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If True, The GOP War has begun

How is this entire system now a F'ing joke?
Winner takes all = two parties = dumb dumb dumb. This will never change, its a duopoly.
I would rather see representation, that means yes, if there is popular support for a single communist member of (whatever, parliament or whatever it is), that's fine. 3 labor party, 3 blue dogs, 3 conservatives, 3 libertarians, 1 neocon, I'm fine with that, at least it makes ****ing sense. But no, we have to parties and they get to choose by in large. Republicans can sit there and see a huge public support for Trump, then claim Republicans don't want Trump, it's maddening.

Further, those parties want to control the vote anyway. Super delegates for democrats? What? They can shift the vote away from grass roots without batting an eye. Democrats are OK with this? They should be outraged, embarrassed, shocked.

Republicans....oh boy, while they don't have that issue as much as Dems, apparently if this goes contested, they ARE able to also go their own way and ignore public opnion.

Your vote counts, as long as it goes where they want it to.
 
Thrilla said:
show us.... i'd like to see this panels declaration that ideological perversion from the right resulted in government failure/abdication of duties..... I'd like to see a report that utterly ignored the failure of city government to responsibly manage their finances, but instead blames "ideological perversion"...

it should be a good read.
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In an earlier post I linked to several articles from todays Free Press reporting on the results of the investigation and the downsizing of government at the behest of the republicans who run this state without opposition.

here it is again

Detroit Free Press

Read them. Its all there for you.

here is just a teeny tiny portion of it which is damning as hell

LANSING -- The drinking water and lab testing areas of the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality — the two sections of the agency most closely linked to the origins of the public health crisis in Flint — have fewer people and less money today than they had 10 years ago, even without accounting for the effects of inflation.
Did the gutting of the state civil service through years of budget cuts contribute to what happened in Flint, where DEQ mistakes are identified as the major factor in the city's drinking water getting contaminated with lead, starting in April of 2014?
Officials in the administration of Gov. Rick Snyder won't concede that, though they say reduced resources could be one factor among many. Snyder has called the Flint drinking water crisis a failure of state, local and federal government and has leveled most of his blame on "career bureaucrats" in the DEQ he said were more concerned about technical compliance than using common sense and making sure Flint's water was safe to drink.
But Snyder's task force on the Flint water crisis, in its final report on Wednesday, called on Snyder to ensure DEQ's drinking water office is adequately funded. The report said the office may have one of the smallest budgets in the Midwest, despite "having one of the largest, if not the largest, number of community water systems to regulate."
Records compiled by the Free Press from House Fiscal Agency reports show that for all measures except one, the two DEQ programs most relevant to Flint — the Office of Drinking Water and Municipal Assistance and Laboratory Services — were cut back more than the department as a whole was cut back, between 2006 and 2016.
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sangha said:
It just reaffirms the saying that when republicans campaign, they argue that govt is incompetent and when they hold office, they prove themselves right
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I tend to agree, to a point( it's a meme, not an actual argument)... but i'm neither Dem or Rep, so unlike you and haymarket, I don't ignore the severe incompetence, corruption, and mismanagement of Democrats in these cities whom are now under emergency management.... were Michigan Democrats actually good at governing, they wouldn't be in the situation they are now.
maybe it's not a matter of partisan ship.... maybe it's simply Michiganders are just really really bad at governing.

but more to my point, it's got nothing to do with ideological perversion... it's got a lot to do with well meaning government officials ( and career bureacrats) totally screwing the pooch in their duties...both Dem and Rep alike ( though mostly dem , in these cases)
 
haymarket said:
In an earlier post I linked to several articles from todays Free Press reporting on the results of the investigation and the downsizing of government at the behest of the republicans who run this state without opposition.

here it is again

Detroit Free Press

Read them. Its all there for you.

here is just a teeny tiny portion of it which is damning as hell
Click to expand...

you specifically said your argument came from a report issued by a panel.... please link to this report you specifically cited.
 
Ntharotep said:
Abolish political parties as the pointless, archaic tools they are and stop dividing the people into football cheerleaders. Vote on individuals instead of donkeys and elephants.
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i agree.
 
Thrilla said:
you specifically said your argument came from a report issued by a panel.... please link to this report you specifically cited.
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see post 52 as the link is there reporting on everything I have said......... and much much more.
 
