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Would Republicans have Whined if Obama Did This?

calamity

calamity

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I'm quite sure we would have all heard about the horrors of government overreach by the usual small government/libertarian/conservative suspects, if a D president had dared to do this.

Pres. elect Trump goes after GM for Chevy Cruze manufacturing

Ford cancels Mexico plant. Will create 700 U.S. jobs in 'vote of confidence' in Trump - Jan. 3, 2017



Why are they all of a sudden Big Government Liberals? Oh, that's right. It's because a Republican is the one pushing his big government weight around.
 
calamity said:
I'm quite sure we would have all heard about the horrors of government overreach by the usual small government/libertarian/conservative suspects, if a D president had dared to do this.

Pres. elect Trump goes after GM for Chevy Cruze manufacturing

Ford cancels Mexico plant. Will create 700 U.S. jobs in 'vote of confidence' in Trump - Jan. 3, 2017



Why are they all of a sudden Big Government Liberals? Oh, that's right. It's because a Republican is the one pushing his big government weight around.
Click to expand...

It is messy for a President to try to micro manage the economy. If he tries that, he will be a disaster in this regard also.
 
joG said:
It is messy for a President to try to micro manage the economy. If he tries that, he will be a disaster in this regard also.
Click to expand...

I'm all for getting jobs back to the US, but I am not really sure that strong-arming corporations is the way to go about it. If I was a shareholder of GM or Ford, I would be pissed.
 
calamity said:
I'm quite sure we would have all heard about the horrors of government overreach by the usual small government/libertarian/conservative suspects, if a D president had dared to do this.

Pres. elect Trump goes after GM for Chevy Cruze manufacturing

Ford cancels Mexico plant. Will create 700 U.S. jobs in 'vote of confidence' in Trump - Jan. 3, 2017



Why are they all of a sudden Big Government Liberals? Oh, that's right. It's because a Republican is the one pushing his big government weight around.
Click to expand...

No...
 
calamity said:
I'm all for getting jobs back to the US, but I am not really sure that strong-arming corporations is the way to go about it. If I was a shareholder of GM or Ford, I would be pissed.
Click to expand...

If your stock went up you wouldn't care.
 
calamity said:
So, all of a sudden you are OK with government interference in business?
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How did the government interfere with business? Did Congress pass a law? Did the bureaucracy pen a regulation?
 
apdst said:
How did the government interfere with business? Did Congress pass a law? Did the bureaucracy pen a regulation?
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:roll:
 
calamity said:
I'm all for getting jobs back to the US, but I am not really sure that strong-arming corporations is the way to go about it. If I was a shareholder of GM or Ford, I would be pissed.
Click to expand...

It is not the way to go in countries the size of the US. They are too complex.
 
calamity said:
I'm quite sure we would have all heard about the horrors of government overreach by the usual small government/libertarian/conservative suspects, if a D president had dared to do this.

Pres. elect Trump goes after GM for Chevy Cruze manufacturing

Ford cancels Mexico plant. Will create 700 U.S. jobs in 'vote of confidence' in Trump - Jan. 3, 2017



Why are they all of a sudden Big Government Liberals? Oh, that's right. It's because a Republican is the one pushing his big government weight around.
Click to expand...

Initiating Tariffs is part of the job of the federal government.
 
joG said:
It is not the way to go in countries the size of the US. They are too complex.
Click to expand...

If he does it by shaming them and scaring them into thinking the public outcry will damage their reputation, then good. That is what the bully pulpit is for. If he does it by micromanaging them, then not so much.

I'll score this one for Trump though. I just wish Obama had the stones to do this 8 years ago. But, he didn't. He just wants to be liked. Trump is like the honey badger, he don't give give ****.
 
calamity said:
If he does it by shaming them and scaring them into thinking the public outcry will damage their reputation, then good. That is what the bully pulpit is for. If he does it by micromanaging them, then not so much.

I'll score this one for Trump though. I just wish Obama had the stones to do this 8 years ago. But, he didn't. He just wants to be liked. Trump is like the honey badger, he don't give give ****.
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I am not so sure on this point. If you have got the rules wrong in a large and complex society you will not be able to correct the general development by making individual companies offers they can't refuse.

