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conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

Nope.

Clinton produced a surplus. Bush 43 burned right through it, and his policies -- namely, cutting taxes while waging two major wars (who does that?!?), adding Medicare Part D -- combined with revenue shortfalls caused by a major recession, produced record deficits.

As the economy recovered, and revenues got back to normal, and we could pull back on the stimulus and war spending, and with a tiny tax hike towards the end, yes deficits dropped to a more normal level.

Now, Trump's policies are set to send deficits rocketing back up again. He isn't going to cut Social Security or Medicare, two of the most expensive federal programs. He wants to increase defense spending, another huge program. He isn't going to cut VA spending, in fact he'll have to increase it if he wants to reduce wait times. Right off the bat, Trump refuses to cut or plans to increase spending for 70% of the federal budget.

Further, his plan is to slash income and corporate taxes, which will cause another drop in revenues. Based on his current plans, he could add $5 trillion or more to the current debt.

So. Can we put you down, on record, as someone who objects to high levels of both deficit spending and debt?

The debt went up every year under Clinton so what " surplus " would you be refering too ?
 
Perhaps you should cite the evidence.

Note that an editorial with a bunch of rhetorical statements doesn't qualify.

You libs are all the same. I and others have cited evidence on many things in many threads and you libs dismiss it, often claiming that no evidence was cited in the first place. That is your M.O. of winning arguments. Only your cherry picked facts are accepted as evidence. We have many threads with thousands of pages of you guys doing the same thing over and over and over. I'm not playing the game of putting up evidence that has already been submitted many times over.
 
You libs are all the same. I and others have cited evidence on many things in many threads and you libs dismiss it, often claiming that no evidence was cited in the first place. That is your M.O. of winning arguments. Only your cherry picked facts are accepted as evidence. We have many threads with thousands of pages of you guys doing the same thing over and over and over. I'm not playing the game of putting up evidence that has already been submitted many times over.

The findings of President Bush 2's own working group aren't "cherry picked facts".
 
The findings of President Bush 2's own working group aren't "cherry picked facts".

We've been over this like a kazillion times. As I said, you guys dismiss everyone else's facts but your own and then claim that you won the debate.
 
Here's a crazy idea eric, why not respond to the thread topic in an honest and intelligent fashion.
Did you even read the article?
Here is the first sentence:
For decades, congressional Republicans have pushed to slash the budget and reduce the size of the federal government
What a howler. Are you not aware that Republicans (And Democrats) have greatly increased the debt. That sentence alone makes anything that follows suspect as the writer seems to have lost a sense of reality.
I have been opposed to deficit spending as long as I remember. Don't like the tax cuts and spending under Bush43 anymore than Obama's.
Just would like some hint that you understand the lunacy of your post.
 
Did you even read the article?
Here is the first sentence:

What a howler. Are you not aware that Republicans (And Democrats) have greatly increased the debt. That sentence alone makes anything that follows suspect as the writer seems to have lost a sense of reality.
I have been opposed to deficit spending as long as I remember. Don't like the tax cuts and spending under Bush43 anymore than Obama's.
Just would like some hint that you understand the lunacy of your post.

Its quite telling that you cant respond to the thread topic yet had an emotional need to post. Try to focus Eric, the point of the thread is not the imaginary agenda of republicans. The point of the thread is not your opinion of deficits. Now read this slowly, the point of the thread is that Ryan’s comments prove republicans were lying to you about debt and deficits the last 8 years and you and yours can no longer deny it. Lets review:

In a growing economy and UE low, Ryan now admits the way to reduce the deficit is to grow the economy. We were telling you that for 8 years even when the economy was cratering at -8.2% of GDP and losing 600,000 jobs a month. But your conservative masters told you the President was born in Kenya, wanted to kill old people and the stimulus would destroy life on earth. Yea, your conservative masters whipped you into a frenzy of deluded panic and hate. And your conservative masters took advantage of that and tried to sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery for their political gain.

So eric, feel free to respond to the thread topic. Or feel free to explain “the lunacy” of my post remembering I’m quoting Ryan to prove what flaming lying hypocrites republicans are on debt and deficits.
 
We've been over this like a kazillion times. As I said, you guys dismiss everyone else's facts but your own and then claim that you won the debate.

wow, a kazillion? I cant argue with those facts.
 
Sure, there was indisputable proof that republicans and the conservative media was lying to them about deficits. But like a love struck girl, conservatives continually denied the facts. they always had their debt hero Paul Ryan there to keep the fantasy going. here's what he had to say Tuesday

“One of the things that we’re focusing on is getting people back to work, is economic growth,” Ryan told reporters Tuesday. “You can’t ever balance the budget if you don’t get this economy growing.”

