Is it possible to be nonpartisan about Trump

CriticalThought said:

Frankly, both sides have been guilty of that the last eight years.

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While the infringements have certainly been more from the liberals while it was the religious that complained.

CriticalThought said:

Another post that proves my point. This thread is about having a nonpartisan discussion on Trump and where does it lead? Hillary Clinton. She lost. She is irrelevant. And yet Trump supporters still seem more interested in talking about her than their own candidate. There is already plenty to discuss about Trump. Claiming the CIA are idiots is a good place to start. Is it possible to have a nonpartisan discussion on the CIA and FBI conclusions of the hacking of the RNC and DNC?

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I don't think it is possible for YOU to have a nonpartisan discussion. How about talking about Trump's good qualities? How about talking about how Trump could be good for the country? How about talking about how Trump could be good for the world? How about talking about how Trump could be good for jobs and the economy? How about talking about how Trump could actually bring the country together instead of the gridlock we have been having for years? You claim to want a nonpartisan discussion but you only want to talk about partisan liberal talking points!

CriticalThought said:

Another post that proves my point.

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You made a thread complaining about the impossibility of non-partisan discussion, while acting in an abundantly partisan fashion by turning an absolute blind eye to one side of the equations partisanship and focusing singularly on attacking those opposite you on the issue. Your OP proves your point in a stunningly un-selfaware fashion.

joG said:

While the infringements have certainly been more from the liberals while it was the religious that complained.

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Republicans played obstructionists. Who can forget them voting against things they had supported only because Obama supported them as well.

CriticalThought said:

Republicans played obstructionists. Who can forget them voting against things they had supported only because Obama supported them as well.

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One would have to look at the individual documents to know why the legislation was not supported. Usually I have found that there was a reason. Not always one that everyone will accept, but who says we should agree? So it is less obstruction than unreasonably so interpreted.

joG said:

One would have to look at the individual documents to know why the legislation was not supported. Usually I have found that there was a reason. Not always one that everyone will accept, but who says we should agree? So it is less obstruction than unreasonably so interpreted.

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Or they needed a reason not to look like Obstructionists so they found anything that seemed semi reasonable.

CriticalThought said:

Or they needed a reason not to look like Obstructionists so they found anything that seemed semi reasonable.

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I guess, if one didn't want to work together, one might think that.

joG said:

One would have to look at the individual documents to know why the legislation was not supported. Usually I have found that there was a reason. Not always one that everyone will accept, but who says we should agree? So it is less obstruction than unreasonably so interpreted.

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Yeah, his claim is totally bogus. Republicans would not be against something they believe in just to spite Obama unless it was for the reason you posted. Maybe he could give us some specific examples of what he was talking about.

CriticalThought said:

Or they needed a reason not to look like Obstructionists so they found anything that seemed semi reasonable.

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Could you give us some specific examples?

reinoe said:

How could there be a discussion on the job Trump is doing when he has over a month to go before he even gets sworn in?

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If you hired a plumber to fix a problem in your house and the person showed up with a box of all kinds of mixed tools that are not all plumbers tools would you have a high confidence in the results? That is not to say that the results could not possibly be good, but would they be so by luck or by competence? Wpould that matter to you? Wold you ask why is a plumber carrying carpentry tools and electricians tools?

VanceMack said:

I believe it is possible to not vote for the guy, not like his person or character, hope for his success (because that would translate to success for the country) and be right there to call him to accounting for his failures (which oddly enough should be everyone's agenda for ALL presidents).

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Yea, that IS possible, even if very few would or do it.

prometeus said:

If you hired a plumber to fix a problem in your house and the person showed up with a box of all kinds of mixed tools that are not all plumbers tools would you have a high confidence in the results? That is not to say that the results could not possibly be good, but would they be so by luck or by competence? Wpould that matter to you? Wold you ask why is a plumber carrying carpentry tools and electricians tools?

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The voters voted for the plumber so since we are going to use that plumber anyway, we shouldn't criticize him until he has actually done something wrong.

Moderate Right said:

The voters voted for the plumber so since we are going to use that plumber anyway, we shouldn't criticize him until he has actually done something wrong.

