• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Political Opinion television shows are the problem. One example I saw today.

PleasantValley

PleasantValley

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
4,098
Reaction score
1,991
Location
Henderson, TX
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
I was running the local Republican Headquarters today and things were fairly normal until about closing time.

Then this older gentleman came in with his wife and both of them were very angry.
It seems he went to vote and at the polling place someone had put a whole bunch of BETO signs all over the place there.
I saw them later and they were within the legal limits, but what got this man and his wife so upset is how many there were.

He asked for several CRUZ signs of which I gave him, and then he held them and started telling me about BETO, illegals, Democrats, patriotism, ect, but what i was noticing his anger and I am sure his blood pressure too were rising to unsafe levels. He admitted he was a regular watcher of FOX.

I told him to ensure he was within the legal limit when he put the signs up, but to also NOT take any of the BETO signs down.

I then told him it MIGHT BE BEST for him to avoid watching politics on TV for a bit and to instead go fishing, read a book, or listen to music. Anything else that would help him calm down and not get so riled up. No one wins if he drops dead.

After he left and as i locked up I came to the conclusion it is the TV opinion shows that are driving all of this hate.

Yes, in his case it was FOX, but you know full well MSNBC and CNN and others are doing their share to gin up the hate for the right with their rhetoric and slanted stories.

If there is blood and bodies on the streets in the future I blame it on these political opinion shows and their quest for ratings to get their side built up into a feeding frenzy.

Those of you who cuss FOX are justified.
But you also are just as much a puppet of your own opinion shows that YOU watch if your heart is full of hate because of politics.

Have we now become a society of mindless drones who only think the way MSNBC, CNN, FOX, THE VIEW, and all the others want us to?

This very real fact became crystal clear today in the silence of the building as i was locking up.

THREAD PREDICTION:
There will be many who will say FOX...AND ONLY FOX...is the problem.
There will be others that say...what about (fill in the blank)
There will be the usual trolls.

...and then I hope there will be a few who will come to realize the hate is being driven by these TV shows for ratings of their base and that is all they care about.
It is my hope if a few people can see this, maybe we can put a stop to it as individuals by not watching them any more and turn to more moderate and balanced news.
Yes, they are opinion shows, but they mascarade as news shows.
 
Last edited:
Is it too late for us?

Have these TV opinion shows gotten us so brainwashed the only way to stop it is to kill each other?

They have created about the longest slippery slope I have ever seen.
It snuck right up on us until we have what we have now.

OK, fellow frogs in the boiling pot. What do we do now?
 
PleasantValley said:
Is it too late for us?

Have these TV opinion shows gotten us so brainwashed the only way to stop it is to kill each other?

They have created about the longest slippery slope I have ever seen.
It snuck right up on us until we have what we have now.

OK, fellow frogs in the boiling pot. What do we do now?
Click to expand...

Stop watching, that's the best I can offer. I take the whole weekend off from the net in most cases, aside from my work, being on call for a new patient, or the such. I don't pay much attention to political opinion pieces and in most cases I don't even watch the whole program for these programs mentioned.

I only watch a few of the casters on FOX, CNN, or MSNBC. The only one that I would truly write off is Don Lemon, as he has been far more willing to stoke hate and promote more than the usual amount of partisan lies. Water's World at has it's own discussion panel and FOX does have it's own democrat members.

Maybe just getting the news itself and not having the all the jaw wagging in the mix?
I find that the less the commentators talk amongst themselves, the less bothered I get by the program.
 
PleasantValley said:
Is it too late for us?

Have these TV opinion shows gotten us so brainwashed the only way to stop it is to kill each other?

They have created about the longest slippery slope I have ever seen.
It snuck right up on us until we have what we have now.

OK, fellow frogs in the boiling pot. What do we do now?
Click to expand...

It is not just that journalism has failed basic education and the University have failed as well so not only are people ignorant but they dont know that they are ignorant and they dont know how to be not ignorant.

That is a rather significant problem.
 
Oborosen said:
Stop watching, that's the best I can offer. I take the whole weekend off from the net in most cases, aside from my work, being on call for a new patient, or the such. I don't pay much attention to political opinion pieces and in most cases I don't even watch the whole program for these programs mentioned.

