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The fundamental problem with conservatives

Mac77 said:
Polytech?

If that's your answer then good for her

She may never catch the fictional Roger in earnings

but in America there more than enough for everyone who works hard and makes intelligent personal decisions
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Right, I'm sure.

But the point of the story is that small differences in peoples circumstances add up to a big difference. They limit the doors that are open to you and mean you can't always make the smartest decision. Through no fault of their own.

And the point of the story isn't to delegitimize Richard's hard work. You can see him studying, he's earnt what he has, but the difference in outcome between the two isn't because Paula wasn't smart, or that she or her parents didn't work hard. There are background factors at play.
 
Nilly said:
Right, I'm sure.

But the point of the story is that small differences in peoples circumstances add up to a big difference. They limit the doors that are open to you and mean you can't always make the smartest decision. Through no fault of their own.

And the point of the story isn't to delegitimize Richard's hard work. You can see him studying, he's earnt what he has, but the difference in outcome between the two isn't because Paula wasn't smart, or that she or her parents didn't work hard. There are background factors at play.
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Why must we obsess over the difference in outcome to begin with?

The fictional Richard or roger has his life to live and the fictional Paula has hers

Does she have to have exactly as much as every other person to be happy?
 
sweden said:
the out of work guys in the rust belt have just made an intelligent decision. They voted against the elites that have betrayed them and for trump, who gives top priority to their interests.
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Mac77 said:
Why must we obsess over the difference in outcome to begin with?

The fictional Richard or roger has his life to live and the fictional Paula has hers

Does she have to have exactly as much as every other person to be happy?
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No, of course not. But why should she have less access to something like healthcare than Richard?
 
gdgyva said:
Why do so many liberals, and democrats disdain people who have had success? I just don't understand that mindset....
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Because they don't. It's not that hard to understand, guy.

The only people they do disdain - and rightly so - are the ones who believe, "I deserve all the success I've had, and therefore anyone who hasn't had success doesn't deserve it."
 
Mac77 said:
Why must we obsess over the difference in outcome to begin with?
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We're not we're obsessing over the differences in opportunities.

Mac77 said:
The fictional Richard or roger has his life to live and the fictional Paula has hers
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And despite doing nothing to deserve it Richard's turns out way way better than Paula's.

Mac77 said:
Does she have to have exactly as much as every other person to be happy?
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Does Richard need to have 10x what Paula has to be happy? If not why not contribute some of Richard's excess to insure Paula has a better chance at being happy?

The really more important question is when Richard goes around claiming that he worked hard for everything he's gotten and that nothing was ever given to him on a silver platter is he ****ing delusional? Yes....yes he is.

I don't begrudge anybody for wealth, but the audacity that too many wealthy Republicans have in acting like the reason they are where they are is because they worked really hard and that's it. The audacity to go around attributing evil traits to the poor just so you can sleep at night in your ivory tower without feeling guilty is disgusting.
 
Mac77 said:
Trump is not a guilt-ridden rich guy who is ashamed of what he has accomplished

The coal miners know that's what America needs to get us started again
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If the coal miners were smart enough to know what was in their own best interest they wouldn't be jobless coal miners.
 
MrWonka said:
We're not we're obsessing over the differences in opportunities.


And despite doing nothing to deserve it Richard's turns out way way better than Paula's.


Does Richard need to have 10x what Paula has to be happy? If not why not contribute some of Richard's excess to insure Paula has a better chance at being happy?

The really more important question is when Richard goes around claiming that he worked hard for everything he's gotten and that nothing was ever given to him on a silver platter is he ****ing delusional? Yes....yes he is.

I don't begrudge anybody for wealth, but the audacity that too many wealthy Republicans have in acting like the reason they are where they are is because they worked really hard and that's it. The audacity to go around attributing evil traits to the poor just so you can sleep at night in your ivory tower without feeling guilty is disgusting.
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Disagree with your interpretation. You can see him studying in an upper panel. Richard may well have worked super hard to get where he is, it's just that there were less barriers to him to achieve what he did than for Paula. That doesn't delegitimize his hard work.

