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Our Habit of Calling Presidents Illegitimate

apdst said:
President Trump won the election according to the law of the land. That isn't a technicality.
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But, but, but the Russians duped tens of thousands of Democrats in Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania into voting for Trump.
 
ashurbanipal said:
For the record, I think Trump is legit. I wonder how much reflecting people on the right are doing over their own actions the last 8 years--calling Obama illegitimate became a national pass time.
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One thing has nothing to do with the other. And I don't know about you, but one thing I did learn as a child is that some people's bad behavior is not justification for me doing the same bad behavior. If you calling me a name is justification for me calling you a name, and everybody goes by that rule, we'll never get anywhere because all our time is taken up with name calling.
 
apdst said:
President Trump won the election according to the law of the land. That isn't a technicality.
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Not to the #neverTrumpers. Maybe if we can't lick 'em, we should join them?

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AnnaNoblesse said:
The cool thing is that America still has a peaceful transition of power regardless of how "illegitimate" a president is seen to be. Say what you want about president Obama but remember that he didn't try to hang on to power after Trump won. No martial law, no tanks in the streets, no troops seizing power. Just a bunch of mostly peaceful protests and now a new and radically different president than the previous one.
How many other governments would have used an interference by a foreign power as an excuse to not transfer power?
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If there were any of that in the US, yes, I understand that it's all to common in other parts of the world, there'd be a major populous uprising which would include both ends of the political spectrum, and frankly, the electorate have more guns and ammunition than the government. The government would lose. It may not lose right away, but it would lose in the end. This is my fervent belief.
 
Utility Man said:
donald-trump-tweets-2012-1478856552.jpg

:lamo
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Not a single trumposter can or will address what a hypocritical liar in chief we have now. They will tell you that they expect DEMs to behave better than GOPs did.

And now trump gets the deepest secrets of the entire world and we're told not to worry about his past behavior .
 
AlbqOwl said:
And in my opinion, thank goodness for that as we now have a President Trump who MIGHT actually accomplish some good things instead of a Hillary Clinton who campaigned on and almost certainly would have maintained an unacceptable status quo.
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Agreed. Here's perhaps an insight into Trump.
Swearing-in of White House Staff
President Trump and Vice President Pence spoke at a ceremony for the swearing-in of White House staff.
The president in his remarks previewed his schedule for the upcoming week, which included a visit in Washington with British Prime Minister Theresa May.
January 22, 2017
https://www.c-span.org/video/?422460-1/white-house-staff-sworn-vice-president-pence
. . . .
As I said during the inaugural address, this is not about party or ideology. This is about country, our country. It is about serving the American people.
[applause]

We are not here to help ourselves. We're here to devote ourselves to the national good. Public service is a high and great calling. It is our solemn duty to gather to protect the country, our country, this great, great country, to defend its workers and promote the well-being of all America.
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AlbqOwl said:
The fact is, had the Republicans elected MLK/Ghandi/Mother Teresa/George Washington/Abe Lincoln/name your favorite hero here all rolled into one, the person was born in Kansas, and won the popular vote and EC vote by a mile, the left would still declare him/her illegitimate.

On a very limited scale, it was done to Bill Clinton when he won the presidency with just 43% of the popular vote in 1992 and fewer than half of the 50 states, but he won a substantial EC vote victory.

Clinton won by a stronger margin in 1996 against a weak Bob Dole but still didn't get 50% of the vote. And still there were smatterings of 'illegitimate' President.'

George W. Bush was eviscerated and scorned as an illegitimate President in 2000 when he presumably narrowly lost the popular vote but won a narrow EC vote in a close election in 2000. The loud screams of 'selected not elected' because the SCOTUS stopped the Florida recount on the basis that it only involved counties likely to be favorable to Gore and therefore gave more protection for some ballots than others making it unconstitutional under the equal protection law. At that time the hand count had produced no significant changes in the election results favoring either candidate. But the 'illegitimate' presidency label hounded him for his entire eight years in office even though he easily won the popular vote and EC vote in 2004.

And of course there was the birth certificate controversy and 'illegitimate' President because he was born in Kenya theme that hounded Barack Obama for most of his eight years.