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Sadly you missed my point entirely. maybe it was my fault for not making it more clear. For the record, I just made a post about reserving judgement till there are actions and results to judge.

VanceMack said:

I believe it is possible to not vote for the guy, not like his person or character, hope for his success (because that would translate to success for the country) and be right there to call him to accounting for his failures (which oddly enough should be everyone's agenda for ALL presidents).

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Very well said.

It's completely possible to be nonpartisan regarding Trump. If many would try to minimize hyperbole and cease assuming negative intent towards opposing viewpoints, it would be easier. That said, color me pessimistic. Being open-minded is easier typed than done.

CriticalThought said:

I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.

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Actually, the Trump supporters have been consistent in that approach of "He has even taken office yet and you're already treating him like he's running the country. The irrational crap has been coming from the Trump-hating left. If there's even a hint of something that might possible happen if Trump decided to do A, B, C and D, then it's assumed that he will do A, B, C and D and will do it in the worst possible way. The discussion is based on "Trump will do A, B, C and D..." and not on "If Trump does A, B, C and D..."

prometeus said:

If you hired a plumber to fix a problem in your house and the person showed up with a box of all kinds of mixed tools that are not all plumbers tools would you have a high confidence in the results? That is not to say that the results could not possibly be good, but would they be so by luck or by competence? Wpould that matter to you? Wold you ask why is a plumber carrying carpentry tools and electricians tools?

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I would also not say that it is bad to for a plumber to carry such tools. Possibly unnecessary but also possibly creative: the possibilities are endless. I would judge by the result. I'm not prejudiced like most liberals.

reinoe said:

I would also not say that it is bad to for a plumber to carry such tools. Possibly unnecessary but also possibly creative: the possibilities are endless. I would judge by the result. I'm not prejudiced like most liberals.

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Yes, the results ARE what really matters, but that does not negate a possible lack of confidence based on observable facts before the work begins and that was my point.

CriticalThought said:

I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.

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At the risk of sounding partisan... :mrgreen:

The problem is that Trump hasn't actually done anything. He has no track record. He's picking administration officials who have no public service either.

To make matters worse, he's incredibly inconsistent and unpredictable. He's changed his positions over time; he's changed positions in a single sentence. We have no idea what he's actually going to do.

How can we have a substantive policy debate, when he has no track record, hasn't enacted any policies, and his policy proposals change every time the wind blows?

Despite these limitations, I'd say there are a handful of real discussions about conflict of interest and Russian interference in US elections. One problem is that Trump basically doesn't want to face either of them. He doesn't want to divest his business; he doesn't want to pay the massive tax bill that would result from that divestiture; he doesn't want anything to remind him that his electoral victory was highly problematic.

Another is that, yeah, Trump is a serial confabulator and/or liar. Many of his claims are demonstrably false, but merely pointing out that is classified as a partisan act. Can't win for losing.


I'd also say that a lot of the criticism of Obama was not in any way, shape or form, substantive. Much of it was partisan in origin, motivation and structure. Many of his critics attacked his citizenship; mischaracterized his economic policies; made absurd allegations about his religious beliefs, and more. On several occasions, he was attacked for proposing policies his attackers had espoused for years (such as switching Social Security's annual increase to chained CPI). Obama couldn't publicly say "2 + 2 = 4" without getting attacked.

That level of vitriol does not exactly incentivize anyone to calm down, especially when the President-Elect basically has no impulse control, and no qualms about viciously attacking anyone who criticizes him -- right down to the level of individual citizens.

So yep, it's gonna be a fun 4 years.

CriticalThought said:

I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.

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No doubt. It probably makes sense to ignore it all. I think Trump ignores it and then tweets to keep the media people busy while he works away.

CriticalThought said:

Another post that proves my point.

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It seems to me that you're actually fishing for the small handful of posts that "prove your point" and refusing to engage in substantive debate with the several members who have given you exactly the kind of discussion you were asking for.

Reinoe gave you exactly what you asked for in arguing for each and every one of the Cabinet picks Trump has made so far.

Eric7216 made some interesting points about the partisan nonsense being very similar today in regard to Trump as it was in regard to Obama back in 2008.

