Democrats - Quit Whining. Trump's victory IS you fault. Own up to it.

1) Let's start with the candidates themselves. Yes, Trump is a vile and despicable human being. So what was your answer to him? Another vile and despicable human being. You ran a flawed candidate.

2) But here is the most important aspect of your failure - Your voters just didn't show up. This is the difference between Democratic and Republican voters. Republicans are willing to walk through 40 foot snowdrifts and stand in line for as long as necessary in order to vote. Democrats? Not so much. This is why apathy generally costs Democrats in midterm elections (2006 being a rare exception), and apathy among the Democrats helped put Trump in power. Sure, Russia helped sway opinion in this election, but in the key states which put Trump in power (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) Democrats turned out in lower numbers than they did in 2012. Did they think they didn't need to bother voting because "Hillary had this in the bag"? That's part of it, but most of it is that Republicans see voting as a duty while Democrats see voting as an inconvenience to be exercised only when necessary. That's just my take on this.

3) Also important - Republicans are ruthless, and Democrats are wimps. I'll leave it at that.

Democrats are pointing at Trump, Trump supporters, Russia, and even a partridge in a pear tree to justify why they lost. What they refuse to acknowledge is that they themselves had just as big of a hand in losing as Trump, Trump supporters, and Russia did. When Obama was in power, Democrats complained that Republicans answered "But Obama" to every criticism against them. But aren't Democrats doing the same thing? "But Trump" and "But Russia" is what I am hearing these days. Gee, it's the same thing you accused Republicans of while Obama was in office.

Man up. You own this too.

Discussion?

The "whining" has to do with the heavily tainted electoral college that is hated across the spectrum. Trump did just as much whining in 2012. Unless you're willing to concede that, you get any concessions in return

How little support trump had within his own party. All thru the primary, he was the last candidate any of the establishment wanted. So the republicans hardly get to boast, when 9/10 of their own candidates were total **** and no diff from hillary

Your exaggerations as to republican solidarity is absurd as well. Turnout was **** period - 45% of voting age didn't turn up. Also republicans do everything possible to make sure the young and working class and especially minorities can't vote. It's like blaming someone for a problem you caused

danarhea said:

3) Also important - Republicans are ruthless, and Democrats are wimps. I'll leave it at that.

Click to expand...

Well, we agree on one thing. Until Democrats learn to play by the same rules the GOP plays by - and then is willing to repeatedly break them to gain any advantage - they will continue to end up getting screwed.

chromium said:

The "whining" has to do with the heavily tainted electoral college that is hated across the spectrum. Trump did just as much whining in 2012. Unless you're willing to concede that, you get any concessions in return

Click to expand...

I bet you a penny and a fiddle of gold, that if Hillary Clinton had won the election instead, almost none of the people who are whining about the Electoral College, would be.

haymarket said:

Well, we agree on one thing. Until Democrats learn to play by the same rules the GOP plays by - and then is willing to repeatedly break them to gain any advantage - they will continue to end up getting screwed.

Click to expand...

What rules did Republicans break? And why do you say they'll CONTINUE to get screwed? They just got off an eight-year run. Or do you think they should win every election forever?

MaggieD said:

What rules did Republicans break? And why do you say they'll CONTINUE to get screwed? They just got off an eight-year run. Or do you think they should win every election forever?

Click to expand...

How about getting into bed with our longtime international enemy and using information from our international enemy to win?

How about having one of yours engage in politicking in violation of the Hatch Act and longstanding FBI policy?

haymarket said:

How about getting into bed with our longtime international enemy and using information from our international enemy to win?

How about having one of yours engage in politicking in violation of the Hatch Act and longstanding FBI policy?

Click to expand...

Ohhh, you buy the Putin nonsense. And just what information do you assert he used to win?

Help me on the Hatch Act. What's that about?

Third, this was the first presidential election since conservatives on the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act, which allowed Republican-controlled states to pass a series of measures meant to suppress the votes of those who were likely to vote Democratic, particularly African Americans, Latinos and college students. In some of those states on which Trump built his victories, Republican-designed voter suppression laws, including ID mandates, limits on early voting and a reduction in polling locations, seem to have had their intended effect. As Ari Berman noted:


And the Trump campaign itself had an explicit strategy to demoralize Democrats, developed by Trump campaign CEO Stephen Bannon. As Bloomberg Businessweek reported two weeks ago:


How much credit they can take is open to debate, but there’s no doubt that they got the result they were after.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...voter-turnout-plunged/?utm_term=.5c7a393e9883

I would add that Republicans are damn good at staying home too when their party's candidate doesn't suit them - just look at 2012. I'd say that if Trump ran in 2012, Obama wouldn't have won because more evangelical Christians would have come out to support him - they can support a lying, cheating, misogynistic, racist divorcee, but damned if they're going to go to any trouble to elect a Mormon.

