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Is it possible to be nonpartisan about Trump

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CriticalThought

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I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
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How could there be a discussion on the job Trump is doing when he has over a month to go before he even gets sworn in?
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
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I agree with most of what you're saying here.
I'm guessing things will calm down---a little---once Trump's term begins.
I hope.
 
reinoe said:
How could there be a discussion on the job Trump is doing when he has over a month to go before he even gets sworn in?
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Easy. He is picking his Cabinet. That is perhaps the most crucial job of a President elect. Some of his choices have questionable records. Others appear to have views that are diametrically opposed to the mission of the departments they have been chosen to run. He has made perhaps the most military related picks of any administration. There is a lot for even the most ardent Trump supporter to unpack and consider, particularly since some of his picks appear to run completely contrary to his campaign promises. It just does not happen. It seems like Trump could install a drug lord to head the DEA and there would be little concern or discussion about it aside from partisan rhetoric.
 
I believe it is possible to not vote for the guy, not like his person or character, hope for his success (because that would translate to success for the country) and be right there to call him to accounting for his failures (which oddly enough should be everyone's agenda for ALL presidents).
 
CriticalThought said:
Easy. He is picking his Cabinet. That is perhaps the most crucial job of a President elect. Some of his choices have questionable records. Others appear to have views that are diametrically opposed to the mission of the departments they have been chosen to run. He has made perhaps the most military related picks of any administration. There is a lot for even the most ardent Trump supporter to unpack and consider, particularly since some of his picks appear to run completely contrary to his campaign promises. It just does not happen. It seems like Trump could install a drug lord to head the DEA and there would be little concern or discussion about it aside from partisan rhetoric.
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OK, then let's talk about that.

Tom Price is a person who is passionate about dismantling the ACA. Trump has said he wants it dismantled. The ACA is a boondoggle and has no rational way of working, largely because some of the "10 ESSENTIAL BENEFITS" that all plans are required to cover are not essential but greatly increase the cost of health insurance because they'll be abused.

Steve Mnuchin is a questionable choice because Trump frequently lambasted the big banks:::but who was also qualified for the job AND WANTED IT. That's a serious question. What wealthy individual is gonna give up their 6-7 figure salary to do government work. When it comes to policy it looks like Mnuchin is definitely in line with what Trump has said he wants to do.

Rex Tillerson is a good choice for Secretary of state. He has international experience with working under foreign regulations and rules.

Ben Carson as choice for HUD is just a bone being thrown to an early supporter and everyone knows it. At least it's not a position that was sold for a buck like many of Obama's ambassadorships.

I thought Wesley Clarke would be a shoe-in for Homeland Security. John F. Kelly is to be the nominee but I'd rather have a civilian in the role since it's "HOMELAND SECURITY".

The whole nominate people who are counter to what the departments do thing. That's largely to stop imposing regulations like I mentioned. Education, EPA, Labor, and Commerce: these are people who are going to eliminate and minimize enforcement of regulations that businesses find cumbersome.

I don't like Session's policies about drug enforcement but seeing as how Hillary has similar views as Sessions on Drug Enforcement. Obama was fecklessly whining about how he wishes that marijuana were regulated like alcohol and cigarettes even though he could do that literally with an Executive Order so the Dems didn't offer any relief there anyway. Furthermore at least it looks like Sessions will actually enforce our immigration laws.
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
Click to expand...

I personally have never seem more IDOL WORSHIP than those that supported Hillary.
She was a GOD to them.
That is why they are in involuntary convulsions right now.
This is also why they feel Trump is SATAN and the Anti-Christ.
Afterall, if Hillary was a GOD, and she got beaten, then only SATAN and his minions could have done it.

Don't believe me?

Then just ask any one of them. They will tell you.
Don't take my word for it.
 
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reinoe said:
How could there be a discussion on the job Trump is doing when he has over a month to go before he even gets sworn in?
Click to expand...

Weeeelll.....
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
Click to expand...

I am not sure if it is religious, but it is certainly a demonstration of how backlash to ideological bigotry can work. The liberals had lost connection to commonsense and were all too full of themselves and arrogantly brushed reasonable discourse and objections away. If you trample other citizens' Constitutional rights, freedoms and protections against majority suppression, the reaction can easily be hard.
 
reinoe said:
OK, then let's talk about that.

