What you are saying is that you want to bring white people down simply because they are white

And that is unacceptable

White Christian men see themselves as individual human beings first

But you only see them as members of the white race

The fundamental problem with conservatives

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant

Kal'Stang

MrWonka

Gonzo Rodeo

better late than pregnant

gdgyva

Mac77

ocean515

MrWonka

Sweden

Nilly

stb

Mac77

Nilly

stb

Sweden

Mac77

Mac77

MrWonka

MrWonka

MrWonka

Mac77

MrWonka

MrWonka

MrWonka

Sweden

Lutherf

Mac77