I only watch a few of the casters on FOX, CNN, or MSNBC. The only one that I would truly write off is Don Lemon, as he has been far more willing to stoke hate and promote more than the usual amount of partisan lies. Water's World at has it's own discussion panel and FOX does have it's own democrat members.

Maybe just getting the news itself and not having the all the jaw wagging in the mix?
I find that the less the commentators talk amongst themselves, the less bothered I get by the program.
Click to expand...

I found at 1400 on weekdays on HLN there is one lady Michaela, a full figured Hispanic lady that does just that.
She reads the news...PERIOD.
No discussion panel from the usual talking heads that only get 15 seconds.

She just reads the news.
I find i also actually get more news from her than any where else because of it.

While i still enjoy seeing the " news babes " with their short hemlines, I am finding they are all starting to look exactly alike and sound exactly alike and saying the same thing.

Gimme Michaela any day over them for good informative news i don't see anywhere else.

( but what sailor doesn't like to see a nice pair of legs on occasion )
 
Hawkeye10 said:
It is not just that journalism has failed basic education and the University have failed as well so not only are people ignorant but they dont know that they are ignorant and they dont know how to be not ignorant.

That is a rather significant problem.
Click to expand...

You make a good point.

Though there are quite a number who are not ignorant, but have gotten suckered in to seeing only one side of the news.
They are fresh meat for these opinion shows who constantly reinforce previous notions.

That is why you will see, otherwise intelligent people saying the dumbest things.

(holding my hand up)

I even once repeated a mantra I heard when i said electing Obama was the single most racist act our country has ever done.
Talk about a "head up the ass" moment.
...but at least I am man enough to admit it and posted a retraction after a couple posters politely pointed it out.

My wife's liberal sister told me on a visit..." Sometimes don't you just hate white people"?
Then she later said, " Why don't you just use a mortar to defend your home with if you like assault weapons so much"?
Even later she told me there were OPIATES in the kratom I take for my constant pain. Never mind I can legally order ten bottles and have them delivered to my front door.

This is what i mean by normally smart people making some of the most dumbassed statements due to these opinion TV shows.
She is a rabid watcher and supporter of Rachael Maddow and Morning Joe.
 
Last edited:
They are definitely part of the problem.
 
PleasantValley said:
You make a good point.

Though there are quite a number who are not ignorant, but have gotten suckered in to seeing only one side of the news.
They are fresh meat for these opinion shows who constantly reinforce previous notions.

That is why you will see, otherwise intelligent people saying the dumbest things.

(holding my hand up)

I even once repeated a mantra I heard when i said electing Obama was the single most racist act our country has ever done.
Talk about a "head up the ass" moment.
...but at least I am man enough to admit it and posted a retraction after a couple posters politely pointed it out.

My wife's liberal sister told me on a visit..." Sometimes don't you just hate white people"?
Then she later said, " Why don't you just use a mortar to defend your home with if you like assault weapons so much"?
Even later she told me there were OPIATES in the kratom I take for my constant pain. Never mind I can legally order ten bottles and have them delivered to my front door.

This is what i mean by normally smart people making some of the most dumbassed statements due to these opinion TV shows.
She is a rabid watcher and supporter of Rachael Maddow and Morning Joe.
Click to expand...

The seeming return of the public intellectual like we see with Peterson, with so much of his work free on YouTube, is amazing.

Things are percolating.
.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The seeming return of the public intellectual like we see with Peterson, with so much of his work free on YouTube, is amazing.

Things are percolating.
.
Click to expand...

I am not familiar with him.
Help me to "percolate".
 
PleasantValley said:
I was running the local Republican Headquarters today and things were fairly normal until about closing time.

Then this older gentleman came in with his wife and both of them were very angry.
It seems he went to vote and at the polling place someone had put a whole bunch of BETO signs all over the place there.
I saw them later and they were within the legal limits, but what got this man and his wife so upset is how many there were.

He asked for several CRUZ signs of which I gave him, and then he held them and started telling me about BETO, illegals, Democrats, patriotism, ect, but what i was noticing his anger and I am sure his blood pressure too were rising to unsafe levels. He admitted he was a regular watcher of FOX.

I told him to ensure he was within the legal limit when he put the signs up, but to also NOT take any of the BETO signs down.