Edit: (Agree with your last part re: some people's attitudes though)
 
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MrWonka said:
They don't. That is just right wing propaganda that leads you to believe this. Paula may be able to succeed, but it is clearly much much much more difficult for her. What liberals want is for the government to do for poor people what at least an average lower middle class parent could easily afford to do for their child. By helping to make sure that nobody is starting out the race of life way way behind everyone else we increase the likelihood that the very best, and most talented people will actually succeed.

It's entirely possible that if Paula would have grown up in the same situation as Richard that she would have not only achieved the same success he did, but radically surpassed him. Meanwhile if Richard had grown up in the same situation as Paula he my have ended up in prison. There could be countless people just like Paula that are absolutely brilliant and have the next great idea that revolutionizes society for the better, but they're starting so far behind the rest of society they never reach a point where they can bring their ideas to fruition.

Stupid people always complain about the fact that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. They convince themselves that there are millions of lazy "wheels" out there who don't really need oil at all they're just squeaking to get rewarded. This is complete and total bull****. The reality is wheels squeak because they need oil, and ignoring them just wrecks your wagon.

Liberals simply realize that the whole point of a society is that we can achieve more as a team than we can as individuals. But like a professional sports team you can't just throw all your money at one player and ignore the rest. Tom Brady is obviously the most important player on the Patriots, but if you just keep throwing more and more money at him and ignored the offensive line or the defense then the Patriots would be terrible. It doesn't matter how good Brady is he couldn't carry the whole team by himself. A well run society should run like a good team. You give your stars enough to keep them from going to another team, but you have to invest in your bit players and your mid-level talent or your team will quickly go to ****.

Any decent leader knows that it doesn't matter how good your CEO is if he doesn't have good talent underneath him to execute his plans the business will fail. Conversely you can have a pretty ****ty CEO, but if he has a lot of good talent around him the company will probably be fine. Well the problem we are having in this country right now is we don't have enough mid-level talent. We have more Job openings available in America today than we have at any point in American history. The problem is that most of those jobs require skills that not enough American's have.

I'm a software developer and my company is having such a hard time finding decent IT people that they had no choice, but to open up an office in India. They didn't want to because the conference calls and the language barriers make it annoying, but we simply don't have the talent here in America because we're not investing in our children the way we should be. Republicans are making it so that only the wealth can afford the things their children need to succeed. They are dumping oil on wheels that aren't squeaking while letting the loudest wheel rust off the wagon.
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So basically had Paula went to school for software development and IT then she would have easily found a good job and not ended up as a waitress?
 
gdgyva said:
Why do so many liberals, and democrats disdain people who have had success?
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They don't.

They just believe that the people who benefited the most from a society should be the ones contributing the most to keep it up and running.

gdgyva said:
I applaud those that succeed,
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Regardless of what they actually did to achieve it?

gdgyva said:
I realize how hard it is to reach a certain level of success
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Not when you start with a massive head start like Trump did.

gdgyva said:
and even harder to maintain it
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Ummmm.... No....do you not know how compound interest works? If you have to spend money to make money doesn't that make having money the only way to make more money?

gdgyva said:
So stop looking down on those that are successful....they make our economy hum
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No, they don't actually. Consumers make the economy hum. That's why it's called a consumer based economy. Successful people benefit from the economy they don't create it.

gdgyva said:
they employ people
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They pay someone a small amount of money to create something worth way more than what they payed them, and then pay another person a small amount of money to sell it for them. They do almost no real work themselves. They just sit back and collect, and you think that they are the ones doing everyone else a favor?
 
Nap said:
So basically had Paula went to school for software development and IT then she would have easily found a good job and not ended up as a waitress?
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Yup, but she has to get into and be able to afford a school first. How's she going to pay for that?
 
Nap said:
So basically had Paula went to school for software development and IT then she would have easily found a good job and not ended up as a waitress?
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Or maybe if she didn't have to work a job whilst being at school (unlike Richard, who could devote his time to studying) she could have got the grades to not work as a waitress.

Or as a B student, maybe she needed slightly better grades, but her parents couldn't afford a tutor (unlike Richards) to get that little bump on her SAT's.