Captain Averse brought up how the pro-Trump partisanship from the Right isn't really all that greatly out-shadowing the anti-Trump partisanship coming from the Left, either in quantity or in vitriol.

Visbeck and others brought up Trump's public policy inexperience as a good reason why it's impossible to talk intelligently about how his record might inform our expectations of what he might do in the future.

And they've all been perfectly civil.

Rather than fixating on the one or two comments that have been exceptions to the rule of this thread and arguing with exactly the kind of people you're trying to avoid why not reach out to the folks who were good enough to give you specifically what you were looking for?

Or just go away as you threatened to.

You remind me of the old song:

After you get what you want you don't want it.
If I gave you the moon, you'd grow tired of it soon.
You're like a baby, you want what you want when you want it.
But after you are presented with what you want, you're discontented.

soot said:

It seems to me that you're actually fishing for the small handful of posts that "prove your point" and refusing to engage in substantive debate with the several members who have given you exactly the kind of discussion you were asking for.

Reinoe gave you exactly what you asked for in arguing for each and every one of the Cabinet picks Trump has made so far.

Eric7216 made some interesting points about the partisan nonsense being very similar today in regard to Trump as it was in regard to Obama back in 2008.

Captain Averse brought up how the pro-Trump partisanship from the Right isn't really all that greatly out-shadowing the anti-Trump partisanship coming from the Left, either in quantity or in vitriol.

Visbeck and others brought up Trump's public policy inexperience as a good reason why it's impossible to talk intelligently about how his record might inform our expectations of what he might do in the future.

And they've all been perfectly civil.

Rather than fixating on the one or two comments that have been exceptions to the rule of this thread and arguing with exactly the kind of people you're trying to avoid why not reach out to the folks who were good enough to give you specifically what you were looking for?

Or just go away as you threatened to.

You remind me of the old song:

After you get what you want you don't want it.
If I gave you the moon, you'd grow tired of it soon.
You're like a baby, you want what you want when you want it.
But after you are presented with what you want, you're discontented.

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Bingo. He never wanted an honest debate to begin with. It was just a cleverly disguised anti-Trump thread, which wasn't really so cleverly disguised.

reinoe said:

Rex Tillerson is a good choice for Secretary of state. He has international experience with working under foreign regulations and rules.

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As an an honored friend of Russia and Putin plus the bonus of ties with Russian owned oil companies, he is the perfect reward to Russia for the help in getting Trump elected.

haymarket said:

As an an honored friend of Russia and Putin plus the bonus of ties with Russian owned oil companies, he is the perfect reward to Russia for the help in getting Trump elected.

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Rumor has it that Boris Badenov is gonna be the Director of National Intelligence. I'd love to have a dedicated Russian agent in charge of all of our national intelligence and an honest to goodness cartoon villain to boot.

CriticalThought said:

I honestly don't feel like debating much here anymore because of how lacking the debates have become in objectivity. Not saying I haven't thrown some punches lately, but at a certain point it is good to be able to move past the rhetoric and begin looking at the facts. However, that just isn't happening. Every thread on Trump regardless of content meets the same chorus of; it's a left wing media conspiracy against Trump, Hillary supporters are sore losers, or strap in for America being great again. At least with the Obama cult, there was some good debate on his policies, the quality of the job he was doing, and his record. It does not seem possible to have a legitimate discussion on anything related to Trump. When a real concern or inconsistency is brought up it is summarily dismissed with a barrage of partisan rhetoric. There is no substance to it anymore. It feels like Trump support has become something of its own religion and Trump has been elevated into a kind of idol worship where he can do no wrong and rational discussion is impossible.

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I have said the same already, that Trump is like a religion to some people. I have noticed in real life with my coworkers, their excitement has kind of died down. I think reality is setting in and they are probably uncomfortable with some of his behavior lately.

reinoe said:

Rumor has it that Boris Badenov is gonna be the Director of National Intelligence. I'd love to have a dedicated Russian agent in charge of all of our national intelligence and an honest to goodness cartoon villain to boot.

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The incoming president has that category to himself.