GOP concerns about deficits, debt disappear in Trump era | The Seattle Times

mmmm, what was wrong with that focus when 600,000 people were losing their jobs each month at the peak of the Great Bush Recession? oh yea, the President was a democrat. Just more proof republicans put their political agenda ahead of the American people.

Debt has never been the problem. It is what you go in debt for that is the problem.

Paying people not to work is bad debt and a problem. Building a highway system that makes a country prosperous is good debt and a solution to a problem. Paying people to build rock walls with no purpose is stupid debt. Building the Hoover Dam that is still providing water, electricity, and tourism to millions of people in multiple cities as well as a multi billion dollar farming industry is great debt.

If I go in debt to purchase a home so I have a place to live the rest of my life that is good debt. If I go the same amount in debt gambling, drinking and doing drugs that is bad debt.

Our government needs to eliminate bad debt not all debt.
 
Debt has never been the problem. It is what you go in debt for that is the problem.

Paying people not to work is bad debt and a problem. Building a highway system that makes a country prosperous is good debt and a solution to a problem. Paying people to build rock walls with no purpose is stupid debt. Building the Hoover Dam that is still providing water, electricity, and tourism to millions of people in multiple cities as well as a multi billion dollar farming industry is great debt.

If I go in debt to purchase a home so I have a place to live the rest of my life that is good debt. If I go the same amount in debt gambling, drinking and doing drugs that is bad debt.

Our government needs to eliminate bad debt not all debt.

PW, that is a perfectly reasonable response except for one thing, you're not responding to my post. This thread is not about "good debt vs bad debt". Its about the fact that republicans and the conservative media lied about debt and deficits for 8 years. Democrats tried to tell you we needed to grow our way out of deficits but you and yours would have none of it. Don't forget, 8 years ago you were told President Obama was born in kenya, wanted to kill old people and debt would destroy us all. And now that we have a republican president, Ryan says we have to grow the economy. You just don't get to ignore this flaming hypocrisy.

And PW, here's why the republicans lying is significant. Republicans obstructed things that would have helped the economy and they attacked things that did. They used you and yours irrational fear of a debt and a secret Kenyan muslim terrorist to sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery for their political gain. Average Americans suffered and suffered longer because republicans put their agenda ahead of America. That's the thread topic.
 
That about says it all.

oh MR, I've already proven your dishonesty in this thread and you've already proven it too. You don't have to prove it again.
 
oh MR, I've already proven your dishonesty in this thread and you've already proven it too. You don't have to prove it again.

Oh Vernie, Sorry, but I have to get in line behind you when it comes to dishonesty.
 
It isn't that the Republicans don't care about deficits. They just care about their re-election chances more and that has been the case for some time now.
...and that adds up to not caring about deficits when a Republican is President.

We saw it with Reagan, Bush 41 and Bush 43. We also saw Obama get torn to shreds by Republicans over the huge deficits... even though they were caused by Bush starting two wars while cutting taxes -- who does that?!? -- along with starting Medicare Part D without negotiating power, and the recession. We see it in repeated and often misleading denials that Bill Clinton presided over a budget surplus.

By the way, I disagree that Bush 41 lost the election because he signed a small tax increase -- that's a myth perpetuated by the rabid anti-tax wing of the Republican Party (aka "The Republican Party"). At the risk of oversimplifying, he lost because a) the economy was in a recession, b) Clinton was far more charismatic, and c) Perot likely drew more support from Bush 41 than from Clinton.

And now, we're going to see Trump propose policies that will create enormous deficits. I suspect some Republicans will care, but it's not clear if they will care enough to vote against a big fat tax cut for the rich, or repealing ACA taxes (mostly on the rich), and/or cross Trump on infrastructure spending.


And the truth is, we the people aren't keen on any spending cuts in our social security checks or cuts in government services we depend on or anything else that affects us directly. We sure think they ought to cut spending everywhere else though.
In the abstract, most people want spending cuts. When asked what people actually want cut, the answer is usually "almost nothing." The only thing people want to cut is foreign aid, which is only 1% of the budget.

2-22-13-99.png



Republicans have basically decided that they want to cut taxes, and don't want to cut programs, so they wind up borrowing massive sums -- or in Bush 43's case, creating enormous liabilities for his successor.


For me it is not cutting spending on those things people have to have. Where the spending cuts must come is in the enormous bureaucracy, government infrastructure, duplication, and black holes where nobody really knows where the money is going.
Yeah, there's a little problem with that. Namely, we know where almost all of it goes.

total_spending_pie%2C__2015_enacted.png



Everything except for the DoD / covert "black budgets" are extensively reported. Every department is required by law to explain its budget requests. Yes, it's a pain to sort through it all, but every dollar of spending is publicly accounted for.

