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Hitler

Well, the health care reform is leftist but you'll know you've elected a Liberal president when the first thing he does is flush the Patriot Act. For starters.



The Patriot act seems to me to be an intrusion into the freedoms of individuals and an attack on the guarantees laid out by the Bill of Rights.

Canceling the Patriot Act would be the work of a Conservative, small government proponent.

Obama seems to be working hard to accomplish certain very targeted goals and these seem to be anti business and anti progress.

He talks about justice and fairness, but his methods and goals do not seem related to either of these. It seems more like a strong campaign of get-even-ism.

He is constantly attacking those that he has identified as enemies and seemingly unaware of the traditional duties and goals of his office.
 
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The Patriot act seems to me to be an intrusion into the freedoms of individuals and an attack on the guarantees laid out by the Bill of Rights.

Canceling the Patriot Act would be the work of a Conservative, small government proponent.

Conservatives aren't small-government proponents or champions of individual freedoms. Conservatives bequeathed us all with bloated governments and corporations, way too many laws and way too many taxes. Liberals have always stood for rights and freedoms and keeping the government the hell out of everyone's lives.

Obama seems to be working hard to accomplish certain very targeted goals and these seem to be anti business and anti progress.

He talks about justice and fairness, but his methods and goals do not seem related to either of these. It seems more like a strong campaign of get-even-ism.

He is constantly attacking those that he has identified as enemies and seemingly unaware of the traditional duties and goals of his office.

I don't care about the duties of his office, I'm Canadian. I've been liberal all my life and I hesitate to call him liberal. He's left, sure, and no conservative but it's not an either/or situation.
 
Conservatives aren't small-government proponents or champions of individual freedoms. Conservatives bequeathed us all with bloated governments and corporations, way too many laws and way too many taxes. Liberals have always stood for rights and freedoms and keeping the government the hell out of everyone's lives.



I don't care about the duties of his office, I'm Canadian. I've been liberal all my life and I hesitate to call him liberal. He's left, sure, and no conservative but it's not an either/or situation.



You seem to be defining Liberal under the Classical Terms instead of the reality of what a government must do to enact a liberal Agenda.

You do seem to understand it, but don't realize that you do. The growth of government in the USA was put on Steroids by FDR. Liberals in the USA combat large Corporations with bloated government.

By definition, too many laws is the result of government activism and therefore leftists.

In the US, the left has exercised the power of government to intrude into everyone's lives. They do this in the name of "rights and freedoms" as you say, but as the size and power of government increases, the rights and freedoms of individuals are reduced.

We are now left with a NSA/CIA/FBI alliance that listens to my cell phone conversations with my wife on who will pick up the kids while the intentions of Putin to invade the Ukraine go unnoticed.

This is Liberalism in the USA.
 
My condolences.

Oh, I'll struggle with it but you just do me the favour of never coming north, okay? You'd hate it here, anyway.
 
You seem to be defining Liberal under the Classical Terms instead of the reality of what a government must do to enact a liberal Agenda.

You do seem to understand it, but don't realize that you do. The growth of government in the USA was put on Steroids by FDR. Liberals in the USA combat large Corporations with bloated government.

By definition, too many laws is the result of government activism and therefore leftists.

In the US, the left has exercised the power of government to intrude into everyone's lives. They do this in the name of "rights and freedoms" as you say, but as the size and power of government increases, the rights and freedoms of individuals are reduced.

We are now left with a NSA/CIA/FBI alliance that listens to my cell phone conversations with my wife on who will pick up the kids while the intentions of Putin to invade the Ukraine go unnoticed.

This is Liberalism in the USA.

I've heard this 'classical liberal' line before, usually from a conservative American who's had it pointed out to him that his country was founded by liberals on liberal values and wants to say, "No, wait, I'm one of those guys!" And then, just to add to his confusion, he forgets altogether what the word 'liberal' means and gathers up all the things he doesn't like and calls the pile liberalism.
Here's an example of how it is- in Canada while the Liberal Party formed the government they brought down eight or nine successive surplus budgets but now, with the Conservative Party in power, the federal government is operating on a deficit again. Conservatives- big government, big budgets.
 
You seem to be defining Liberal under the Classical Terms instead of the reality of what a government must do to enact a liberal Agenda.

You do seem to understand it, but don't realize that you do. The growth of government in the USA was put on Steroids by FDR. Liberals in the USA combat large Corporations with bloated government.