Tom Price is a person who is passionate about dismantling the ACA. Trump has said he wants it dismantled. The ACA is a boondoggle and has no rational way of working, largely because some of the "10 ESSENTIAL BENEFITS" that all plans are required to cover are not essential but greatly increase the cost of health insurance because they'll be abused.

Steve Mnuchin is a questionable choice because Trump frequently lambasted the big banks:::but who was also qualified for the job AND WANTED IT. That's a serious question. What wealthy individual is gonna give up their 6-7 figure salary to do government work. When it comes to policy it looks like Mnuchin is definitely in line with what Trump has said he wants to do.

Rex Tillerson is a good choice for Secretary of state. He has international experience with working under foreign regulations and rules.

Ben Carson as choice for HUD is just a bone being thrown to an early supporter and everyone knows it. At least it's not a position that was sold for a buck like many of Obama's ambassadorships.

I thought Wesley Clarke would be a shoe-in for Homeland Security. John F. Kelly is to be the nominee but I'd rather have a civilian in the role since it's "HOMELAND SECURITY".

The whole nominate people who are counter to what the departments do thing. That's largely to stop imposing regulations like I mentioned. Education, EPA, Labor, and Commerce: these are people who are going to eliminate and minimize enforcement of regulations that businesses find cumbersome.

I don't like Session's policies about drug enforcement but seeing as how Hillary has similar views as Sessions on Drug Enforcement. Obama was fecklessly whining about how he wishes that marijuana were regulated like alcohol and cigarettes even though he could do that literally with an Executive Order so the Dems didn't offer any relief there anyway. Furthermore at least it looks like Sessions will actually enforce our immigration laws.
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Damn!

When you're on a roll, you're pretty good! :thumbs:
 
Not sure that the reaction to Trump is much different that it was to Obama as a similar point. Yes, many on the left seem to be unhinged and more aggressive than I remember anyone on the right in 2008 but Trump, like Obama, is largely a blank slate and we have no public service record to stand on, simply guesses as to what kind of President he will be. If, in fact, he is actually elected. Apparently we may not know that until 1/6 when the Electoral College votes are counted. His potential appointees are not enough until we understand how much he will listen to them. He may have selected some of them simply to present opposing views on subjects that he has little or no background, like the military. If Hillary were elected, I would hope she would have done the same-have military people close due to her lack of military knowledge.
 
reinoe said:
How could there be a discussion on the job Trump is doing when he has over a month to go before he even gets sworn in?
Click to expand...

well to be fair, conservatives ( and conservative like posters) were blaming President elect Obama for the" market crash" that some had just noticed. The problem with their narrative was the crash had started in the summer of 2007. It also ignored the panic that started when they let lehman fail. And the conservative media fanned these flames of ignorance. President elect Obama was conservative in his picks because of the constant claims of "out of control socialism" and of course "born in Kenya". He even nominated republicans. He didn't just have to fix a destroyed economy, he had to calm the irrational and ignorant fears of conservatives.

Its just hard not to judge someone harshly who has demonstrated not one shred of common sense and continues that trend.
 
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Eric7216 said:
Yes, many on the left seem to be unhinged and more aggressive than I remember anyone on the right in 2008 .
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sorry Eric, besides the fact that Trump supporters were threatening armed revolt because Trump was telling them the election was rigged, you don't seem to no remember 2008 very well. You and yours were told a secret muslim Kenyan was president and would destroy the economy. its why you and yours couldn't respond in a rational and intelligent manner when we tried to explain there were no death panels, he wasn't born in kenya and the stimulus would not cause "hyper inflation, dollar collapse, market to zero". Some of you still have not recovered.

And just to drive home the point, we point to what Trump has said and done to criticize him. You and yours believed the most asinine and ridiculous lies to criticize President Obama.
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me?

The lack of objectivity you speak of is not limited to those who are "defending Trump."

Do you call it "objective" when threads are often about method after method being put forward on how to stop him from occupying the office of President?

People are actually arguing the merits of the immediate elimination of the Electoral College so that Hillary can be elected based on the "Popular Vote;" demanding recounts (but only in States Trump won) because "Russia Hacked!;" advocating the suborning of Republican Electors to vote for anyone else (cough cough Hillary) better qualified; suggesting a complete do-over election because again "Russia Hacked!;" and most recently that he is mentally ill and needs a psychiatric evaluation which should serve to disqualify him. :doh

That's only the tip of the iceberg, not even touching on all the "objective" terminology like "racist, bigot, xenophobe, sexist, misogynist, etc." used in OP's to demonize him, thereby setting the tone for defensive postures taken in responses that you are complaining about. Then, as pointed out already by Reinoe, there is that fact that he hasn't even taken office yet but we are inundated with "objective" posts about how he is going to screw up simply based on his few current Cabinet picks. :roll:

I voted for Trump, mostly but NOT completely because I was a #NeverHillary advocate. Not completely because I did examine his policy goals and found I could support some of them, and I also knew about him long before he threw his hat in the ring and could not believe all the labeling thrown at him by the MSM and the SJW Alt-left crowd during the campaign.