I then told him it MIGHT BE BEST for him to avoid watching politics on TV for a bit and to instead go fishing, read a book, or listen to music. Anything else that would help him calm down and not get so riled up. No one wins if he drops dead.

After he left and as i locked up I came to the conclusion it is the TV opinion shows that are driving all of this hate.

Yes, in his case it was FOX, but you know full well MSNBC and CNN and others are doing their share to gin up the hate for the right with their rhetoric and slanted stories.

If there is blood and bodies on the streets in the future I blame it on these political opinion shows and their quest for ratings to get their side built up into a feeding frenzy.

Those of you who cuss FOX are justified.
But you also are just as much a puppet of your own opinion shows that YOU watch if your heart is full of hate because of politics.

Have we now become a society of mindless drones who only think the way MSNBC, CNN, FOX, THE VIEW, and all the others want us to?

This very real fact became crystal clear today in the silence of the building as i was locking up.

THREAD PREDICTION:
There will be many who will say FOX...AND ONLY FOX...is the problem.
There will be others that say...what about (fill in the blank)
There will be the usual trolls.

...and then I hope there will be a few who will come to realize the hate is being driven by these TV shows for ratings of their base and that is all they care about.
It is my hope if a few people can see this, maybe we can put a stop to it as individuals by not watching them any more and turn to more moderate and balanced news.
Yes, they are opinion shows, but they mascarade as news shows.
Click to expand...

You don't hold people responsible for their own actions? You'd blame an inanimate object? A TV show?
 
Anarchon said:
You don't hold people responsible for their own actions? You'd blame an inanimate object? A TV show?
Click to expand...

NO. I hold each and every person responsible for what they do.

I am saying these shows are trying to get them to act irresponsibly by constantly filling their head with GOOD / BAD rhetoric.

That older guy and his wife should have been walking down by the local lake or going to a theater in their golden years rather than having their heads filled with nasty comments about "the other guy" and raising their blood pressure over a bunch of stupid BETO signs.

I made a POLL about the hate displayed and sadly 30% of the membership said they would work to keep it going, as it is "the other guy's " fault they are acting mean.
This is how they justify their own bad behavior.

You can backtrack and see the POLL, but the results are in my signature line.
 
Anarchon said:
You don't hold people responsible for their own actions? You'd blame an inanimate object? A TV show?
Click to expand...

My big concern is this country becoming a REAL powder keg like back in 1860.

Most people thought a bloody four year long war was an impossibility and they tried to crucify Gen. Sherman for speaking the truth.
One member of the Senate said he could wipe up all the blood spilled with his handkerchief.

Contents under pressure do not take much to make them burst apart.

We are not there yet, but if we can see SOME of the causes, as Skeptic Bob pointed out, and i am with this thread, maybe we can be smart enough to avert another disaster like 1861 - 1865....and ten years afterward.

If we ARE NOT smart enough to see its cause and stop it, then we deserve to have the other 30% tear us apart.
 
PleasantValley said:
NO. I hold each and every person responsible for what they do.

I am saying these shows are trying to get them to act irresponsibly by constantly filling their head with GOOD / BAD rhetoric.

That older guy and his wife should have been walking down by the local lake or going to a theater in their golden years rather than having their heads filled with nasty comments about "the other guy" and raising their blood pressure over a bunch of stupid BETO signs.

I made a POLL about the hate displayed and sadly 30% of the membership said they would work to keep it going, as it is "the other guy's " fault they are acting mean.
This is how they justify their own bad behavior.

You can backtrack and see the POLL, but the results are in my signature line.
Click to expand...

So, do you have a solution? Censor these TV shows that you think are using bad rhetoric? Or, just bitch and whine about it? Neither sounds great. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume an outline of your more brilliant plan is forthcoming.
 
PleasantValley said:
Is it too late for us?

Have these TV opinion shows gotten us so brainwashed the only way to stop it is to kill each other?

They have created about the longest slippery slope I have ever seen.
It snuck right up on us until we have what we have now.

OK, fellow frogs in the boiling pot. What do we do now?
Click to expand...

The Brainwashing of my Dad

Look, I've watched Bret Baier and Shep Smith at least six times in the last couple of months, and I've watched a couple of other Fox shows. Seems the ratings for them are nowhere near what they get for the Five, Fox and Friends and Hannity, and Bill-O back in his day.