By definition, too many laws is the result of government activism and therefore leftists.

In the US, the left has exercised the power of government to intrude into everyone's lives. They do this in the name of "rights and freedoms" as you say, but as the size and power of government increases, the rights and freedoms of individuals are reduced.

We are now left with a NSA/CIA/FBI alliance that listens to my cell phone conversations with my wife on who will pick up the kids while the intentions of Putin to invade the Ukraine go unnoticed.

This is Liberalism in the USA.

Conservatives and centrists supported the Patriot Act and other post-9/11 measures imposed during the Bush II administration that took away our privacy and due process rights. Liberals, including organizations such as the ACLU and Amnesty International have been fighting against those measures since before they were passed. Most conservatives continued to support the Patriot Act and other post-9/11 measures that took away our privacy and due process rights until they became Obama's policies. Most conservatives are still supportive of torture murder and imprisonment without due process.

It has been the right that has primarily supported government intrusion into everyone's lives with their support of blue laws, mandatory prayer in schools, sodomy laws, drug laws, laws allowing discrimination against minorities, women, gays and political dissenters, and laws that erode our right to privacy and due process.

How can the power of corporations be limited without a government strong enough to enforce the law? Or do you support unlimited corporate power?
 
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Hitler based his political career on bashing Communists. If you see any pics of Nazi demonstrations, half of them would have signs denouncing Jews and Communists.

No doubt. And at Communist rallies the denunciations would be of the Social Democrats and National Socialists.

Hitler gained the support of the industrialists when they were convinced that he would become the bulwark against the Communists.

At the point of which the only options available were to be a prisoner for life, or to face the firing squad. The choice seems obvious.

He also gained the support of the military after the Knight of the Long Knives for his purging of the more radical and socialist elements of the party.

The National Socialists never trusted the military- and with good reason. It was a hotbed of treason and insurrection.

When the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was announced, it astonished the whole world as the two were mortal enemies.

It did indeed.
Nobody should have been surprised.

They were only united on the grounds of wanting to destroy the Versailles Treaty and the order it imposed on Europe


So no, Nazis and Communists weren't buddies,

In the Reichtag, KPD nd NSDP deputies were always palling around off the floor-- Goering was a good friend of Thalman, head of the Communists.

they were mortal enemies at each other's throats.

Yep-- National Socialism versus International Socialism. In the scheme of things, not that much of a divide (hell, even Marx was a bit of a nationalist).

Nazis were also extreme right-wingers in how they were extreme conservatives (which despite what Americans think, is not about govt control at all but all about keeping the old order and tradition)

What is tradition of a single, unified German state? Such unification was always the progressive objective throughout the 19th Century.

They also classified their enemies by race while the Communists classified them by class.

Yes. two sides of the same coin. Is that divide greater than of those who reject nationalist and class theories? Of course not.
 
You seem to be defining Liberal under the Classical Terms instead of the reality of what a government must do to enact a liberal Agenda.

You do seem to understand it, but don't realize that you do. The growth of government in the USA was put on Steroids by FDR. Liberals in the USA combat large Corporations with bloated government.

By definition, too many laws is the result of government activism and therefore leftists.

In the US, the left has exercised the power of government to intrude into everyone's lives. They do this in the name of "rights and freedoms" as you say, but as the size and power of government increases, the rights and freedoms of individuals are reduced.

We are now left with a NSA/CIA/FBI alliance that listens to my cell phone conversations with my wife on who will pick up the kids while the intentions of Putin to invade the Ukraine go unnoticed.

This is Liberalism in the USA.

That's absurd. It's neither liberalism nor conservatism, it's statism. And no, conservatism and statism are not mutually exclusive.
 
That's absurd. It's neither liberalism nor conservatism, it's statism. And no, conservatism and statism are not mutually exclusive.



Of the two prevailing political philosophies in the country today, which one, Liberal or Conservative, is more devoted to growing the power of the central government.

Conversely, which philosophy is more devoted to devolving power from the Federal Level to the State Level?
 
Of the two prevailing political philosophies in the country today, which one, Liberal or Conservative, is more devoted to growing the power of the central government.

Conversely, which philosophy is more devoted to devolving power from the Federal Level to the State Level?

I've seen little indication that conservatives have much interest in reducing federal authority.
 