That is not a solution and it is not the kind of society the US has ever wanted to be.
 
calamity said:
I'm quite sure we would have all heard about the horrors of government overreach by the usual small government/libertarian/conservative suspects, if a D president had dared to do this.

Pres. elect Trump goes after GM for Chevy Cruze manufacturing

Ford cancels Mexico plant. Will create 700 U.S. jobs in 'vote of confidence' in Trump - Jan. 3, 2017



Why are they all of a sudden Big Government Liberals? Oh, that's right. It's because a Republican is the one pushing his big government weight around.
Click to expand...

The ideas of being opposed to globalism and being opposed to big government are not mutually exclusive. In fact, reducing the effect of globalism on the American job market requires less overall government interference and influence toward businesses.

Because of this, the idea of a "D president" using his deal-making skills to induce businesses to keep their jobs in the US is engaging in fantasy. The D president would never think of opposing globalism and the D president would be much more likely to pass a law that mandates the business behavior they want or forbidding the behavior they don't want instead of making a deal with businesses that everyone can live with or structuring the regulatory framework with cost/benefit results in mind.

Now, in regard to those two auto companies and their actions, They both are gaging which way the wind is blowing and how it affects their business. Ford has decided that, given the tax and regulatory policies proposed by Trump...and the likelihood of them being enacted...canceling that Mexico plant makes good business sense. GM hasn't yet come to that same conclusion because their situation is different.
 
Mycroft said:
The ideas of being opposed to globalism and being opposed to big government are not mutually exclusive. In fact, reducing the effect of globalism on the American job market requires less overall government interference and influence toward businesses.

Because of this, the idea of a "D president" using his deal-making skills to induce businesses to keep their jobs in the US is engaging in fantasy. The D president would never think of opposing globalism and the D president would be much more likely to pass a law that mandates the business behavior they want or forbidding the behavior they don't want instead of making a deal with businesses that everyone can live with or structuring the regulatory framework with cost/benefit results in mind.

Now, in regard to those two auto companies and their actions, They both are gaging which way the wind is blowing and how it affects their business. Ford has decided that, given the tax and regulatory policies proposed by Trump...and the likelihood of them being enacted...canceling that Mexico plant makes good business sense. GM hasn't yet come to that same conclusion because their situation is different.
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Fair enough. But, I am an easy sell on this issue.

Ford building a $2B super-plant in Mexico would have been a slap in the face. Obama would have turned the other cheek. Trump went wtf? Fired up his Twitter account and forced Ford to rethink it.

Win for Trump, and hopefully for the US.
 
joG said:
I am not so sure on this point. If you have got the rules wrong in a large and complex society you will not be able to correct the general development by making individual companies offers they can't refuse.

That is not a solution and it is not the kind of society the US has ever wanted to be.
Click to expand...
Hopefully part of Trump's plan is to change some of those wrong rules. Time will tell. We really do need to bring mfg back. Farming everything out to overseas suppliers is a huge problem, and it weakens our national security because we become incapable of ramping up war production if ever it is needed.
 
joG said:
It is messy for a President to try to micro manage the economy. If he tries that, he will be a disaster in this regard also.
Click to expand...

Why? Our Federal Reserve has been manipulating the economy for YEARS. The President can do no worse. Smoke and mirrors about over, though, as we'd better see rate hikes or it's game over yet again...

Oh! Just in time for the Republican Admin to take the hit!
 
calamity said:
Hopefully part of Trump's plan is to change some of those wrong rules. Time will tell. We really do need to bring mfg back. Farming everything out to overseas suppliers is a huge problem, and it weakens our national security because we become incapable of ramping up war production if ever it is needed.
Click to expand...

Actually, manufacturing has not gone. It has reduced employment and switched to the production of other things. Its productivity has increased considerably. That does not mean that there are no risks and other downside attached. But to produce a car at the same price as workers doing $ 100 a month labor costing $ 4.000 pm needs a lot more efficiency. It seems right now that this cannot be achieved very well. Otherwise it would be being done like it is being in some niches like BMWs. But to bring back the production of commodity consumer goods will require either robots or cheaper labor, while it is unclear that robot technology is capital efficient enough to do the trick.
 
