Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22 p/h

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Explain to me how the fast food industry (about $117 billion a year in sales) is supposed to function when the guy layering the meat, lettuce, and cheese into your taco shell is making $22 an hour?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Paschendale said:

I always like how assertions like these assume that profits cannot ever be allowed to decrease. Higher wages does not have to translate to higher prices. Only higher wagers and continuing the vast profits reaped by corporate owners translate to higher prices. Those profiteers do not deserve, work for, or earn those outrageous profits. There is no reason why the rest of us should scrimp and save to subsidize others living the high life.

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Those profits are largely reinvested into the company or into the fed's ability to continue spending money it doesn't have. Private corporations are one of the largest holders of U.S. debt. But hey! Let's go ahead and kill profits...let's go ahead and allow China MORE financial leverage...'cause the govt. sure as hell won't DECREASE spending 'cause U.S. companies don't have the money to buy the debt...they'll just raise interest rates through the friggin' roof to attract the few who can still afford to play...which will then, of course, screw over Joe Blow and anybody else trying to buy a big ticket item....like a house, or a car.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

tessaesque said:

Explain to me how the fast food industry (about $117 billion a year in sales) is supposed to function when the guy layering the meat, lettuce, and cheese into your taco shell is making $22 an hour?

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Who cares. Get rid of them all. The food is garbage, anyway.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Another thought. The competition for minimum wage jobs, like anything else in a free market system, is other low earning unskilled workers. In the US at present, those jobs are more often than not filled by unskilled labor in the market illegally. Reduce the number of illegals, you tilt the system in the other direction, and the problem will be solved without the government doing anything other than the job they were sworn to do.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

jimbo said:

Another thought. The competition for minimum wage jobs, like anything else in a free market system, is other low earning unskilled workers. In the US at present, those jobs are more often than not filled by unskilled labor in the market illegally. Reduce the number of illegals, you tilt the system in the other direction, and the problem will be solved without the government doing anything other than the job they were sworn to do.

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I sincerely doubt you're going to find a significant enough decrease in available labor at the minimum wage rate in fast food restaurants. Unemployment among young people (unskilled, low-wage workers by nature) is over 16%.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Bonzai said:

I managed a Subway.................I can only say that it was nothing more than a destroyer of the work ethic, and I had alot of employees that started out as really great workers.....................

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Care to explain.

without further clarification, I read this as a incompetent manager.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

tessaesque said:

I sincerely doubt you're going to find a significant enough decrease in available labor at the minimum wage rate in fast food restaurants. Unemployment among young people (unskilled, low-wage workers by nature) is over 16%.

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The number of unemployed young people is nearly the same as the number of illegals in those jobs.

It"s a vicious cycle. Government attempts to regulate the low end job with the minimum wage, which in turn makes the jobs more attractive to those willing to work for less, in many cases illegally here, which in turn leads to increasing the welfare to those out of work, which makes it less desirable for them to be employed. Or, those jobs get sent elsewhere where the labor cost is less.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

jimbo said:

The number of unemployed young people is nearly the same as the number of illegals in those jobs.

It"s a vicious cycle. Government attempts to regulate the low end job with the minimum wage, which in turn makes the jobs more attractive to those willing to work for less, in many cases illegally here, which in turn leads to increasing the welfare to those out of work, which makes it less desirable for them to be employed. Or, those jobs get sent elsewhere where the labor cost is less.

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You're vastly overestimating the number of illegal immigrants who (1) work, and (2) work in fast food.

There are an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants. Of them, many are minor children (non-workers), some stay at home to care for young children (also non-workers), and some are incarcerated (also non-workers). So let's say we've got 8 million in the work force.

Looked at another way, we have 155 million jobs, and illegal immigrants take up an estimated 5% (or 7,750,000). Of that 7.75 million, you've got some in labor (construction, farming, etc), some in housekeeping, some in skilled positions, and some in fast food. So even being GENEROUS, let's say we have 5 million illegal immigrants working in fast food.

As of 2010 (most recent data I could find doing a quick search), we had roughly 42.25 million people aged 15-24. If they are experiencing 16% unemployment, that means 6.76 million of them are unemployed. So no, not "nearly the same".

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

tessaesque said:

You're vastly overestimating the number of illegal immigrants who (1) work, and (2) work in fast food.