I've heard this 'classical liberal' line before, usually from a conservative American who's had it pointed out to him that his country was founded by liberals on liberal values and wants to say, "No, wait, I'm one of those guys!" And then, just to add to his confusion, he forgets altogether what the word 'liberal' means and gathers up all the things he doesn't like and calls the pile liberalism.
Here's an example of how it is- in Canada while the Liberal Party formed the government they brought down eight or nine successive surplus budgets but now, with the Conservative Party in power, the federal government is operating on a deficit again. Conservatives- big government, big budgets.



You are talking about two things that I am not talking about: Canada and political parties.

In the United States, a conservative of Today is far more Liberal than any of the founders in terms of public assistance, taxation, Federal Power or any other topic you might care to mention.

Is there a particular topic you would like to cite that you think the Founders in general or a particular one if you might care to name him that you feel they held a modern day Liberal position on?

Gay rights? Women's equality? Minority rights? Federal Power? Gun control? Increased taxation? What topic(s) are you referring to?

You can't just pronounce something to be true when it's obviously false.
 
I've seen little indication that conservatives have much interest in reducing federal authority.



I've seen little indication that there are many Conservatives involved in American Politics at the Federal level in either party.

This is probably why the Federal outlays double in 10 years and the lying thieves we elect all retire as millionaires.
 
I was reading an online blog the other day and Hitler was mentioned.

Now I am over fifty years old and this was a first for me. This guy referred to Hitler as if he was from the left, politically speaking. I think the blogger was American, but I am not positive.

It amazes me that there are people that do not know that extreme right is Fascism and extreme left is communism.


Has anyone here ever heard anyone try to claim that Hitler was anything but extreme right?

Well, a few things on this...

First, the notions of Liberal and Conservative from an American perspective, in terms of how they're colloquially used when discussing modern politics, doesn’t always match up with the world or even with the historic definitions.

Second, at least in most American discussions I’ve seen, “conservative” and “liberal” define policy views as much as it describes a way of thinking or political ideology of sorts. For many, being pro-life is “Conservative” and being pro-drug legalization is “liberal” because the POLICIES that represent those views typically come from one “side” or the other in the US. But it’s entirely possible ideologically for a liberal to come upon a pro-life stance, or a conservative to come upon a pro-legalization stance.

Third, thinking of the political spectrum as a linear line is a bit misguided imho. And even when you’re looking at a singular line rather than a XY type of plain, I’d still say it’s a line that’s connected on both ends forming an ellipse. Go too far either direction and you tend to come out the other end.

Fourth, one has to understand that when you’re dealing with American politics things are said typically for political reasons and not legitimate discourse. Both sides have a great history of attempting to tie anything and everything about the other side to “Hitler” or “Nazi’s” in some fashion, because the assumption is it’ll prove detrimental to their political “enemies”. There is a highly understandable emotional attachment to both of those terms that is invoked in people upon hearing them. Both sides at times try to utilize this emotional attachment by trying to tie the other side to it, so that when you think of [x] you experience a similar subconscious emotional reaction as you do when you hear Hitler. There is almost zero situations where Hitler and/or Nazi’s are literally the only comparison that’s available. The choice to use them instead of a more benign comparison generally has no legitimate reason OTHER than to attempt to tie that emotional connection to the target.

Despite their technical difference, often “Conservative” and “Liberal” is simply a different way of saying “republican” and “democrat”. Comparing modern Democrats or Republicans, by and large, in the US to Nazi’s in some factor is hyperbole aimed at stirring an emotional response and does a disservice to those ideologies, to the people in this country, and even to the history surrounding Nazism. It’s akin to those who try to compare people against Gay Marriage to people who KILL homosexuals threw stoning simply for being homosexuals…or people who try to compare welfare payments as colonial style slavery.

Because both sides wantonly attempt to connect contemporary, modern, mainstream political sides to Nazi’s, both sides also have people who seem to go out of their way to point the finger back at the other side trying to change up the conversation. Altogether, it’s kind of sad.

Fifth, the realities is that the Nazi Regime has certain aspects to it that can correlate in various ways to both the Republicans and Democrats here in America, but are a poor direct comparison to either. Attempting to talk about the Nazi regime from an American perspective, and using the term “right” or “left” without giving clear and obvious deference to the fact that it’s a far cry from what either side is in America today, is nothing but pure hyperbolic hackery.
 