I'd also add that the Democrats tend to attract the glassy eyed idealist young and naïve to their party - the ones who haven't known life outside of a classroom yet - and when it was proven that the DNC screwed their candidate, Bernie Sanders, they became totally disillusioned, and those are the types who stayed home but who came out for Obama in his two elections.

Gimmesometruth said:

Third, this was the first presidential election since conservatives on the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act, which allowed Republican-controlled states to pass a series of measures meant to suppress the votes of those who were likely to vote Democratic, particularly African Americans, Latinos and college students. In some of those states on which Trump built his victories, Republican-designed voter suppression laws, including ID mandates, limits on early voting and a reduction in polling locations, seem to have had their intended effect. As Ari Berman noted:

27,000 votes currently separate Trump and Clinton in Wisconsin, where 300,000 registered voters, according to a federal court, lacked strict forms of voter ID. Voter turnout in Wisconsin was at its lowest levels in 20 years and decreased 13 percent in Milwaukee, where 70 percent of the state’s African-American population lives.​

And the Trump campaign itself had an explicit strategy to demoralize Democrats, developed by Trump campaign CEO Stephen Bannon. As Bloomberg Businessweek reported two weeks ago:

Instead of expanding the electorate, Bannon and his team are trying to shrink it. ‘We have three major voter suppression operations under way,’ says a senior official. They’re aimed at three groups Clinton needs to win overwhelmingly: idealistic white liberals, young women, and African Americans.​

How much credit they can take is open to debate, but there’s no doubt that they got the result they were after.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blog...voter-turnout-plunged/?utm_term=.5c7a393e9883

Click to expand...

Figures that a liberal would come into a thread suggesting you stop whining and moaning and start whining and moaning.

TheGoverness said:

I bet you a penny and a fiddle of gold, that if Hillary Clinton had won the election instead, almost none of the people who are whining about the Electoral College, would be.

Click to expand...

Well, gee...I would guess not....since if she had won BOTH the EC and the popular vote, there would not be any reason to complain. The complaint comes due to the fact that the EC has failed 6 times.

CanadaJohn said:

Figures that a liberal would come into a thread suggesting you stop whining and moaning and start whining and moaning.

Click to expand...

I suppose presentation of facts....is "whining and moaning".....for those with an inability to absorb, comprehend, facts.

Its all just nonsense.

Why...we are OUTRAGED that foreign entities might have attempted to influence our election.
Except when its Saudi Arabia and George Soros.

The Russians!!! The Russians!!! The Russi.....
The Russians didnt collude to **** over millions of Bernie Sanders voters. The Russians didnt write those emails that were released. The Russians didnt get caught coordinate debate questions from the media to a campaign. IF (and thats very much in question) the Russians were responsible for the email release, ALL they did was expose the DNC for who and what they are.

Yes, Trump is a douchebag. Yes...Hillary was a bigger douchebag.

Yes...Trump delivered his message clumsily. That DOESNT mean there isnt a massive problem with illegal immigration, that terrorism isnt a very real world threat, and that the economy doesnt need a serious kickstart.

We discussed it here for damn near 2 years. No....minority voters were NOT going to switch en masse to the GOP candidate. However...there was ZERO motivation or incentive for minority voters to go to the polls in SUPPORT of HRC.

Hillary lost because she is a **** candidate. She lost because they ran a **** campaign.

CanadaJohn said:

I would add that Republicans are damn good at staying home too when their party's candidate doesn't suit them - just look at 2012.

Click to expand...

Lets look:



Huh...a higher turnout in '12.

Guess you are just too far away from the US.

danarhea said:

1) Let's start with the candidates themselves. Yes, Trump is a vile and despicable human being. So what was your answer to him? Another vile and despicable human being. You ran a flawed candidate.

