What exactly is wrong with "Nationlism"?

jamesrage · Jun 13, 2016

MrT said:
Socialism/Communism and Nationalism are not mututally exclusive.That's why you keep using globalist and internationalist - those are the antonyms to a nationalist.

I brought up the fact globalist scum that tend bring up Hitler in order to demonize nationalist/patriotism are the same ones who ignore the fact that nazis are socialist and ignore some other scumbag history who is a socialist or communist. So if it fair for globalist/internationalist scum to demonize nationalism/patriotism with the likes of Hitler,Then it is also fair to use Hitler, Moa or Stalin to demonize socialism/communism.

You still trying to call me scum in some backhanded, ***** fashion. Stop being a coward.

If you don't think globalist are scum then that is your problem.

apdst · Jun 13, 2016

PeteEU said:
Problem is that nationalism so often leads to "we are better than them" attitudes, which is a problem for "them" if the nationalism gets so rabid that mass discrimination or worse happens... and that the nationalism basically blinds you to this, because standing up to such things would make you a traitor and not patriotic. We saw some of that during the Bush administration in the lead up to the Iraq war... just ask the Dixie Chicks and others that opposed the war.

So a little being proud of your nation is fine, but if it gets out of hand then you got problems.

The United States is the greatest nation of all time. I believe that and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

fmw · Jun 21, 2016

Hawkeye10 said:
The wealthy elite want nations to have little power so that they can increase their wealth.

How does it increase their wealth in a manner not available in a nation with great power.?

This is why for instance you see the Koch family sitting out the Trump candidacy, because one of the things they care most about is Amnesty for illegals and the free flow of people across borders so that they can exploit them as workers.

When did they say that?

For the elite nationalism goes in the wrong direction, it makes exploitation and building their wealth more difficult. Somehow in another they have convince the lefty elite that this is a good idea, not that this is saying much, as the current class of global elite seem to be none too bright.

So being stupid promotes elitism?

Hawkeye10 · Jun 21, 2016

fmw said:
How does it increase their wealth in a manner not available in a nation with great power.?

They can (and do) drive down the cost of doing business, like companies go state shopping for deals, often getting not only tax and fee breaks but also funds for training employees, relocation assistance and the like. If the holders of capital could not play the states/nations off against each other at the expense of the little people then they would not.... No? Nations are now generally deep into debt with little power to tax and with little power to create jobs without the assistance of the elite, they usually do as they are told, for instance deregulate, allow massive spucaltion massively driving up costs to everyone to feed the pockets of the elite and you get my drift.

Click to expand...

When did they say that?

When all/almost all the the people they fund take this position

Click to expand...

So being stupid promotes elitism?

No, thinking that you are better than the rest promotes the stupid.

On second thought it is a symptom of stupid

Click to expand...

.

See above.

Gaius46 · Jun 21, 2016

Manc Skipper said:

That pretty much nails it.

There's nothing wrong with loving your country until you let that love blind you to her faults and misdeeds - something a true patriot would not let happen

Hawkeye10 · Jun 21, 2016

Gaius46 said:
That pretty much nails it.

There's nothing wrong with loving your country until you let that love blind you to her faults and misdeeds - something a true patriot would not let happen

And so long as you do not depower your mouth to talk about truths, a very big problem in modern America where seemingly most can only open their mouths about the problems that fit nicely into their political ideology. Show me a guy (Or a gal, YEEZUS) who is willing to criticize and/or challenge anything that is not right no sacred cows and I will show you someone I want by my side as a friend.

THere are I bet tens of millions of people who think of themselves as patriotic Americans who have badly let the country down.

Peter King · Jun 21, 2016

There is nothing wrong with nationalism, just as long as it is not nationalism gone wild/to the extreme. And there at least has to be a realization that this is a very personal point of view that should not lead to hatred of others who are not of the same nationality to you or not as "nationalist" as you are.

Peter King · Jun 21, 2016

Hawkeye10 said:
The wealthy elite want nations to have little power so that they can increase their wealth. This is why for instance you see the Koch family sitting out the Trump candidacy, because one of the things they care most about is Amnesty for illegals and the free flow of people across borders so that they can exploit them as workers. For the elite nationalism goes in the wrong direction, it makes exploitation and building their wealth more difficult. Somehow in another they have convince the lefty elite that this is a good idea, not that this is saying much, as the current class of global elite seem to be none too bright.

You mean the wealthy elite like Trump or other billionaires? And people have great power to increase their wealth but voters seem to choose the politicians who have no interest in increasing the regular man's wealth.

And think the Koch brothers do not need workers from illegal immigration, they can get legal immigration. Their fight with the current Trumpist views is that even the Koch brothers realize that turning more and more Latino's into the warming embrace of the democrats is going to make it very difficult for the conservative goals that the Koch brothers have to ever become reality. If you just rely on white oldermen or poorly educated white people, read mostly men (because Trump loves poorly educated people), you will not win the presidency and even risk loosing the senate and in time the house to the Democrats because unlike the Trump/Tea party led republican party, they actually welcome Latino's, African Americans, gays, the ever growing atheist population, Asians and women in a manner the republican party does not. In fact the current version of the republican party is actively chasing most of these groups of people away from them.