However, I step up as an advocate in these types of threads because it is in my nature to defend against bullying tactics. That's exactly what SJW's (and in fact anyone who uses demonization as a tactic) are doing when they label someone and then use those labels as both their argument and a method to dismiss the person so labeled as unworthy of "objective" consideration.

IMO there are very few "objective" threads being started by member's opposed to a Trump Presidency and I have personally gotten tired of reading and responding to them for the very reason you state...those who post them don't seem to be thinking rationally, and their responses seldom retain any "objectivity" when faced with opposing views. :coffeepap:
 
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RetiredNSmilin said:
I personally have never seem more IDOL WORSHIP than those that supported Hillary.
She was a GOD to them.
That is why they are in involuntary convulsions right now.
This is also why they feel Trump is SATAN and the Anti-Christ.
Afterall, if Hillary was a GOD, and she got beaten, then only SATAN and his minions could have done it.

Don't believe me?

Then just ask any one of them. They will tell you.
Don't take my word for it.
Click to expand...

This post is kind of proving my point. This is a thread about whether or not it is possible to have a nonpartisan discussion on Trump and you immediately jump into a partisan tirade about Clinton. She lost. Trump is going to be the president. There is really no point discussing her.
 
joG said:
I am not sure if it is religious, but it is certainly a demonstration of how backlash to ideological bigotry can work. The liberals had lost connection to commonsense and were all too full of themselves and arrogantly brushed reasonable discourse and objections away. If you trample other citizens' Constitutional rights, freedoms and protections against majority suppression, the reaction can easily be hard.
Click to expand...

Frankly, both sides have been guilty of that the last eight years.
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
Click to expand...

But those are the facts. This very post shows YOUR partisanship. If the left would quit playing partisan politics you could have a reasonable debate with at least some on here, including me. I am not a Trump supporter and didn't even vote for him but I am open minded about him and yet I have to spend my time on here defending him from partisan nonsense and lies. How about an honest debate instead of just using your partisan facts? If all you want to do is tear him apart and criticize him, how do you expect to have an honest debate? You have a predetermined agenda of how you want the debate to go and then you get upset if people call you out on your predetermined agenda.
 
Captain Adverse said:
Are you kidding me?

The lack of objectivity you speak of is not limited to those who are "defending Trump."

Do you call it "objective" when threads are often about method after method being put forward on how to stop him from occupying the office of President?

People are actually arguing the merits of the immediate elimination of the Electoral College so that Hillary can be elected based on the "Popular Vote;" demanding recounts (but only in States Trump won) because "Russia Hacked!;" advocating the suborning of Republican Electors to vote for anyone else (cough cough Hillary) better qualified; suggesting a complete do-over election because again "Russia Hacked!;" and most recently that he is mentally ill and needs a psychiatric evaluation which should serve to disqualify him. :doh

That's only the tip of the iceberg, not even touching on all the "objective" terminology like "racist, bigot, xenophobe, sexist, misogynist, etc." used in OP's to demonize him, thereby setting the tone for defensive postures taken in responses that you are complaining about. Then, as pointed out already by Reinoe, there is that fact that he hasn't even taken office yet but we are inundated with "objective" posts about how he is going to screw up simply based on his few current Cabinet picks. :roll:

I voted for Trump, mostly but NOT completely because I was a #NeverHillary advocate. Not completely because I did examine his policy goals and found I could support some of them, and I also knew about him long before he threw his hat in the ring and could not believe all the labeling thrown at him by the MSM and the SJW Alt-left crowd during the campaign.

However, I step up as an advocate in these types of threads because it is in my nature to defend against bullying tactics. That's exactly what SJW's (and in fact anyone who uses demonization as a tactic) are doing when they label someone and then use those labels as both their argument and a method to dismiss the person so labeled as unworthy of "objective" consideration.