There are an estimated 12 million illegal immigrants. Of them, many are minor children (non-workers), some stay at home to care for young children (also non-workers), and some are incarcerated (also non-workers). So let's say we've got 8 million in the work force.

Looked at another way, we have 155 million jobs, and illegal immigrants take up an estimated 5% (or 7,750,000). Of that 7.75 million, you've got some in labor (construction, farming, etc), some in housekeeping, some in skilled positions, and some in fast food. So even being GENEROUS, let's say we have 5 million illegal immigrants working in fast food.

As of 2010 (most recent data I could find doing a quick search), we had roughly 42.25 million people aged 15-24. If they are experiencing 16% unemployment, that means 6.76 million of them are unemployed. So no, not "nearly the same".

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The estimates I have seen range from 10 million to 20 million, depending on the date of the estimate and the estimator and the possible agenda. By most accounts, illegal border crossings have decreased or at least slowed down. But either way, if those jobs were going to legal entry level youths, by your estimate we would have an increase of nearly 8 million entry level jobs. Whether or not the jobs are in fast food or elsewhere doesn't matter. They are unskilled. It takes no more or less talent to drive a nail than it does to flip a burger. If we have 6.75 million youths unemployed, that means we would have enough jobs for all of them. By your figures, 8 million jobs (actually 7.75), and tossing out the skilled, we still have more jobs going to illegals than there are unemployed youths. The real challenge would be to wean those unemployed youths off government or parental assistance into what is perceived as low end go nowhere jobs. The former is true, the latter not necessarily. Store managers in fast food have an opportunity to be promoted, and many of the managers started as floor sweepers. This should be stressed. The same holds true in construction. Supervisors often start driving nails.

The other factor is simply that we are discussing those jobs nailed to the ground. Other countries cannot build the homes or send us burgers. The real problem with minimum wage is that when labor costs gets too much over the global market, those jobs go elsewhere, never to return.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

jimbo said:

The estimates I have seen range from 10 million to 20 million, depending on the date of the estimate and the estimator and the possible agenda. By most accounts, illegal border crossings have decreased or at least slowed down. But either way, if those jobs were going to legal entry level youths, by your estimate we would have an increase of nearly 8 million entry level jobs. Whether or not the jobs are in fast food or elsewhere doesn't matter. They are unskilled. It takes no more or less talent to drive a nail than it does to flip a burger. If we have 6.75 million youths unemployed, that means we would have enough jobs for all of them. By your figures, 8 million jobs (actually 7.75), and tossing out the skilled, we still have more jobs going to illegals than there are unemployed youths. The real challenge would be to wean those unemployed youths off government or parental assistance into what is perceived as low end go nowhere jobs. The former is true, the latter not necessarily. Store managers in fast food have an opportunity to be promoted, and many of the managers started as floor sweepers. This should be stressed. The same holds true in construction. Supervisors often start driving nails.

The other factor is simply that we are discussing those jobs nailed to the ground. Other countries cannot build the homes or send us burgers. The real problem with minimum wage is that when labor costs gets too much over the global market, those jobs go elsewhere, never to return.

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There would be no increase in jobs. The number of jobs would not change. The only thing that changes is who fills the position.

That said, the rest of your argument seems to have little to do with the original statement, and actually refutes the idea from your original post, or else the ideas in your original post were not clearly stated. The point being made was that most jobs that pay minimum wage will not increase pay w/o government intervention, and rightly so...because most of those jobs require very little training or skill or responsibility and can be filled by almost any human with a pulse (some of 'em don't even really need a HUMAN to perform the task). As my point clearly demonstrated (and as you've conceded), most minimum wage jobs will have no shortage of those willing to take them on...meaning the demand for the jobs will stay high, keeping wages low.

So you have two factors at work: (1) employers won't pay more than the skill/job is worth, and low skill jobs are worth low wages, and (2) a saturated job market provides absolutely no incentive to use higher wages as a means of attracting employees.