Thrilla said:
show us.... i'd like to see this panels declaration that ideological perversion from the right resulted in government failure/abdication of duties..... I'd like to see a report that utterly ignored the failure of city government to responsibly manage their finances, but instead blames "ideological perversion"...

it should be a good read.
Click to expand...

This Times article on the report contains a link to the full report

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/24/us/flint-water-crisis.html?_r=0

which is here

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/03/23/us/document-Flint.html

An independent panel has concluded that disregard for the concerns of poor and minority people contributed to the government’s slow response to complaints from residents of Flint, Mich., about the foul and discolored water that was making them sick, determining that the crisis “is a story of government failure, intransigence, unpreparedness, delay, inaction and environmental injustice.”

The panel, which was appointed by Gov. Rick Snyder in October, when he first urged Flint’s nearly 100,000 residents to stop drinking the city’s tap water, laid blame for the water problems at the feet of government employees on every level.

Its report was released at a news conference Wednesday in Flint.

It particularly focused on state employees: analysts in charge of supervising water quality, state-appointed emergency managers who prized frugality over public safety, and staff members in the governor’s office who adopted a “whack a mole” attitude to beat away persistent reports of problems.

But the report also concluded that, “The facts of the Flint water crisis lead us to the inescapable conclusion that this is a case of environmental injustice.”

In making that declaration, the five-member panel put a spotlight on a long-running civil rights issue: whether minorities and the poor are treated differently when it comes to environmental matters, relegating them to some of the most dangerous places in the country: flood prone areas of New Orleans that were devastated after Hurricane Katrina; highly polluted parts of Detroit and the Bronx; and “Cancer Alley” in Louisiana, where residents who live near factories suffer disproportionately from disease.

It also validated complaints long argued by many Flint residents but largely dismissed by Mr. Snyder and others: that race and poverty contributed to the often scornful reactions to their complaints.

“Flint residents, who are majority black or African-American and among the most impoverished of any metropolitan area in the United States, did not enjoy the same degree of protection from environmental and health hazards as that provided to other communities,” the report concluded.

In an interview after the report’s release, Ken Sikkema, a panel member and former state legislator, said the panel sought to raise a general alarm about the role of race and income, and to highlight inequities that may emerge in environmental responses.

“It needed to be addressed,” Mr. Sikkema said. “It’s not just race, it’s income status, too. Low-income people shouldn’t be subject to a different level of environmental protection than high-income people.”

Representative Dan Kildee, a Democrat whose district includes Flint, said he welcomed the panel’s pointed attention to the issue. “It’s certainly true from my perspective,” he said. “I could not imagine this happening in an affluent community that was not a majority-minority community and the same reaction occurring.”

Many of the panel’s other findings reiterated facts and ideas that had emerged in thousands of pages of documents, and several congressional hearings, about bureaucratic indifference and mistakes that not only caused the crisis but prolonged it. More investigations are continuing, with the possibility of criminal charges, and the report notes that other investigators with subpoena powers might unearth even more egregious information.
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Very very damning. Penny wise and pound foolish it would appear.
 
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haymarket said:
see post 52 as the link is there reporting on everything I have said......... and much much more.
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So for 30 years Flint did nothing to upgrade its water system and the blame falls on the people in charge for the last 2-3 years? No, I don't think so, plenty of blame to go around.
 
Yet another example of how government is ****ed up.

If i want water, I pay for water. If its ****ty water, I pay the person who delivers clean water. Enter government sympathizers.

" Pay more taxes and we could have given you clean water...after the fact we'll say this, har har".

WTF haymarket. Now that you're retired, admit government, public education, etc., is the cluster **** we all know it is. (I'm not really asking you to, you know I love you).
 
haymarket said:
In an earlier post I linked to several articles from todays Free Press reporting on the results of the investigation and the downsizing of government at the behest of the republicans who run this state without opposition.

here it is again

Detroit Free Press

Read them. Its all there for you.

here is just a teeny tiny portion of it which is damning as hell
Click to expand...

I prefer to stick ot the actual report to form my opinion, but i read your article nonetheless.... I think folks should read the whole article, lest they be left with the idea that your cherry picked blurb is the entirely of the issue... it's most definitely not.