IMO there are very few "objective" threads being started by member's opposed to a Trump Presidency and I have personally gotten tired of reading and responding to them for the very reason you state...those who post them don't seem to be thinking rationally, and their responses seldom retain any "objectivity" when faced with opposing views. :coffeepap:
Click to expand...

Ditto
 
CriticalThought said:
It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
Click to expand...

Sure, but what has Trump done politically yet? Said a bunch of things. He's actually said so much that anyone can find that he's for, or against, any position.

The fact is, you can't have a political debate about Trump's policy because he has none. Obama is president. We have a 24 hour media cycle that is right now just railing on Trump for who he picks, what he tweets, the SNL crowd, etc. Trump supported are defending against that, which is just subjective emotion...because the opposition is also subjective emotion (who he picked and why and who he snubbed etc., etc>)

It's lame duck DP politics right now, go on vacation, forget about it for a while :)
 
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Mach said:
Sure, but what has Trump done politically yet? Said a bunch of things. He's actually said so much that anyone can find that he's for, or against, any position.

The fact is, you can't have a politically debate about Trump's policy because he has none. Obama is president. We have a 24 hour media cycle that is right now just railing on Trump for who he picks, what he tweets, the SNL crowd, etc. Trump supported are defending against that, which is just subjective emotion...because the opposition is also subjective emotion (who he picked and why and who he snubbed etc., etc>)

It's lame duck DP politics right now, go on vacation, forget about it for a while :)
Click to expand...

Exactly. The left plays partisan politics with everything about Trump. Trump has said many things that are both Democratic and Liberal in the past and yet the left holds him to everything he has said that is not, which are all over the place as well. You are right, Trump has been all over the place with things he has said so who knows what will really happen and what his policies will be when he actually becomes president? And, the Congress will be a wild card. They will not rubberstamp whatever Trump wants and Trump will not rubberstamp whatever Congress wants.
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
Click to expand...

You have a valid point.
 
CriticalThought said:
I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.
Click to expand...

Greetings, Critical Thought. :2wave:

And Hillary hasn't been "elevated into a kind of idol worship" by her followers?

Perhaps if we wait until Trump becomes President on January 20, 2017, any arguments about how well he is performing will have some validity. Until then, debates about what he might or might not do is conjecture on everyone's part, and that includes both sides of the aisle! :thumbdown: While he didn't get my vote, I agree with those who state that he deserves the chance to show us what he can do since he won the required Electoral College votes like every other POTUS has had to in the past several hundred years - fair is still fair, dammit! Nothing has changed except Hillary has now lost to two different challengers in the past eight years, and curiously the first one, Obama, was from the same party as her!! :shock:
 
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polgara said:
Greetings, Critical Thought. :2wave:

And Hillary hasn't been "elevated into a kind of idol worship" by her followers?

Perhaps if we wait until Trump becomes President on January 20, 2017, any arguments about how well he is performing will have some validity. Until then, debates about what he might or might not do is conjecture on everyone's part, and that includes both sides of the aisle! :thumbdown: While he didn't get my vote, I agree with those who state that he deserves the chance to show us what he can do since he won the required Electoral College votes like every other POTUS has had to in the past several hundred years - fair is still fair, dammit! Nothing has changed except Hillary has now lost to two different challengers in the past eight years, and curiously the first one, Obama, was from the same party as her!! :shock:
Click to expand...

Please don't take away their only purpose in life. They have nothing else left.
 
polgara said:
Greetings, Critical Thought. :2wave:

And Hillary hasn't been "elevated into a kind of idol worship" by her followers?

Perhaps if we wait until Trump becomes President on January 20, 2017, any arguments about how well he is performing will have some validity. Until then, debates about what he might or might not do is conjecture on everyone's part, and that includes both sides of the aisle! :thumbdown: While he didn't get my vote, I agree with those who state that he deserves the chance to show us what he can do since he won the required Electoral College votes like every other POTUS has had to in the past several hundred years - fair is still fair, dammit! Nothing has changed except Hillary has now lost to two different challengers in the past eight years, and curiously the first one, Obama, was from the same party as her!! :shock:
Click to expand...

Another post that proves my point. This thread is about having a nonpartisan discussion on Trump and where does it lead? Hillary Clinton. She lost. She is irrelevant. And yet Trump supporters still seem more interested in talking about her than their own candidate. There is already plenty to discuss about Trump. Claiming the CIA are idiots is a good place to start. Is it possible to have a nonpartisan discussion on the CIA and FBI conclusions of the hacking of the RNC and DNC?
 
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