All of that said, your sentence "we still have more jobs going to illegals than there are unemployed youths"...doesn't negate my point, and kind of indicates that my point was missed. Most youths are not going to seek housekeeping or hard labor jobs. They're going after retail and fast food, an area which I've already indicated is employing illegal immigrant numbers far below unemployed youth numbers.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

TheDemSocialist said:

We have always been told is that in the American dream if you work hard youll make it, youll get paid more. American dream? More like the American myth. [/COLOR][/FONT]
[/INDENT]

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Nobody ever told me that a minimum wage job would magically turn into success. It's a stepping stone. Do you have any idea what would happen to prices and jobs if minimum wage were $22.00? You can't even be serious.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

tessaesque said:

There would be no increase in jobs. The number of jobs would not change. The only thing that changes is who fills the position.

That said, the rest of your argument seems to have little to do with the original statement, and actually refutes the idea from your original post, or else the ideas in your original post were not clearly stated. The point being made was that most jobs that pay minimum wage will not increase pay w/o government intervention, and rightly so...because most of those jobs require very little training or skill or responsibility and can be filled by almost any human with a pulse (some of 'em don't even really need a HUMAN to perform the task). As my point clearly demonstrated (and as you've conceded), most minimum wage jobs will have no shortage of those willing to take them on...meaning the demand for the jobs will stay high, keeping wages low.

So you have two factors at work: (1) employers won't pay more than the skill/job is worth, and low skill jobs are worth low wages, and (2) a saturated job market provides absolutely no incentive to use higher wages as a means of attracting employees.

All of that said, your sentence "we still have more jobs going to illegals than there are unemployed youths"...doesn't negate my point, and kind of indicates that my point was missed. Most youths are not going to seek housekeeping or hard labor jobs. They're going after retail and fast food, an area which I've already indicated is employing illegal immigrant numbers far below unemployed youth numbers.

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I don't think I said that jobs would increase, rather that supply would dry up. True that youth goes after those jobs most desirable, even at entry level, and in general the best and brightest get them. I am simply stating that if we had less supply going to those who don't belong here, there would be more jobs available to those most unemployed. I also believe that if government was not involved in the job market, whether by subsidizing not working, or by attempting to artificially determine a proper wage, there would be more US citizens willing to take those low wage jobs.

One last note. As regards the minimum wage, if employers are unwilling to provide jobs at the current minimum level, why would they provide more jobs if the minimum wage was increased?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

MaggieD said:

Nobody ever told me that a minimum wage job would magically turn into success. It's a stepping stone. Do you have any idea what would happen to prices and jobs if minimum wage were $22.00? You can't even be serious.

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I never said it should be raised to $22.00 nor did i state that it would lead to automatic sucess. The thing is in the past wages have kept up with productivity. In the past 20-30 years wages have remained stagnant, not only for minimum wage jobs for the overall middle and working class wages as well.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

TheDemSocialist said:

I never said it should be raised to $22.00 nor did i state that it would lead to automatic sucess. The thing is in the past wages have kept up with productivity. In the past 20-30 years wages have remained stagnant, not only for minimum wage jobs for the overall middle and working class wages as well.

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What do you think the minimum wage should be?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Lets examine the other side of te coin.

You call a plumbing company.

They send a licensed plumber to your house with an apprentice who is paid minimum wage.

The plumber tells the ojt apprentice what to do and then leaves until he is finished.

The plumbing company charges you full scale plumbing wages for work that was done by the minimum wage helper.

Same goes for lawyers who charge 400 dollars perhour for work done by minimum wage secretaries.

This I have observed from personal experience.

Not all minimum wage woekers work in the fast food industry.A lot of them perform highly skilled work and are exploited.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Well, if you think about it, those productivity gains might have a lot more to do with the advent of IT than with workers magically producing twice or three times as much.

But of course, to Sen. Warren the worker is always the victim and the employer always the oppressor.

Where's my vomit can when I need it.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

LiberalAvenger said:

Lets examine the other side of te coin.

You call a plumbing company.

They send a licensed plumber to your house with an apprentice who is paid minimum wage.

The plumber tells the ojt apprentice what to do and then leaves until he is finished.

The plumbing company charges you full scale plumbing wages for work that was done by the minimum wage helper.

Same goes for lawyers who charge 400 dollars perhour for work done by minimum wage secretaries.

This I have observed from personal experience.

Not all minimum wage woekers work in the fast food industry.A lot of them perform highly skilled work and are exploited.

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I don't believe a secretaries for a $400 lawyer are paid min. wage. You would have to provide documention other than you have personal experience of such.