So I suppose it is our new reality. There will be no more Presidents deemed legitimate by all the Americans. And that is sad.
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Sad and divisive, yes indeed.
 
apdst said:
President Trump won the election according to the law of the land. That isn't a technicality.
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Dunno, but isn't it kinda 'false newsy' to call the EC just a 'technicality'. I mean it IS part of the constitution, and it HAS stood the test of time and all, and it HAS a legal established precedent. Much more than a mere technicality, in spite of whatever false memes some might try to promulgate.
 
eohrnberger said:
If there were any of that in the US, yes, I understand that it's all to common in other parts of the world, there'd be a major populous uprising which would include both ends of the political spectrum, and frankly, the electorate have more guns and ammunition than the government. The government would lose. It may not lose right away, but it would lose in the end. This is my fervent belief.
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The government would lose because our military would not turn on its own people. My father is retired from the army infantry. He says while the president is indeed commander and chief, his loyalty is to the U.S. constitution and the American people. He says no way would a large number of the military turn on the American people.
 
AnnaNoblesse said:
The government would lose because our military would not turn on its own people. My father is retired from the army infantry. He says while the president is indeed commander and chief, his loyalty is to the U.S. constitution and the American people. He says no way would a large number of the military turn on the American people.
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So even more so. Good. I'm glad to hear that. Do please thank your father for his service for me.

The fundamental being, Consent of the governed. Any of the following: "No martial law, no tanks in the streets, no troops seizing power. " is exactly not that.
 
AlbqOwl said:
One thing has nothing to do with the other.
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Really? Seem to be about the same to me.

AlbqOwl said:
And I don't know about you, but one thing I did learn as a child is that some people's bad behavior is not justification for me doing the same bad behavior. If you calling me a name is justification for me calling you a name, and everybody goes by that rule, we'll never get anywhere because all our time is taken up with name calling.
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I did learn that lesson as a child. I also learned something else when I was a child, which is that we have a name for unrepentant people who call "foul" when the shoe is on the other foot: we call them hypocrites. And until there is some genuine repentance, it's only letting yourself be turned into a doormat to give in to the moral demands of hypocrites.
 
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ashurbanipal said:
Really? Seem to be about the same to me.



I did learn that lesson as a child. I also learned something else when I was a child, which is that we have a name for unrepentant people who call "foul" when the shoe is on the other foot: we call them hypocrites. And until there is some genuine repentance, it's only letting yourself be turned into a doormat to give in to the moral demands of hypocrites.
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You didn't learn the lesson very well did you. :) But hope you have a good night and a good day tomorrow.
 
Illegitimate is a little too hoity-toity for me.

I call them Bastards.
 
ocean515 said:
LOL

Except one little thing. They don't reject the results. They don't call gun laws illegitimate. And from what I can tell, they don't refuse the principles related to religion and the government.

Your blanket statements won't change that.
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Bulll****, Trump was one of the BIGGEST rejecter or the results with Obama in 2012 and even said people should march on Washington and that the EC was a threat to democracy. Then add into it his birther **** he spouted for YEARS. Seriously you have no credibility.
 
AlbqOwl said:
You didn't learn the lesson very well did you.
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Or perhaps I learned it better than you. You may note that I am not guilty of calling Trump illegitimate. I have said that the time may come when we want to rethink the electoral college if the disparity between the popular vote and electoral vote grows enough--but that time is not now. And I have said that Trump is legitimate. He won fair and square...as did Obama.

It's rather hypocritical for folks who spent eight years calling Obama illegitimate to now demand that their guy be recognized as legitimate. It would be one thing if it were sincere. But frankly, I don't think your call, or anyone's call, for consensus on legitimacy is sincere at all. It is based on partisan, in-group thinking, and has nothing to do with any reasonable or balanced view of the issues. So if people are being unreasonable by calling Trump illegitimate (and I think they are), it's equally unreasonable to demand they stop. Which is the danger of going that route in the first place--it makes any action at all suddenly unreasonable, almost like a curse. It takes years, decades, to attain balance again. And as far as I can see, it started with conservatives, not liberals.

That said, I hope you have a nice day as well.
 
ashurbanipal said:
Or perhaps I learned it better than you. You may note that I am not guilty of calling Trump illegitimate. I have said that the time may come when we want to rethink the electoral college if the disparity between the popular vote and electoral vote grows enough--but that time is not now. And I have said that Trump is legitimate. He won fair and square...as did Obama.

It's rather hypocritical for folks who spent eight years calling Obama illegitimate to now demand that their guy be recognized as legitimate. It would be one thing if it were sincere. But frankly, I don't think your call, or anyone's call, for consensus on legitimacy is sincere at all. It is based on partisan, in-group thinking, and has nothing to do with any reasonable or balanced view of the issues. So if people are being unreasonable by calling Trump illegitimate (and I think they are), it's equally unreasonable to demand they stop. Which is the danger of going that route in the first place--it makes any action at all suddenly unreasonable, almost like a curse. It takes years, decades, to attain balance again. And as far as I can see, it started with conservatives, not liberals.