I also think it's pertinent to add that you argument of " ideological perversion" only exist in your head.... it's a conclusion you personally drew from the information, it's NOT a conclusion drawn by any of these articles, or the report( at least not in the executive summary)... in fact, the very article you quoted here specifically states that significant budget drawdowns occurred under the prior governor, a Democrat... who, according to you, is also suffering from " the ideological perversion on the right".

so yes, people should read the articles and hte report... but they should utterly ignore you.
once again, you got busted being a partisan hack.... and to make it worse, you're being a partisan hack over a very serious issue where people have actually been harmed significantly.... you oughta be ashamed of yourself.
 
OpportunityCost said:
So for 30 years Flint did nothing to upgrade its water system and the blame falls on the people in charge for the last 2-3 years? No, I don't think so, plenty of blame to go around.
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proving that denial is not just a river in Egypt.
 
Thrilla said:
I prefer to stick ot the actual report to form my opinion, but i read your article nonetheless.... I think folks should read the whole article, lest they be left with the idea that your cherry picked blurb is the entirely of the issue... it's most definitely not.

I also think it's pertinent to add that you argument of " ideological perversion" only exist in your head.... it's a conclusion you personally drew from the information, it's NOT a conclusion drawn by any of these articles, or the report( at least not in the executive summary)... in fact, the very article you quoted here specifically states that significant budget drawdowns occurred under the prior governor, a Democrat... who, according to you, is also suffering from " the ideological perversion on the right".

so yes, people should read the articles and hte report... but they should utterly ignore you.
once again, you got busted being a partisan hack.... and to make it worse, you're being a partisan hack over a very serious issue where people have actually been harmed significantly.... you oughta be ashamed of yourself.
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NO - I worked in Lansing with the state legislature for three years during this period and know of what I speak.
 
no big deal, just means the republican party will be left with 3 voters; jeb bush, marco rubio, and ted cruz. everyone else will form a new trump party and move on with our lives.
 
haymarket said:
Keep your attacks to yourself. I have no interest in your personal pettiness and you long ago lost credibility.
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YOU made the attack, I simply turned it back on you. Can the hypocrisy.
 
OpportunityCost said:
YOU made the attack, I simply turned it back on you. Can the hypocrisy.
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Pointing out that YOU were in denial rejecting the findings of the special panel for Flint is not an attack.

Just go away. I don't care where. you long ago lost any shred of credibility.
 
haymarket said:
Pointing out that YOU were in denial rejecting the findings of the special panel for Flint is not an attack.

Just go away. I don't care where. you long ago lost any shred of credibility.
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Rejecting that this problem started long before then is denial. Speaking of credibility, we know you put party before everything, don't you?
 
OpportunityCost said:
Rejecting that this problem started long before then is denial. Speaking of credibility, we know you put party before everything, don't you?
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Your delusional beliefs mean nothing to me.
 
haymarket said:
Your delusional beliefs mean nothing to me.
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Yes or no, the water issue began when the emergency manager took over?

Articulate how the Flint infrastructure has been improved in the last 30 years before then.

I know when I see someone demanding that one side is to blame and it isn't ever their side, they have bias on the brain.
 
OpportunityCost said:
Yes or no, the water issue began when the emergency manager took over?

Articulate how the Flint infrastructure has been improved in the last 30 years before then.

I know when I see someone demanding that one side is to blame and it isn't ever their side, they have bias on the brain.
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You have no credibility on this or any other issue as you reject the very findings of the governors own panel which criticizes him for his actions.

You pretend that you in your infinite wisdom sitting on high from afar knows more than the panel who studied this issue in depth.

Truly a disgusting display of amazing arrogance fueled by ideology and ego.
 
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haymarket said:
You have no credibility on this or any other issue as you reject the very findings of the governors own panel which criticizes him for his actions.

You pretend that you in your infinite wisdom sitting on high from afar knows more than the panel who studied this issue in depth.

Truly a disgusting display of amazing arrogance fueled by ideology and ego.
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Care to address the topic AT ALL?
 
Absentglare said:
The problem that i see is that Cruz is no better than Trump.

They needed Kasich to actually gain some popularity.
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But Kasich isn't anywhere near as popular as he for some reason thinks he is.
Even in his home state he didn't get 50% of the vote in the primary. yes he won but certainly it wasn't any show of huge popularity.
 
haymarket said:
have done so repeatedly.
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Until I asked questions you didn't like then you began talking about me rather than the topic or the questions.

The problem with the Flint infrastructure is not a recent one. The city council has not made many real changes in decades. Both sides hold some culpability for this debacle as both contributed to the state of the water system. Agree or disagree and make a case.
 
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