FYI, 80% of the budget is Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, unemployment, DoD, interest on the debt, and the VA. I'm sure there are some inefficiencies in those programs, but you're not going to slash the federal budget in half by rooting them out. And good luck to any President who says "I'm going to slash Social Security and Medicare and the Defense Department and VA."
 
In late 2004 Bush introduced a bill to reform Freddy and Fanny. After a year and a half it made it through the Senate Banking Finance Committee only to be filibustered and killed by Chris Dodd. After that the 2008 Crash was inevitable.

2008 crash not caused by bad CRA Loans bundled by Freddy and Fanny? Not even Paul Krugman claims this. What do you get out go lying?
Fail

Fannie, Freddie and You - The New York Times
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/09/21/fannie-freddie-further/

Dear GOP: Fannie, Freddie Did Not Cause the Financial Crisis | Mother Jones
http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/09/housing_markets_3
For the Last Time, Fannie and Freddie Didn't Cause the Housing Crisis - The Atlantic
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...se-the-housing-crisis/?utm_term=.5c7061926923
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/article24504598.html
 
I hope you had to spend a lot of time putting this together. I'm not even going to bother destroying it.
Since you missed it, I gave a nice, quick, fact-based explanation of why the GSEs didn't cause the crisis. You have zero facts to back up your claims. What a surprise.
 
PW, that is a perfectly reasonable response except for one thing, you're not responding to my post. This thread is not about "good debt vs bad debt".

When you talk about my government running up trillions and trillions of dollars worth of debt I want to know what we are getting for all this debt. Name the great projects Obama and congress built with all this money. 10 trillion dollars would pay 10 million people $100,000.00 a year for 10 years. What do we have to show for all that money. Did we build another highway system or railroad across this country? What great asset do we have to show for all that money?

Its about the fact that republicans and the conservative media lied about debt and deficits for 8 years.

So they lied too us and their was no debt. Really. Obama balanced the budget just like he promised and I got some unicorns to sell you real cheap.

Democrats tried to tell you we needed to grow our way out of deficits but you and yours would have none of it.

Really. Didn't I just say I have no problem with debt as long as I have something to show for it. What did we build? High speed rail connecting the major cities of our country? What does my country have to show for all this debt?

Don't forget, 8 years ago you were told President Obama was born in kenya, wanted to kill old people and debt would destroy us all. And now that we have a republican president,

I voted for Obama and could care less where he was born or most of anything our corrupt lying media has to say. Sooner or later this debt will destroy our country if we continue to have nothing to show for it.

Ryan says we have to grow the economy. You just don't get to ignore this flaming hypocrisy.

What hypocrisy? He is right we do need to grow the economy. What I now want to know is what he is going to spend trillions of dollars on that will grow our economy.

And PW, here's why the republicans lying is significant. Republicans obstructed things that would have helped the economy and they attacked things that did. They used you and yours irrational fear of a debt and a secret Kenyan muslim terrorist to sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery for their political gain. Average Americans suffered and suffered longer because republicans put their agenda ahead of America. That's the thread topic.

What are you talking about. First I don't care about going in debt. Hell we went trillions in debt under Obama. I want to know what I spent trillions of dollars on and what I have to show for it.

I know we have a bunch of well paid bankers flying around in their private jets getting multi-million dollar bonuses for screwing up. I know we have close to 40 million criminals in this country illegally, undermining any possibility of a livable wage, and everything our parent and grandparents worked for. Our young men and women are still dying and being crippled in the Middle East.
 
er uh casca, I couldn't help but notice you called me "either an idiot or one hell of a reckless liar" and then instead of explaining why you went off on some tangent. So casca, that's now two points you've made that you don't seem to think you need to back up. So do you think you could try to explain what I've posted that upsets you so or will this be another thing you don't have to back up or explain because you're special?


you're not responding to my point. Yes, they lied to you but they used those lies to sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery. The reason you "misparaphrase" it as only "they lied" is because you don't want to acknowledge your conservative masters put their political agenda above that of average Americans. They let people suffer and suffer longer and you and yours cheered them on.


you should try to understand simple concepts before working your way up to just slightly less simple concepts. Focus on the fact that your conservative masters put their political agenda above that of average Americans.

Nice try, But any honest 3rd person viewing our debate will see that you lost. That is who I'm trying to convince, not you. Bye
 
Petherick is a better description of this guy than Bully.