Here is a question for those who want the min wage raised (again).
What should happen to the salaries to those who work more than min. wage when the min wage goes up?

example
employee A makes min wage. and just started working in the field with no prior work experience.
employee B makes $1.00 per hour more than employee A. and has 3 years work experience .

by raising employee A wage without raising employee B, are you not discounting employee B worth?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Is she unclear on the whole concept of "minimum wage"? It's a starting wage, a training wage. Jobs that have the minimum wage as the final wage are what they call disposable jobs, you gain work experience and move on. If you choose to stay as you are and make minimum wage, that's on you.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

LiberalAvenger said:

Lets examine the other side of te coin.

You call a plumbing company.

They send a licensed plumber to your house with an apprentice who is paid minimum wage.

The plumber tells the ojt apprentice what to do and then leaves until he is finished.

The plumbing company charges you full scale plumbing wages for work that was done by the minimum wage helper.

Same goes for lawyers who charge 400 dollars perhour for work done by minimum wage secretaries.

This I have observed from personal experience.

Not all minimum wage woekers work in the fast food industry.A lot of them perform highly skilled work and are exploited.

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What plumbing company sends two people out for a one person job and only charges for one person?

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

Goshin said:

If minimum wage were $22/hr, a head of lettuce would cost $10. The cost of almost everything would go up. In the end, $22 wouldn't buy any more than $7 does today.

Unless you want to institute price controls as well, which historically never worked out so much...

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Its ALWAYS those that have never run businesses that advocate for higher wages. First casualty of a major increase in minimum wage is employment.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

TheDemSocialist said:

I agree that $22/hr is "insane" but i disagree with that you think minimum wage is fine where its at. We were always told the harder you work the more money you will get. Workers productivity is up people are working harder and longer, but we are not getting the benefits of our labor instead its not the people who are working harder wages growing, its someone elses..

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This observation is missing an important point. It doesn't address WHY productivity is up.

If, 30 years ago, it took two welders on each car chassis to attach various parts and now that job is done by a machine that requires 2 operators for every 50 chassis that cross the line then productivity for those employees has increased 50 fold but does that really mean that those two employees are worth 50x their previous rate of pay?

Heck no!

The cost of labor isn't based directly on productivity. It's primarily based on replacement value. If you are working a job that requires a relatively low level of skill and knowledge it will NEVER be worth more than a pittance because if you decide that the pay isn't enough then I can easily find someone who will do the same job for less.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

I think there is quite a bit of Senator Warren point that was lost here. I don't think she meant at all that the minimum wage should be $22/hr. Her point was that there is a disconnect between increased profit due to increased productivity, and average wages of the labor force. Regardless of philosophy, we have seen productivity and profit rise at a much higher rate then average wages. Whether that is a problem that ought to be addressed, is definitely a debatable argument.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

I think there is quite a bit of Senator Warren point that was lost here. I don't think she meant at all that the minimum wage should be $22/hr. Her point was that there is a disconnect between increased profit due to increased productivity, and average wages of the labor force. Regardless of philosophy, we have seen productivity and profit rise at a much higher rate then average wages. Whether that is a problem that ought to be addressed, is definitely a debatable argument.

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I don't necessarily see any connect between increased profit, increased productivity and labor costs or wages unless the workers are producing the increases. That is not generally the case.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

WWGWD said:

I think there is quite a bit of Senator Warren point that was lost here. I don't think she meant at all that the minimum wage should be $22/hr. Her point was that there is a disconnect between increased profit due to increased productivity, and average wages of the labor force. Regardless of philosophy, we have seen productivity and profit rise at a much higher rate then average wages. Whether that is a problem that ought to be addressed, is definitely a debatable argument.

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We have seen productivity rise because of technology but that DOES NOT mean that labor is now worth more. What has happened is that the job market for unskilled labor has retracted in manufacturing and increased in service industries. Skilled labor is still in high demand but that is generally not effected by minimum wage.

Re: Elizabeth Warren: Why Isn’t Min Wage Keeping Up With Productivity? Should Be $22

jimbo said:

I don't necessarily see any connect between increased profit, increased productivity and labor costs or wages unless the workers are producing the increases. That is not generally the case.

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So you believe that the rise of profit and productivity has been congruent with the rise of labor cost?