That said, I hope you have a nice day as well.
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You spent eight years with numbnuts calling Barack Obama illegitimate.
I spent eight years with numbnuts calling George W. Bush illegitimate.

In both cases it was stupid. And calling Donald Trump illegitimate is stupid too.

President Trump is neither partisan nor ideologue. He doesn't give a diddly squat whether somebody is Republican or Democrat or some political party from Mars. He is unconventional, not politically correct, not establishment, and has the same opinion of the permanent political class that has controlled the government for decades now that I do. And he fully sees why so many good, hard working, honorable Americans are frustrated and angry and spoke to that as nobody has done in a very long time.

That is why he is President. That is why he was elected.

So yes, I am willing to shrug off the petty, snarky, hateful, mean spirited, sore losers as nothing more than that, and give the new President a chance. And I will keep calling out those who expect him to fail. Who want him to fail. Those who really have an honest beef with what he is doing, and criticize it based on honest criteria, I won't fault anybody for doing that. I will as well.

He might let us down and if he does, I won't be admiring him for that. But if he can do even some of what he has pledged to do, I honestly believe we will all be so much better off. And I will be able to die knowing that my children and the generations that follow them will have a country as great as the one I was born into. I see it all as much bigger than Donald Trump, much bigger than any individual. And all the stupid nitpicking still going on is just that. Stupid.
 
Praxas said:
Bulll****, Trump was one of the BIGGEST rejecter or the results with Obama in 2012 and even said people should march on Washington and that the EC was a threat to democracy. Then add into it his birther **** he spouted for YEARS. Seriously you have no credibility.
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:lamo

Umm. The conversation was about the left and right. You might want to protect your own credibility before proving you don't have any.
 
ocean515 said:
:lamo

Umm. The conversation was about the left and right. You might want to protect your own credibility before proving you don't have any.
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Trump IS the right. That's who you guys elected to represent you.
 
ocean515 said:
Lot's of Democrats and Independents voted for Trump. You are the one with no credibility. Perhaps you should work on that.
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Yes and you can be a right leaning dem as well. Trump represents the right, you own him, he's yours. I can understand the embarrassment from you that he represents you though. I would be too. Suck it up.
 
Praxas said:
Yes and you can be a right leaning dem as well. Trump represents the right, you own him, he's yours. I can understand the embarrassment from you that he represents you though. I would be too. Suck it up.
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I might have to remind you that this was the very same frame of thought that the left had against Trump during the campaign (and even the Pubs themselves had during the primaries). The left even crossed party lines in the primaries in order to help Trump get elected and laughed hilariously at Trump becoming the nominee. Everyone was foaming at the mouths thanking God for their good fortune that Trump was the Republican nominee. Hillary and Kaine were popping the corks even on election day. There was no need for Hillary to even write a concession speech. And, what happened next?
 
Moderate Right said:
I might have to remind you that this was the very same frame of thought that the left had against Trump during the campaign (and even the Pubs themselves had during the primaries). The left even crossed party lines in the primaries in order to help Trump get elected and laughed hilariously at Trump becoming the nominee. Everyone was foaming at the mouths thanking God for their good fortune that Trump was the Republican nominee. Hillary and Kaine were popping the corks even on election day. There was no need for Hillary to even write a concession speech. And, what happened after that?
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Trump represents the right and you. Nuff said
 
Praxas said:
Trump represents the right and you. Nuff said
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If you don't wake up as to why even Democrats voted for Trump, you are doomed to have several more bad elections. You really can't afford to sink much lower. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Trump campaigns a lot in California in 2020. Jerry Brown is really making a fool out of himself.
 
Praxas said:
Yes and you can be a right leaning dem as well. Trump represents the right, you own him, he's yours. I can understand the embarrassment from you that he represents you though. I would be too. Suck it up.
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Praxas said:
Trump represents the right. Own it, you guys support him he's yours. Trump is the purebred right.
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Trump's political lethality is in his crossover appeal to labor. This leads to some decisions the right dislikes (abandonment of TPP) and some the right applauds (restarting Dakota and Keystone pipelines). The right can live with this because he's bringing in new voters. The danger for the left is mortal.
 
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