You are talking about two things that I am not talking about: Canada and political parties.

In the United States, a conservative of Today is far more Liberal than any of the founders in terms of public assistance, taxation, Federal Power or any other topic you might care to mention.

Is there a particular topic you would like to cite that you think the Founders in general or a particular one if you might care to name him that you feel they held a modern day Liberal position on?

Gay rights? Women's equality? Minority rights? Federal Power? Gun control? Increased taxation? What topic(s) are you referring to?

You can't just pronounce something to be true when it's obviously false.

"Gay rights? Women's equality? Minority rights?" You bet. Equal rights for all. The fact that conservatives oppose those things just illustrates how far they've strayed from the values the country was founded on.
"Federal Power?" Not a liberal thing. Conservatives are advocates of big, strong government- liberals fight for less government.
" Gun control?" Definitely not a liberal thing. Who do you think the armed rebels have always been, conservatives? That's a joke.
"Increased taxation?" Again, liberals have always been opposed to taxation, laws, government control.
You need to look this stuff up. You can't just say that anything you disagree with is liberal.
 
"Gay rights? Women's equality? Minority rights?" You bet. Equal rights for all. The fact that conservatives oppose those things just illustrates how far they've strayed from the values the country was founded on.
"Federal Power?" Not a liberal thing. Conservatives are advocates of big, strong government- liberals fight for less government.
" Gun control?" Definitely not a liberal thing. Who do you think the armed rebels have always been, conservatives? That's a joke.
"Increased taxation?" Again, liberals have always been opposed to taxation, laws, government control.
You need to look this stuff up. You can't just say that anything you disagree with is liberal.



In order to exercise Liberal goals, you need to have a robust and active government. You are right that the concepts of individual liberty are written in a document that is more than 200 years old.

A Conservative wants that Document to be viewed as the law of the land.

Anytime a person advocates a departure from the concepts put forth in the Constitution, that person moves away from Conservatism. This is the test of what a Conservative is. Apply it to any topic. As a person wants to use the power of government to constrain the free exercise of any right guaranteed under the Bill of Rights, that person moves away from being a Conservative.

Read the first amendment and apply it to what the government is currently doing:

Text

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
or abridging the freedom of speech,
or of the press;
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]

Congress shall make no law This is the most beautiful phrase in the English language.
respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; See obamacare, Edward Snowden revelations
or abridging the freedom of speech, NSA wire taps, IRS targeting and intimidation
or of the press; campaign against FOX, the case against Rosen, AP Scandal
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble,
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.[1]

These things are just off the top of my head. I'm sure the list could swell dramatically with a little research. And NO. I am not saying that Obama is the first president to ever depart from the ideals of the founders.


IF you are holding up the ideals of the Founders as represented by the ideals they committed to law in the Constitution as repressing what a Liberal strives to achieve, you Stand with Rand and thus are proclaiming Rand Paul to be a Liberal. I'm not sure that you know that this is what you are doing.

You can pretty much do this with any of the amendments in the Bill of Rights. This is why the State Controlled program of Education is moving away from teaching history in favor of teaching political doctrine.

The Bill of Rights is designed and exists to limit the power of government over the states and the individuals who live there. The Federal Government strives continuously to tear down the guarantees contained in the Bill of Rights.
 
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I've heard this 'classical liberal' line before, usually from a conservative American who's had it pointed out to him that his country was founded by liberals on liberal values and wants to say, "No, wait, I'm one of those guys!" And then, just to add to his confusion, he forgets altogether what the word 'liberal' means and gathers up all the things he doesn't like and calls the pile liberalism.
Here's an example of how it is- in Canada while the Liberal Party formed the government they brought down eight or nine successive surplus budgets but now, with the Conservative Party in power, the federal government is operating on a deficit again. Conservatives- big government, big budgets.

If you did a little research, you woild know it's not a line...


"Classical liberalism is a political philosophy and ideology belonging to liberalism in which primary emphasis is placed on securing the freedom of the individual by limiting the power of the government."

Classical liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Liberalism is the capitalist cloak when things are going as well as they go under this insane system. The inevitable slumps mean fascism of one kind or another is put in charge, when the armed scumbags attack working people and their organisations. Hitler was the saviour of capitalism and - therefore - of classical liberalism. The beast has two heads, like so many other freaks.
 
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