MaggieD said:
Why? Our Federal Reserve has been manipulating the economy for YEARS. The President can do no worse. Smoke and mirrors about over, though, as we'd better see rate hikes or it's game over yet again...

Oh! Just in time for the Republican Admin to take the hit!
Click to expand...

You are absolutely right that the Fed has been over engaging since the first asset bubble burst and we needed to prevent a depression. But the Fed action was crisis control and not comparable with its business as usual. As a matter of fact, it was the neglect of doing its job in the 1990s that co-caused the consecutive bubbles we are dealing with. Normally the Fed has a set of systemic functions that are part of the general economic rules the country runs by.

Coercing individual companies to invest in the country is quite something else and has more similarity to the sad command economies of the last century than the market based system that has produced so good a life in this country.
 
joG said:
You are absolutely right that the Fed has been over engaging since the first asset bubble burst and we needed to prevent a depression. But the Fed action was crisis control and not comparable with its business as usual. As a matter of fact, it was the neglect of doing its job in the 1990s that co-caused the consecutive bubbles we are dealing with. Normally the Fed has a set of systemic functions that are part of the general economic rules the country runs by.

Coercing individual companies to invest in the country is quite something else and has more similarity to the sad command economies of the last century than the market based system that has produced so good a life in this country.
Click to expand...

The Fed has changed that market-based system quite a bit, yes? Zero interest hanging on wayyy too long while pumping the stock market with people chasing yield. Now afraid to raise interest rates because of a market meltdown. Social engineering is tricky.

The people want American jobs...call centers filled with people who speak English as their first language...and perhaps Spanish as well. The people want GOOD American jobs. Not part-time fast foods or part-time $10 an hours cabin cleaning jobs at the airport, or $15 an hour 20-hour week jobs at McDonald's paid to someone Maggie can't understand at the drive-thru speakers.

If dangling incentives in front of American manufacturers helps toward that end? Dangle away. We've been incentiving companies to open sales centers and mfg.g plants state to state for generations. It works. Can't hurt to try it from a Fed standpoint.?
 
MaggieD said:
The Fed has changed that market-based system quite a bit, yes? Zero interest hanging on wayyy too long while pumping the stock market with people chasing yield. Now afraid to raise interest rates because of a market meltdown. Social engineering is tricky.

The people want American jobs...call centers filled with people who speak English as their first language...and perhaps Spanish as well. The people want GOOD American jobs. Not part-time fast foods or part-time $10 an hours cabin cleaning jobs at the airport, or $15 an hour 20-hour week jobs at McDonald's paid to someone Maggie can't understand at the drive-thru speakers.

If dangling incentives in front of American manufacturers helps toward that end? Dangle away. We've been incentiving companies to open sales centers and mfg.g plants state to state for generations. It works. Can't hurt to try it from a Fed standpoint.?
Click to expand...

You are quite right, the rates should not have been kept so low and the Fed should not have refinanced the government to the extent it has. But the Fed has actually done a quite good job, considering the mess Clinton and Greenspan made, the fact that we were at war and Obama then did not reign in public spending. But the Fed's tools are spent and that is, what disturbs me with the Fed.

I am fully with you that the government should incentivize the economic actors. But it should do so on a general rule of law basis and not on a fly by night message.
 
joG said:
Actually, manufacturing has not gone. It has reduced employment and switched to the production of other things. Its productivity has increased considerably. That does not mean that there are no risks and other downside attached. But to produce a car at the same price as workers doing $ 100 a month labor costing $ 4.000 pm needs a lot more efficiency. It seems right now that this cannot be achieved very well. Otherwise it would be being done like it is being in some niches like BMWs. But to bring back the production of commodity consumer goods will require either robots or cheaper labor, while it is unclear that robot technology is capital efficient enough to do the trick.
Click to expand...

I understand completely. Manufacturing management is, after all, what I do. My point though is that if we rely too much on overseas goods, we are ****ed if the shipping lanes ever become compromised. So, it might be worth the investment to expand manufacturing, even if the the automation is too costly at this given point in time and labor in Thailand can produce the good at a fraction of the cost.

Tariffs on imports are more than just a protection racket for labor. It's a national security issue, IMO.
 
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