2) But here is the most important aspect of your failure - Your voters just didn't show up. This is the difference between Democratic and Republican voters. Republicans are willing to walk through 40 foot snowdrifts and stand in line for as long as necessary in order to vote. Democrats? Not so much. This is why apathy generally costs Democrats in midterm elections (2006 being a rare exception), and apathy among the Democrats helped put Trump in power. Sure, Russia helped sway opinion in this election, but in the key states which put Trump in power (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) Democrats turned out in lower numbers than they did in 2012. Did they think they didn't need to bother voting because "Hillary had this in the bag"? That's part of it, but most of it is that Republicans see voting as a duty while Democrats see voting as an inconvenience to be exercised only when necessary. That's just my take on this.

3) Also important - Republicans are ruthless, and Democrats are wimps. I'll leave it at that.

Democrats are pointing at Trump, Trump supporters, Russia, and even a partridge in a pear tree to justify why they lost. What they refuse to acknowledge is that they themselves had just as big of a hand in losing as Trump, Trump supporters, and Russia did. When Obama was in power, Democrats complained that Republicans answered "But Obama" to every criticism against them. But aren't Democrats doing the same thing? "But Trump" and "But Russia" is what I am hearing these days. Gee, it's the same thing you accused Republicans of while Obama was in office.

Man up. You own this too.

Discussion?

Click to expand...

The people who voted for Trump bear responsibility for his election. I supported Bernie and voted for Hillary so i feel that i bear no responsibility for his election.

Gimmesometruth said:

I suppose presentation of facts....is "whining and moaning".....for those with an inability to absorb, comprehend, facts.

Click to expand...

You're the one who seems incapable of comprehending facts. Hillary Clinton lost the election because she lost Pennsylvania, a State with a Democrat governor and house, and she lost the two rust belt States, Ohio and Michigan as well as Wisconsin, all won by Obama in 2008 and 2012, and it was primarily because she was so utterly arrogant as to take those four States for granted and tried to win in States Republicans held and she didn't need in order to claim she had a massive mandate. She ran a **** poor campaign and was a **** poor candidate, but you can't bring yourself to accept that FACT.

You're the exact type of person that danarhea is referring to and your post seems to indicate you're too dense to get it.

Gimmesometruth said:

Lets look:

Huh...a higher turnout in '12.

Guess you are just too far away from the US.

Click to expand...

Guess you didn't understand the context of my comment - not surprising, since your posts seem to be utterly oblivious to the context of this thread.

VanceMack said:

George Soros

Click to expand...

...is a US citizen.

CanadaJohn said:

Guess you didn't understand the context of my comment - not surprising, since your posts seem to be utterly oblivious to the context of this thread.

Click to expand...

Uh, Romney attracted MORE GOP voters than Dump, the OPPOSITE of your CONTENTION, which WAS the, your, context in your post. Focus on subjects you know, stop commenting on things you don't know.

The D's made this a referendum on Obama's work, and his work mostly sucks.

THAT's the problem.

danarhea said:

1) Let's start with the candidates themselves. Yes, Trump is a vile and despicable human being. So what was your answer to him? Another vile and despicable human being. You ran a flawed candidate.

2) But here is the most important aspect of your failure - Your voters just didn't show up. This is the difference between Democratic and Republican voters. Republicans are willing to walk through 40 foot snowdrifts and stand in line for as long as necessary in order to vote. Democrats? Not so much. This is why apathy generally costs Democrats in midterm elections (2006 being a rare exception), and apathy among the Democrats helped put Trump in power. Sure, Russia helped sway opinion in this election, but in the key states which put Trump in power (Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania) Democrats turned out in lower numbers than they did in 2012. Did they think they didn't need to bother voting because "Hillary had this in the bag"? That's part of it, but most of it is that Republicans see voting as a duty while Democrats see voting as an inconvenience to be exercised only when necessary. That's just my take on this.

3) Also important - Republicans are ruthless, and Democrats are wimps. I'll leave it at that.

Democrats are pointing at Trump, Trump supporters, Russia, and even a partridge in a pear tree to justify why they lost. What they refuse to acknowledge is that they themselves had just as big of a hand in losing as Trump, Trump supporters, and Russia did. When Obama was in power, Democrats complained that Republicans answered "But Obama" to every criticism against them. But aren't Democrats doing the same thing? "But Trump" and "But Russia" is what I am hearing these days. Gee, it's the same thing you accused Republicans of while Obama was in office.

Man up. You own this too.

Discussion?

Click to expand...

To what I bolded I wish that were the case but, if anything, it's the reverse that's true. Trump was just as much as a poke in eye to the Republican "establishment" that talks a good game during the election season then spends the rest of the time explaining why they can't even try to do what they said they would.