That's pretty explicitly spelt out in the comic, did you miss it?
 
Nilly said:
Disagree with your interpretation. You can see him studying in an upper panel. Richard may well have worked super hard to get where he is, it's just that there were less barriers to him to achieve what he did than for Paula. That doesn't delegitimize his hard work.
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I never said that he didn't work hard at all simply that he likely didn't work any harder than anybody else.

What I said was...

me said:
Richard goes around claiming that he worked hard for everything he's gotten and that nothing was ever given to him
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It's the AND part that's the bigger problem.

They justify their greed by acting like poor people don't need help, and then use themselves as an example of someone who made it without help ignoring the obvious reality that they had a ton of help.
 
DifferentDrummr said:
That's "beau-coo," you illiterate peon. :lamo
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I spelled it that way on purpose, phonetically. Actually, it's beaucoup. So, before you call someone an ignorant peon, you mighy want to make YOU know how to spell it properly.
 
TheGoverness said:
It is unwise to generalize (hey, that rhymed).
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MrWonka said:
I can only assume you have the same contempt for all those coal miners and other out of work white guys in the rust belt that gave Trump the edge. Make sure they know that they have no right to complain about their circumstances because if they just made intelligent personal decisions they would be doing just fine.
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Actually yes, I work in the auto industry. I didn't sit back and just hope I wouldn't get layed off. I prepared for the worst case scenario because I was aware that any time I could be out of a job.

The biggest problem in America is that too many people become complacent and do not strive to better themselves. I got my first job at 16 and worked at Walmart, it was absolutely bewildering to me that grown men and women were content working there for the rest of their lives.

I think the best example is the company I work for. Nissan provides education reimbursement to all employees. Very few take advantage of this, they are happy where they are and don't intend to move up from being a technician. If something happens and Nissan were to lay them off (Nissan has never layed off an American employee) due to some innovation that makes them require fewer technicians or they can no longer stay profitable here and decide to move the plant. If they are unable to find another job, the blame lands solely on the technicians that didn't take part in the opportunity provided. Even if the company you work for doesn't offer something like that, you should always be trying to move up and acquire as many skills and experience as possible to give yourself better opportunities in life.
 
MrWonka said:
Yup, but she has to get into and be able to afford a school first. How's she going to pay for that?
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Work for a company that provides free education

Join the military

Apply for scholarships

There are many ways to get a free education in this country.
 
Nilly said:
Or maybe if she didn't have to work a job whilst being at school (unlike Richard, who could devote his time to studying) she could have got the grades to not work as a waitress.

Or as a B student, maybe she needed slightly better grades, but her parents couldn't afford a tutor (unlike Richards) to get that little bump on her SAT's.

That's pretty explicitly spelt out in the comic, did you miss it?
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I never said Richard doesn't have an advantage, the problem is thinking that because she is at a disadvantage she has no way to succeed which is a lie.
 
MrWonka said:
It seems like I'm finding that so many of the disagreements that we have in the United States today break down along the same exact lines. Conservatives fail to grasp the incredibly enormous distinction between knocking someone off their high horse, and stomping them into the ground. The difference between taking someone down a peg, and kicking them when they are already on the ground. One is not only acceptably, but often times very necessary, the other is absolutely abhorrent. What at a cursory glance may seem like the same actions, tactics, or behaviors are judged radically differently depending on who is using them against who.

That doesn't mean it's a double standard it means that when you are in a position of power over someone you cannot blame them for using whatever means are at their disposal to defend themselves, but when you are the one who is dominating another person in every conceivable way to use cheap shots in order to further your dominance is completely out of line.

Conservatives simply cannot grasp this reality. In their minds letting their opponents stand up is equivalent to being knocked down themselves. Worse yet their opponent isn't even trying to fight them, it simply wants to stand up. They assume that if their opponent gets to equal footing with them then they will start doing the same things to them that they have been doing to their opponent for decades.

White Christian Men in our society have grown so accustom to their position of dominance that anything less than dominance over others is seen as an injury to them. How does one overcome this mental block and get through to these people?
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The fundamental problem with conservatives is that they merely accept their statistical position of dominance, instead of actively enforcing it, whether through legislation or gunpoint if necessary.