People CRAVE their confirmation bias.
Yeah sure, we have our slanted talking heads on the other side.

And I've watched those channels about as much as I watched Fox, which boils down to:
"I don't watch very much of that stuff at all".

Here is what I notice: Every time I see a trope repeated more than three or four times, like on DP for instance, I start doing a search and sure enough, I always manage to find the source, and it always seems to be these same shows.

Since I am a liberal, I am usually searching for the source of a well worn trope from the Right.
What a worthless existence, busily copying and pasting nonsense from tee vee talking heads and pretending one is making salient debate threads on the internet.

For me, the folks who do it stick out like a sore thumb.
It is clouding up the board to the point where it's damn near impossible to just talk about something.
Impossible because "sixty-two people" already have their preconceived notions of who I am, and what my values are.
 
PleasantValley said:
My big concern is this country becoming a REAL powder keg like back in 1860.
Click to expand...

The Right is attempting to set the stage for replacing democratic institutions with authoritarian rule. Provoking street violence and blaming it on their opponents is exactly how totalitarian regimes have gained power in the past.
These narratives about aggressive left-wing violence aren’t just distorted. They are dangerous.
 
PleasantValley said:
I made a POLL about the hate displayed and sadly 30% of the membership said they would work to keep it going, as it is "the other guy's " fault they are acting mean.
This is how they justify their own bad behavior.

You can backtrack and see the POLL, but the results are in my signature line.
Click to expand...

I am truly sorry but Trump's HARD CORE is about 30% and always has been.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
The Brainwashing of my Dad

Look, I've watched Bret Baier and Shep Smith at least six times in the last couple of months, and I've watched a couple of other Fox shows. Seems the ratings for them are nowhere near what they get for the Five, Fox and Friends and Hannity, and Bill-O back in his day.

People CRAVE their confirmation bias.
Yeah sure, we have our slanted talking heads on the other side.

And I've watched those channels about as much as I watched Fox, which boils down to:
"I don't watch very much of that stuff at all".

Here is what I notice: Every time I see a trope repeated more than three or four times, like on DP for instance, I start doing a search and sure enough, I always manage to find the source, and it always seems to be these same shows.

Since I am a liberal, I am usually searching for the source of a well worn trope from the Right.
What a worthless existence, busily copying and pasting nonsense from tee vee talking heads and pretending one is making salient debate threads on the internet.

For me, the folks who do it stick out like a sore thumb.
It is clouding up the board to the point where it's damn near impossible to just talk about something.
Impossible because "sixty-two people" already have their preconceived notions of who I am, and what my values are.
Click to expand...

You know, when I first met you, I could talk reasonably with you about lots of subjects.
Now you are so far left I have to use a megaphone, and you only want to talk about how evil Trump supporters and Trump.

I think in these last few months you probably underwent some of that brainwashing yourself.

You honestly can't see how radical and one-sided you have become?

I joined so i could speak with and enjoy dialog with those who think differently than me, but there is no way I can have a conversation with all the shrill extremism you have been posting.

Or in the language of a fellow "analog dinosaur"......clean up that scratchy dirty pot and then turn it down about 30%.
I will even supply the contact cleaner.
Right now your output is so loud and extreme, I have to turn my head and plug my ears.
 
Last edited:
PleasantValley said:
You know, when I first met you, I could talk reasonably with you about lots of subjects.
Now you are so far left I have to use a megaphone, and you only want to talk about how evil Trump supporters and Trump.

I think in these last few months you probably underwent some of that brainwashing yourself.

You honestly can't see how radical and one-sided you have become?
Click to expand...

---I can see how tense and stressed I've become. You and I have not had much of a conversation of any great length in months that I can recall.

WRT what I wrote above, do you not notice the echo chamber effect at all?
Sorry, but I do.
The signal to noise ratio in here is so far off the scale it would be funny, under any other circumstances.

Give me some examples of me being "far Left" aside from having to react to far Right.
Use examples of my own personal values, for instance.

Guns, health care, women's rights, immigration, economics, social, environment, foreign policy and foreign relations, you name it and if I've moved farther to the Left I don't mind admitting it and I'll state why to the best of my ability.