And the "leftists" are actually very interested in make more people more better off rather than just making the rich richer.

Patrickt · Jun 21, 2016

Gaius46 said:
That pretty much nails it.

There's nothing wrong with loving your country until you let that love blind you to her faults and misdeeds - something a true patriot would not let happen

I would add, ...and use that love to justify hating others.

Empirica · Jun 29, 2016

MrT said:
Ever think it is nationalism that gets painted in a bad light specifically because I can reference Hitler or some other genocidal mass murderer as an example.

"Nationalism" had nothing to do with the genocidal mass murder of 6million Jews by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Party!

"The word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei"- In English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian

All 20th Century mass murderers were motivated by the same Socialist/Marxist/Communist political ideologies!

The total body count of Lenin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh and Adolf Hitler is estimated to be 100+million!

Kobie · Jun 29, 2016

Empirica said:
"Nationalism" had nothing to do with the genocidal mass murder of 6million Jews by Adolf Hitler's Nazi Party!

"The word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei"- In English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian

All 20th Century mass murderers were motivated by the same Socialist/Marxist/Communist political ideologies!

The total body count of Lenin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh and Adolf Hitler is estimated to be 100+million!

Are you claiming that Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot had the same ideology? And you expect to be taken seriously?

imyoda · Jun 30, 2016

Empirica said:
Merriam-Webster's definition of Nationalism appears to be quite reasonable to me!

In fact; I personally already identify with most of this stuff__Am I missing something?

Nationalism | Nationalism Definition by Merriam-Webster
Simple Definition of nationalism
: a feeling that people have of being loyal to and proud of their country often with the belief that it is better and more important than other countries
: a desire by a large group of people (such as people who share the same culture, history, language, etc.) to form a separate and independent nation of their own

Full Definition of nationalism
: loyalty and devotion to a nation;
: especially a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

It is often the reason for unnecessary wars..........for one

Empirica · Jul 5, 2016

imyoda said:
It is often the reason for unnecessary wars..........for one

What are some examples of wars, directly attributed to "Nationalism", to which you base this statement on?

Empirica · Jul 5, 2016

Kobie said:
Are you claiming that Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot had the same ideology? And you expect to be taken seriously?

Perhaps you could have taken me more seriously had you read the link I provided in the post you quoted:
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism-was-socialism-and-why-socialism-totalitarian

The aforementioned dictators initially promoted themselves and respective nations as "Socialists" but with the exception of Adolf Hitler, were actually full blown Communists_

Hitler clung to the delusion that "Socialism" had no ideo-political ties to "Communism" despite the fact that Karl Marx defined Socialism as being the stepping stone from Capitalism to Communism_

Socialism | Definition of Socialism by Merriam-Webster

Full Definition of socialism
1
: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2
a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property
b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3
: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

I'm sorry to have been the one to burst your bubble but now that it's done, welcome to the real world!

Mr Person · Jul 6, 2016

Empirica said:
Am I missing something?

Yes.

You're missing the part where nationalism turns into ultra-nationalism. This usually ends up resulting in totalitarian leaders coming into power, mass killings, and often enough a war or three.

May I recommend placing some history books alongside that dictionary of yours?

Empirica · Nov 16, 2016

Mr Person said:
Yes.

You're missing the part where nationalism turns into ultra-nationalism. This usually ends up resulting in totalitarian leaders coming into power, mass killings, and often enough a war or three.

May I recommend placing some history books alongside that dictionary of yours?

This sounds absolutely horrifying! :shock:

Could you cite an example of nationalism that turned into "ultra-nationalism"?

Empirica · Nov 16, 2016

Empirica said:
imyoda said:

It is often the reason for unnecessary wars..........for one

Click to expand...

What are some examples of wars, directly attributed to "Nationalism", to which you base this statement on?

It's been a long time, imyoda? I'm still waiting for your answer?

Surely you can back your statement up with an example of an "unnecessary war"?

Empirica · Nov 16, 2016

Kobie said:
Are you claiming that Hitler, Mao and Pol Pot had the same ideology? And you expect to be taken seriously?

No, that is not my claim...

What I'm claiming is that their respective ideologies were all rooted in the teachings of Marx.

This fact is clearly stated in the link I provided you; which I will submit again:

"The word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei"- In English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism...m-totalitarian

It is people like yourself (in denial of cold hard facts) who cannot be taken seriously.

The German Ideology by Karl Marx â€” Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists
The German Ideology
by Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels
Nearly two years before his powerful Communist Manifesto, Marx (1818-1883) co-wrote The German Ideology in 1845 with friend and collaborator Friedrich Engels expounding a new political worldview, including positions on materialism, labor, production, alienation, the expansion of capitalism, class conflict, revolution, and eventually communism. They chart the course of "true" socialism based on Hegel's dialectic, while criticizing the ideas of Bruno Bauer, Max Stirner and Ludwig Feuerbach.

TurtleDude · Nov 16, 2016

Empirica said:
It's been a long time, imyoda? I'm still waiting for your answer?