They need to stop letting their opponents stand up to begin with, and crush them beneath their heels before they even get a chance to.
 
Nap said:
Work for a company that provides free education
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Ahhh yes.....modern day indentured servitude.

Nap said:
Join the military
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Indentured servitude with the perks of potential death. Awesome!

Oh, and by the way Paula is a woman so the military as it stands only has so much use for her.

Nap said:
Apply for scholarships
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Well that's a lovely idea for those who are fortunate to get them, but pretty much everyone needs a college education in this day and age.

Nap said:
There are many ways to get a free education in this country.
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Well then what's the harm in having a few more? Think of all the money we could save corporate America if they didn't have to pay to train prospective employees only to have them bail on them once they have experience.
 
MrWonka said:
Ahhh yes.....modern day indentured servitude.


Indentured servitude with the perks of potential death. Awesome!

Oh, and by the way Paula is a woman so the military as it stands only has so much use for her.


Well that's a lovely idea for those who are fortunate to get them, but pretty much everyone needs a college education in this day and age.



Well then what's the harm in having a few more? Think of all the money we could save corporate America if they didn't have to pay to train prospective employees only to have them bail on them once they have experience.
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Actually, everyone doesn't need a college education.

Also, just because Paula is a woman doesn't change the fact the option is still there for her.

The obvious choice would be scholarships for her. As a woman she has more access to scholarships simply by being a woman.

Why do you take issue with a company providing education to it's employees?
 
Nap said:
The biggest problem in America is that too many people become complacent and do not strive to better themselves.
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Or maybe they just have a different idea of what it means to "better" themselves.

Nap said:
I got my first job at 16 and worked at Walmart, it was absolutely bewildering to me that grown men and women were content working there for the rest of their lives.
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Is it that they were content, or was it that they didn't feel as though they had much choice given their current situation?

Nap said:
I think the best example is the company I work for. Nissan provides education reimbursement to all employees. Very few take advantage of this
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So if you want to go major in woman's studies Nissan will pay for that huh? Or does it have to be something that benefits Nissan? How long do you have to work for Nissan before and after this reimbursement? Do you have to keep working your normal hours while you go to school or does it have to be night school?

You know that Nissan isn't an American company right?

Nap said:
Even if the company you work for doesn't offer something like that, you should always be trying to move up and acquire as many skills and experience as possible to give yourself better opportunities in life.
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And if you have children who need you at home? Sick family members?

Nap said:
The biggest problem in America is that too many people become complacent and do not strive to better themselves.
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You know you're partially right here, but the problem is that if all these people went to school and got decent educations they might turn into evil liberals. Is it possible that the reason so many men in this country don't go to school and get an education is because they've convinced themselves schooling is for nerds? Conservatives are telling Americans that if you send your kids to school they'll turn into atheists, feminazis, and communists. Fox News wants you to believe that all these liberal college professors and their safe spaces are poisoning children's minds. Could this have something to do with the refusal of so many Americans to "better" themselves?
 
MrWonka said:
Or maybe they just have a different idea of what it means to "better" themselves.


Is it that they were content, or was it that they didn't feel as though they had much choice given their current situation?


So if you want to go major in woman's studies Nissan will pay for that huh? Or does it have to be something that benefits Nissan? How long do you have to work for Nissan before and after this reimbursement? Do you have to keep working your normal hours while you go to school or does it have to be night school?

You know that Nissan isn't an American company right?



And if you have children who need you at home? Sick family members?



You know you're partially right here, but the problem is that if all these people went to school and got decent educations they might turn into evil liberals. Is it possible that the reason so many men in this country don't go to school and get an education is because they've convinced themselves schooling is for nerds? Conservatives are telling Americans that if you send your kids to school they'll turn into atheists, feminazis, and communists. Fox News wants you to believe that all these liberal college professors and their safe spaces are poisoning children's minds. Could this have something to do with the refusal of so many Americans to "better" themselves?
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I am on my way to work, will respond when I get a chance
 
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