But if you're just talking about my demeanor, sorry to say I am only human and I react to my environment like most people do.
That's not a right or left issue, it's just human nature and/or my own human failings, which I am sure are plenty.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
---I can see how tense and stressed I've become. You and I have not had much of a conversation of any great length in months that I can recall.

WRT what I wrote above, do you not notice the echo chamber effect at all?
Sorry, but I do.
The signal to noise ratio in here is so far off the scale it would be funny, under any other circumstances.

Give me some examples of me being "far Left" aside from having to react to far Right.
Use examples of my own personal values, for instance.

Guns, health care, women's rights, immigration, economics, social, environment, foreign policy and foreign relations, you name it and if I've moved farther to the Left I don't mind admitting it and I'll state why to the best of my ability.

But if you're just talking about my demeanor, sorry to say I am only human and I react to my environment like most people do.
That's not a right or left issue, it's just human nature and/or my own human failings, which I am sure are plenty.
Click to expand...

OK, my friend...(will you still allow me to call you that?)
How about I simply summarize by saying, "don't let them get your goat and take you there".
In every military aircraft i have worked on there is a red cover sheerwired down that is used to arm weapons.

Maybe for your own blood pressure it might be good to have your TRIGGER covered and sheerwired down.

When those bastids trigger you and make you REact, they win.

Miamoto Musashi would always do things to trigger and anger his opponent and beat them every time.
He was also undefeated. With only one draw from a calm cool dude with a short, thin stick.

Be the calm cool dude with just a short, thin stick and whoop some ass.

Let them drive you angry distraction and you will come off looking not so good.

We have enough of them here already.

Us ancient analog dinosaurs have to stick together.

I hope you take this with the love it was sent.
 
PleasantValley said:
OK, my friend...(will you still allow me to call you that?)
How about I simply summarize by saying, "don't let them get your goat and take you there".
In every military aircraft i have worked on there is a red cover sheerwired down that is used to arm weapons.

Maybe for your own blood pressure it might be good to have your TRIGGER covered and sheerwired down.

When those bastids trigger you and make you REact, they win.

Miamoto Musashi would always do things to trigger and anger his opponent and beat them every time.
He was also undefeated. With only one draw from a calm cool dude with a short, thin stick.

Be the calm cool dude with just a short, thin stick and whoop some ass.

Let them drive you angry distraction and you will come off looking not so good.

We have enough of them here already.

Us ancient analog dinosaurs have to stick together.

I hope you take this with the love it was sent.
Click to expand...

Some days I'm the bug, some days I'm the windshield.
But now you have piqued my curiosity because I'm trying to take personal inventory to see if I've drifted either left or right on anything. Maybe a wee bit left on one single aspect of immigration policy while simultaneously farther right on another couple of immigration issues, and maybe a wee bit further right on both a foreign policy point and on guns.

Details if asked for, that's my take on it.
Specifically what did I move radically to the left on?
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
Some days I'm the bug, some days I'm the windshield.
But now you have piqued my curiosity because I'm trying to take personal inventory to see if I've drifted either left or right on anything. Maybe a wee bit left on one single aspect of immigration policy while simultaneously farther right on another couple of immigration issues, and maybe a wee bit further right on both a foreign policy point and on guns.

Details if asked for, that's my take on it.
Specifically what did I move radically to the left on?
Click to expand...

Thank you for asking.
It was not this thread but another where your post was a pic of an orange monster head.
That is how it started off.
I tried to find it but i could not in this short of a time.

I believe it was written yesterday or today.
It was pretty intense and way in-your-face and I am not even your enemy, but I was treated like i just insulted your mother.

This was when i started getting concerned.
 
PleasantValley said:
Thank you for asking.
It was not this thread but another where your post was a pic of an orange monster head.
That is how it started off.
I tried to find it but i could not in this short of a time.

I believe it was written yesterday or today.
It was pretty intense and way in-your-face and I am not even your enemy, but I was treated like i just insulted your mother.

This was when i started getting concerned.
Click to expand...

This one:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...-dems-yawn-post1069195588.html#post1069195588

Snipped for brevity:

Checkerboard Strangler said:
View attachment 67242685

The thing about fearmongering is, you have to continually ratchet it up higher and higher.
The danger is, you can easily cross into full blown bat**** crazy.