This is type of dishonest fantastic who will never admit he is wrong.

casca, "wah wah you're wrong" does not prove me wrong. It only proves you're a whiner. You've done nothing but cowardly deflect from the points I've made and proven. If you are incapable of having an honest and intelligent conversation about the thread topic or anything then you shouldn't be in a debate forum.


Nice try, But any honest 3rd person viewing our debate will see that you lost. That is who I'm trying to convince, not you. Bye

casca, you stated I was ""either an idiot or one hell of a reckless liar". I asked you to explain that. And you cowardly deflect with "wah wah I won". When it comes time for conservatives to choose narrative or integrity, they again chose narrative.
 
When you talk about my government running up trillions and trillions of dollars worth of debt I want to know what we are getting for all this debt. Name the great projects Obama and congress built with all this money. 10 trillion dollars would pay 10 million people $100,000.00 a year for 10 years. What do we have to show for all that money. Did we build another highway system or railroad across this country? What great asset do we have to show for all that money?

So they lied too us and their was no debt. Really. Obama balanced the budget just like he promised and I got some unicorns to sell you real cheap.

Really. Didn't I just say I have no problem with debt as long as I have something to show for it. What did we build? High speed rail connecting the major cities of our country? What does my country have to show for all this debt?
I voted for Obama and could care less where he was born or most of anything our corrupt lying media has to say. Sooner or later this debt will destroy our country if we continue to have nothing to show for it.
What hypocrisy? He is right we do need to grow the economy. What I now want to know is what he is going to spend trillions of dollars on that will grow our economy.

What are you talking about. First I don't care about going in debt. Hell we went trillions in debt under Obama. I want to know what I spent trillions of dollars on and what I have to show for it.

I know we have a bunch of well paid bankers flying around in their private jets getting multi-million dollar bonuses for screwing up. I know we have close to 40 million criminals in this country illegally, undermining any possibility of a livable wage, and everything our parent and grandparents worked for. Our young men and women are still dying and being crippled in the Middle East.

now that's the deflecting incoherent "misparaphrasing" pile of crap I expected from you. And again, you're not responding to my posts. PW, I clearly explained the "hypocrisy". its no shock to me that you either don't understand or pretend not to. so I'm going to explainit again, special just for you.

Republicans and the conservative media whipped you and yours into a constant state of hate and fear concerning debt and deficits. They said we needed to cut spending to lower the deficit. Democrats said we needed to get the economy growing again (thanks to the Great Bush Recession, the economy was cratering at -8.2% GDP and losing 600,000 jobs a month) and grow the deficit smaller. In addition to conservatives literally running around foaming at the mouth about debt and deficits, you were also screaming the president was born in kenya and he wanted to kill old people. Republicans took advantage of your delusional state of fear and hate and obstructed things that would have helped grow the economy. And now Ryan says we need to grow the economy.

Now read this slowly. Republicans tried to sabotage the economy and undermine the recovery for their political gain. Average Americas suffered and suffered longer because of their disgusting in-American policies. And you and yours cheered them on. If you are incapable of responding to these facts, don't respond.
 
LOL no they haven't, that's a pure LIE right there.

The GOP has grumbled throughout the entire Obama Administration that this has been the weakest recovery since WW2. That there has been basically no economic growth.
 
Athan, I didn't ask you post more theories and beliefs. I asked you to back up "The GOP has argued that which Ryan said, for years. Grow the economy". Now somewhere in your rambling post you seem to allude to maybe someone in the GOP coulda sorta said it in the 80s. We were not discussing the 80s. We're discussing the last 8 years. the last 8 years, conservatives were whipped into a state of panic about debt and deficits. They were told and obediently believed we had to cut spending. Republicans attacked things that would have helped the economy and their ignorant base cheered them on.

and Athan, in the 80s they were telling their ignorant base that tax cuts pay for themselves. So they weren't having an honest discussion about debt back then either. But again, we're not discussing the 80s. We're discussing the last 8 years.

I guess I remain in a state of shock Vern. To suggest that the Republicans never said to grow the economy... I mean, let's get real.
 
The GOP lied about the Deficit? Are you F**king kidding?

The Deficit is the annual budget shortfall that creates the National Debt, and Obama has increased the National Debt more than all the prior 43 Presidents combined.

Yet Dems use phony numbers to claim he cut the deficit in half, leaving out that he quadrupled it just before that.


The bold is incorrect.....

When a new President takes office in late January he is bound,by law, to execute the budget he inherits until his own budget takes effect 9 months later after his first budget proposal has been reviewed and passed.. Therefore,the only rational way to tally debt is by the budgets a President proposes.

https://www.thebalance.com/national-debt-under-obama-3306293
 
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