Gimmesometruth said:

Uh, Romney attracted MORE GOP voters than Dump, the OPPOSITE of your CONTENTION, which WAS the, your, context in your post. Focus on subjects you know, stop commenting on things you don't know.

Click to expand...

You don't get it and I'm not about to waste time trying to explain it to you.

Have a good 4 years whining.

CanadaJohn said:

and it was primarily because she was so utterly arrogant

Click to expand...

This....is coming from Canuck who thinks fewer voted for Romney than Dump. It doesn't surprise me in the least that you need to shift the discussion away from data and to some personality meme.

CanadaJohn said:

You don't get it and I'm not about to waste time trying to explain it to you.

Click to expand...

Apparently, yer incapable of explaining how you came to a conclusion that Romney got fewer GOP voters than Dump....but then again....so am I.

danarhea said:

1) Let's start with the candidates themselves. Yes, Trump is a vile and despicable human being. So what was your answer to him? Another vile and despicable human being. You ran a flawed candidate.

Click to expand...

That's sort of like saying "pancreatic cancer is as bad as heart disease."

Sorry, but Trump was far more flawed than Clinton. At a bare minimum, Clinton would not have done the following before even taking the oath:

• Inflamed China multiple times via Twitter
• Incurred an unprecedented amount of conflicts of interest
• Attacked a reality TV show via Twitter
• Attacked huge corporations that have hundreds of thousands of employees in the US via Twitter
• Cited Julian Assange (!) as a valid source of information about Russian hacking
• Insulted the US intelligence establishment, then immediately forgetting about those attacks, and saying "I'm a big fan of 'intelligence,'" then saying he wants Congress to investigate a garden-variety press leak

And while the specifics could not be predicted, this was all pretty obvious based on the campaign. I think there's gonna be a lot of anger in 2-3 years....

Anyway:

here is the most important aspect of your failure - Your voters just didn't show up. This is the difference between Democratic and Republican voters. Republicans are willing to walk through 40 foot snowdrifts and stand in line for as long as necessary in order to vote. Democrats? Not so much.

Click to expand...

63 million people voted for Hillary Clinton. 60 million voted for Trump.

The victory basically came down to around 80,000 voters in a handful of swing states.

Dems don't show up in as big numbers for midterms or primaries. But saying "Dems don't show up" is a bit ridiculous.

Also important - Republicans are ruthless, and Democrats are wimps. I'll leave it at that.

Click to expand...

You've never seen an election in New York, have you? :mrgreen:


The reality is that the margins were so thin that pretty much anyone can point to any factor and claim it is the "real reason or reasons" for the outcome. It would be the same thing if Clinton had won. Candidate flaws, last-minute voters, media coverage, ground game, personality, partisan thinking, Comey, Access Hollywood... the list goes on.

Another reality is that few people are gracious losers these days. Look at North Carolina; McCrory fought beyond the bitter end, and when he finally ungraciously threw in the towel, the Republican state legislature called an emergency session for hurricane relief, that -- surprise! -- eviscerated the powers of the incoming governor.

We should also note that despite the above tendency, losers do routinely try to figure out what went wrong, and how to change it. The RNC put out its autopsy in 2012; Democrats are already talking about the need to work harder on local elections, and build a good farm team.

Democrats are pointing at Trump, Trump supporters, Russia, and even a partridge in a pear tree to justify why they lost.

Click to expand...

Uh... Did you not notice how Republicans in Congress are pretty pissed off about Russia as well? That one is not a partisan issue.

When Obama was in power, Democrats complained that Republicans answered "But Obama" to every criticism against them. But aren't Democrats doing the same thing?

Click to expand...

First of all, it's not yet clear if Dems are going to be as reflexively obstructionist as the Republicans were. We've already heard some Congressional Dems are interested in working on an infrastructure bill; and he sided with them, and several Republicans, against the House ganking its own ethics oversight process. No one expects Schumer to be like Reid.

Second, by pretty much any standard, Republican obstructionism was beyond insane. They refused to even consider a SCOTUS justice in the final year of a President's term -- because they were gambling on Trump winning.

Third, it isn't just Democrats who are unhappy with Trump. Despite a few notable post-election suck-ups, there are a lot of Republicans who are not thrilled with the idea of protectionist tariffs, or the President bashing big corporations, or spending $1 trillion on infrastructure, and more.