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Thread: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The economic indicators in late October were not appreciably different from today, and pointed to the conditions we have today, yet he prescribed years -- YEARS -- of deficit spending to come. He'd still be saying it right now if Hillary were the president-elect.

    The only thing he's "consistent" in is that he does about-faces when the White House changes hands. THAT, he does shamelessly.
    Oh, now i get it, you didn't read your own article, you just jumped to a desired conclusion. Well, here read this if you're willing to burst the bubble:

    "Now, government borrowing can still be justified if it serves an important purpose: Interest rates are still very low, and borrowing at those low rates to invest in much-needed infrastructure is still a very good idea, both because it would raise productivity and because it would provide a bit of insurance against future downturns. But while candidate Trump talked about increasing public investment, there’s no sign at all that congressional Republicans are going to make such investment a priority.

    No, they’re going to blow up the deficit mainly by cutting taxes on the wealthy. And that won’t do anything significant to boost the economy or create jobs. In fact, by crowding out investment it will somewhat reduce long-term economic growth. Meanwhile, it will make the rich richer, even as cuts in social spending make the poor poorer and undermine security for the middle class. But that, of course, is the intention."

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    Or, he's both an excellent economist and a populist liberal.

    Not much different than Milton Friedman, who was a brilliant in his economic insights, and kind of an idiot when it came to his libertarian fetish.

    Meanwhile, Krugman's comments are consistent. When unemployment is too high (and we're in a liquidity trap), deficits are not a problem. We're stimulating and lending our way out of a recession, and thus getting the economy back on track faster. But when you're at full employment, as we probably are now, then running huge deficits for stimulus programs (such as a big infrastructure program) doesn't offer economic benefits. Further, much of the increase in deficits will not be spent fixing problems, but will go to tax cuts for the wealthy -- and that does very little for the economy.

    Krugman's major objection is that Trump et al are basically taking advice from people who have been consistently wrong for decades -- Laffer, supply siders and the like. Even if we can handle bigger deficits and debts (which we can), that doesn't mean that increasing our liabilities without any benefits to the economy is a good idea.

    Figuring that out actually requires reading what he has to say, with an open mind. Who has time for that, amirite?
    Actually, there need be no liquidity trap for there to be unemployment. A sudden increase in the supply of labor will do the trick and you will face unemployment till the pile has found enough capital to make jobs. This is part of the travers we are in.

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post


    Wrong. There were multiple years of genuine surpluses under Clinton. Revenues were greater than outlays. By any definition, that is a surplus.

    The public debt -- the amount borrowed from the public, and the measure that pretty much everyone uses -- dropped slightly during those deficit years.

    The gross debt -- which includes intergovernmental loans -- did continue to go up. However, that's because when payroll taxes run a surplus, the government is required by law to lend those funds to the rest of the government. I.e. when payroll taxes run a surplus, gross debt increases. Further, when we draw down from the Social Security trust fund, gross debt can shrink, even though Social Security is in a more precarious position.

    Gross debt is a valid measure. However, a) only if you use it as a consistent measure, and b) only when you actually understand how it works. It's not valid when the only reason to cite it is to blast Democrats, and/or obscure how Republican political leaders don't actually give a crap about shrinking government or reducing debts.
    those surpluses were the result of the trickle down economics and policies pushed by the REP. controlled Congress and prio radministrations, not by ANY effort of Bill Clinton. They happened in spite of him, not because of him.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    They are soo evil!
    Don't forget that they not only fight wars overseas but they fight wars against women, the poor, seniors, minorities, and they are racists and bigots too, among other things. How much more evil can they get? And yet their nominee still beat Hillary and they are in control of the House, the Senate, and most governorships and state houses.

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Absentglare View Post
    You seem incredibly confused, the left is not claiming that deficits matter, the left is condemning the abject hypocrisy of the right as they immediately flip flop on deficits based on the party of the president.
    Republicans have a very long way to go to catch up with the hypocrisy of the left.

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    ...and I just briefly explained how that isn't correct either. You're being equally inaccurate in your attempts to correct someone else.

    Yes, Congress had a role -- I forgot to mention that the repeal of Glass-Steagall was a big factor. But Congress didn't act alone; someone had to sign those laws, let alone guide them through Congress.

    Clinton, Bush 43, Greenspan also a variety of influences and responsibility. But overall, the government piece was relatively small. It was mostly market mechanisms, of capital looking for somewhere to go, then forming a bubble, then the private sector pumping it up to get their piece. Most of the government's responsibility is in a failure to regulate.
    And what makes your explanations any better than those of others?

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    ...and I just briefly explained how that isn't correct either. You're being equally inaccurate in your attempts to correct someone else.

    Yes, Congress had a role -- I forgot to mention that the repeal of Glass-Steagall was a big factor. But Congress didn't act alone; someone had to sign those laws, let alone guide them through Congress.

    Clinton, Bush 43, Greenspan also a variety of influences and responsibility. But overall, the government piece was relatively small. It was mostly market mechanisms, of capital looking for somewhere to go, then forming a bubble, then the private sector pumping it up to get their piece. Most of the government's responsibility is in a failure to regulate.
    It wasn't the laws that the incoming Dem. controlled Congress passed, it was the fact that they were going to take control of Congress. The market does not trust a Dem. Congress, since it's much more anti-business than the market is comfortable with. It saw the change coming and pulled back. Had it been Pres. Bush, the recession would have started far sooner, but it didn't. The market saw the Dems. coming and it took cover. All the stuff you brought up had a place in this, but the first domino was the market contraction. When that happened, it opened the door to a whole lot of other issues that had either been masked by the up market or only came about when the market contracted. It's like sailing a ship onto the rocks and blaming the lack of accurate maps, lack of dredging, poor markers, etc, but until the water level dropped, none of that mattered. Yes, it all existed, but as long as the water was high, their danger was hidden or non-existent. But when that water dropped, suddenly all those problems got exposed.
    Our nation has not always lived up to its ideals, yet those ideals have never ceased to guide us. They expose our flaws, and lead us to mend them. We are the beneficiaries of the work of the generations before us and it is each generation's responsibility to continue that work. - Laura Bush

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moderate Right View Post
    Don't forget that they not only fight wars overseas but they fight wars against women, the poor, seniors, minorities, and they are racists and bigots too, among other things. How much more evil can they get? And yet their nominee still beat Hillary and they are in control of the House, the Senate, and most governorships and state houses.
    They must be doing something right, I guess.

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Visbek View Post
    The gross debt -- which includes intergovernmental loans -- did continue to go up. However, that's because when payroll taxes run a surplus, the government is required by law to lend those funds to the rest of the government. I.e. when payroll taxes run a surplus, gross debt increases. Further, when we draw down from the Social Security trust fund, gross debt can shrink, even though Social Security is in a more precarious position.
    The gross debt does not increase unless you spend that surplus, which is what happened.

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    Re: conservatives can no longer deny they've been lied to about deficits.

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful_servant View Post
    ..and once again, a liberal ignores the FACT that it was a response to a DEM. Congress that triggered the last recession. But that's just truth and if the truth doesn't match the narrative, go with the narrative - right???
    FS, nobody asked about your delusions concerning the causes of the Great Bush Recession. This thread is about the fact that no matter how much you try, you can no longer deny your conservative masters lied to you about debt and deficits. See how you're trying to deflect with your "finger pointing" about an unrelated issue. Please address the thread topic that the one person you could always count on to tell you what you wanted to hear about debt and deficits just confirmed everything every democrat tried to tell you the last 8 years.
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