Surely you can back your statement up with an example of an "unnecessary war"?

he hasn't posted for a month.

EvaPeron · Nov 16, 2016

Empirica said:
Merriam-Webster's definition of Nationalism appears to be quite reasonable to me!

In fact; I personally already identify with most of this stuff__Am I missing something?

Nationalism | Nationalism Definition by Merriam-Webster
Simple Definition of nationalism
: a feeling that people have of being loyal to and proud of their country often with the belief that it is better and more important than other countries
: a desire by a large group of people (such as people who share the same culture, history, language, etc.) to form a separate and independent nation of their own

Full Definition of nationalism
: loyalty and devotion to a nation;
: especially a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups

Nationalism is a very good thing. I believe what others talk about is really not a negative of nationalism but instead a negative about human nature. What I mean is that Nationalism in and of itself is about believing in ones country. Not unlike believing in ones family or ones church or even ones school/football team.

Ignoring the importance of other countries and our need to work together as a larger entity, does not negate what it means to be a nationalist. I'm not sure why some people just tie the two together. You can have both individually of each other.

Empirica · Nov 16, 2016

jamesrage said:
The only people who find anything wrong with nationalism are globalist/internationalist scum.

Let's not forget those America hating Elitists. :usflag2:

Absentglare · Nov 16, 2016

Empirica said:
No, that is not my claim...

What I'm claiming is that their respective ideologies were all rooted in the teachings of Marx.

This fact is clearly stated in the link I provided you; which I will submit again:

"The word "Nazi" was an abbreviation for "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei"- In English translation: the National Socialist German Workers' Party
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism...m-totalitarian

It is people like yourself (in denial of cold hard facts) who cannot be taken seriously.

The German Ideology by Karl Marx — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists
The German Ideology
by Karl Marx, Friedrich Engels
Nearly two years before his powerful Communist Manifesto, Marx (1818-1883) co-wrote The German Ideology in 1845 with friend and collaborator Friedrich Engels expounding a new political worldview, including positions on materialism, labor, production, alienation, the expansion of capitalism, class conflict, revolution, and eventually communism. They chart the course of "true" socialism based on Hegel's dialectic, while criticizing the ideas of Bruno Bauer, Max Stirner and Ludwig Feuerbach.

No they weren't. You have no idea what you're talking about. What distinguishes Nazism is not its inherent Marxism. Your rhetorical argument is a complete and utter failure.

Empirica · Nov 16, 2016

EvaPeron said:
Nationalism is a very good thing. I believe what others talk about is really not a negative of nationalism but instead a negative about human nature. What I mean is that Nationalism in and of itself is about believing in ones country. Not unlike believing in ones family or ones church or even ones school/football team.

Ignoring the importance of other countries and our need to work together as a larger entity, does not negate what it means to be a nationalist. I'm not sure why some people just tie the two together. You can have both individually of each other.

Hi Eva and belated 'welcome aboard'! :2wave:

I took an autumn vacation from DP for a couple months. :notlook:

I was in bad need of a break from that crazy insane election. :wow:

My guy won of course...WooHoo! (I knew he would) :nails

Anyway; it's so nice ta finely mecha...Have a lovely day gf. :thumbs:

Empirica · Nov 16, 2016

Absentglare said:
No they weren't. You have no idea what you're talking about. What distinguishes Nazism is not its inherent Marxism. Your rhetorical argument is a complete and utter failure.

I beg your pardon! :wassat1: What distinguished "Nazism" was indeed textbook Marxism.

Disarming private citizens;
Government annexation of certain industries;
The state genocide of millions of people;
etc-etc-etc!

These were the policies of every single Communist government that came to power in the 20th Century!

And the National Socialist German Workers' Party was the Party of Adolf Hitler which later became the "Nazi Party" as an acronym for: "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei"

You don't have to take my word for it...Click the link:
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism...m-totalitarian

Absentglare · Nov 16, 2016

Empirica said:
I beg your pardon! :wassat1: What distinguished "Nazism" was indeed textbook Marxism.

Disarming private citizens;
Government annexation of certain industries;
The state genocide of millions of people;
etc-etc-etc!

These were the policies of every single Communist government that came to power in the 20th Century!

And the National Socialist German Workers' Party was the Party of Adolf Hitler which later became the "Nazi Party" as an acronym for: "der Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiters Partei"

You don't have to take my word for it...Click the link:
https://mises.org/library/why-nazism...m-totalitarian

No it wasn't. Marxists fought against the Nazis. Do you know anything about history?

What exactly is wrong with "Nationlism"?

jamesrage

apdst

fmw

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man

Gaius46

Hawkeye10

Buttermilk Man

Peter King

Peter King

Patrickt

Empirica

~Transcend~

Kobie

imyoda

Empirica

~Transcend~

Empirica

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Mr Person

A Little Bitter

Empirica

~Transcend~

Empirica

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Empirica

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TurtleDude

warrior of the wetlands

EvaPeron

Empirica

~Transcend~

Absentglare

Empirica

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Empirica

~Transcend~

Absentglare