That's happened now.
Meanwhile, rational independents and Democrats have long memories of what threats of violence really look like.

View attachment 67242686
Click to expand...

Surely you must know that the hysteria is being ratcheted up to record levels right now.
That face was a depiction of how I see all of that nonsense.
I read posts about how we are "under seige" or how "people in California are RIOTING" and that face comes to mind...IN my mind. It's sarcasm.

On the other hand, seeing some fat pig with a Molon Labe hat on with a shirt that suggests it's okay to vote from the rooftops
(kill your opponents) if the election doesn't go your way, that puts me on edge.

Unite the Right was about Jews, surely every rational person understands that.

The world has gone that direction. In fact, it's going in that direction in several place on the globe right now.
The fearmongering and hysteria is disturbing and obscene.
There is nothing "Left" about an observation like that.
 
Checkerboard Strangler said:
This one:

https://www.debatepolitics.com/gene...-dems-yawn-post1069195588.html#post1069195588

Snipped for brevity:



Surely you must know that the hysteria is being ratcheted up to record levels right now.
That face was a depiction of how I see all of that nonsense.
I read posts about how we are "under seige" or how "people in California are RIOTING" and that face comes to mind...IN my mind. It's sarcasm.

On the other hand, seeing some fat pig with a Molon Labe hat on with a shirt that suggests it's okay to vote from the rooftops
(kill your opponents) if the election doesn't go your way, that puts me on edge.

Unite the Right was about Jews, surely every rational person understands that.

The world has gone that direction. In fact, it's going in that direction in several place on the globe right now.
The fearmongering and hysteria is disturbing and obscene.
There is nothing "Left" about an observation like that.
Click to expand...

There is quite a lot of LEFT propaganda to be observed in all that.
You just don't see it.....yet (I hope).

I can see propaganda from the right and the left.
I had training to do so. It was rather eye opening.
Once you have trained yourself to detect it, watch some commercials. They are good practical experience in detecting propaganda.
Most of the time people do not see their emotions are being manipulated.

The images you see are sent by an editor in a control room and everything is carefully snipped and spliced to have the desired effect.

Once you can acknowledge the left does it too, your eyes will see 20/20.
Once you see 20/20, then you can see the whole picture.
You have two eyes. One for the left and one for the right.
Use them BOTH.

You have to be smarter than them and know the tricks they are using.

appeals to PURE EMOTION are the easiest to detect.

I got a flyer in the mail during the primaries of a baby crying and saying if you vote for _________ I will die because i will have zero health care.

Some even show fat pigs in Molon Labe hats. (set the hook when they bite)

BOTH play the same game. It is those that can see 20/20 that are the most informed and can not be EMOTIONALLY manipulated.
 
Last edited:
PleasantValley said:
There is quite a lot of LEFT propaganda to be observed in all that.
You just don't see it.....yet (I hope).

I can see propaganda from the right and the left.
I had training to do so. It was rather eye opening.
Once you have trained yourself to detect it, watch some commercials. They are good practical experience in detecting propaganda.
Most of the time people do not see their emotions are being manipulated.

The images you see are sent by an editor in a control room and everything is carefully snipped and spliced to have the desired effect.

Once you can acknowledge the left does it too, your eyes will see 20/20.
Once you see 20/20, then you can see the whole picture.

You have to be smarter than them and know the tricks they are using.

appeals to PURE EMOTION are the easiest to detect.

I got a flyer in the mail during the primaries of a baby crying and saying if you vote for _________ I will die because i will have zero health care.

Some even show fat pigs in Molon Labe hats. (set the hook when they bite)

BOTH play the same game. It is those that can see 20/20 that are the most informed and can not be EMOTIONALLY manipulated.
Click to expand...

Oh please, I produced, shot and edited political campaign commercials for Republicans in Texas for ten years.
What I'm getting at is the fact that when people expect that crap to be taken seriously it insults my intelligence.
Certainly I understand full well how it works. I did it for a living.

I expect MORE from the people on this forum, that's all.
That's what gets my goat, not the images themselves, watching OTHERS preach it as gospel...that right there.

Make sense now?

And again, that's not a right or left issue, it's just human nature and/or my own human failings, which I am sure are plenty.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom