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Thread: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    Agreed, but the Dem-party is simply the "other party" in a decrepit democracy. What can progressives do if the odds have been stacked against them as in the Electoral College (national) and with gerrymandering (state).

    We need to get rid of both, along with unlimited campaign funding that sells candidates like "soap-powder"in a uniquely two-party system*.

    They all wash whiter-than-white ...

    *Were Bernie to live as a politician in the UK, he'd have run on middle-road-but-slightly-left program on a Liberal Party label. Which is what he should do in the US. Make the electoral system three- and not two-dimensional - and that cannot happen until Americans smarten-up politically ...
    Bernie is and has always been for getting money out of politics as a priority; perhaps the single most important thing for getting the US away from being the plutocracy it's become.

    That said, if the Dem party is to win, it definitely needs to channel popular, progressive ideas rather than its present strategy of papering over its corporatism and devotion to the status quo with little more than platitudes and a social justice platform (a favourite of its donor beholden establishment because these cost them nothing while _implying_ leftism/progressivism).
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Sanders credited progressives with increasing public acceptance of proposals such as a $15 minimum wage, renegotiating trade policies and offering free college tuition. He got a standing ovation when he said the California Senate recently passed a single-payer health care plan.
    Makes it all the more puzzling that he never seems to reference the one state where single-payer is already law and could be implemented tomorrow if the political will could be found, given that he has some sway in said state.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    You know what is so sad is by the time America got to 2017 it is Crazy Bernie of all people who is found yelling "HEY MORONS; IN POLITICS THE ONLY WAY TO MATTER IS TO WIN!'.
    Idealism is good. It gives you something to strive for. But you can't get there without some practicality.
    Formerly BrewerBob

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    And you are certainly right that the inexperienced young and profiteers of the promised largesse that "progressves'" BS feeds them in populist storylines of the type you so love to tell.
    More blah, blah, blah.

    Moving right along ....
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    That aspect of it cannot be overstated enough; the Dem party needs to undergo some serious reinvention and introspection.
    I can agree with that, but I have doubts about the way Bernie wants to do it.

    The Dem party is not as "homogenous" as you might think, and if Bernie lost the primaries it shows that not all Dems want "real, substantial change". (Which, yes, I agree is fundamentally necessary to take the US out of the stone-age of democracy.)

    Progressives must have goals but understand that changing American mentalities is a long, hard slog.

    For America, it seems that "success" is reduced fundamentally to one parameter. Called "Wealth". How much ya got relative to everybody else. Which is the foundation of our presently stark Income Disparity in the nation.

    If you were to live in a truly Social Democracy, you'd understand that the calamity of concentration of Wealth, due to low upper-income taxation, is NOT THE PROBLEM. Yes, there are multimillionaires, but such an objective is not the mind-boggling pursuit of the entire nation.

    Those living below the Poverty Threshold in the US are 14% of the population. In Sweden they are 7% - half that amount.

    And a nation's goal should be 3/5%. Can we achieve that same reduced level?

    Of course we can.

    But not by voting Replicants in charge of Congress and the Presidency! And certainly not by voting Donald Dork as PotUS - a guy born with a 40Megabuck spoon in his mouth ...
    Last edited by Lafayette; 06-12-17 at 05:36 AM.
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    I can agree with that, but I have doubts about the way Bernie wants to do it.

    The Dem party is not as "homogenous" as you might think, and if Bernie lost the primaries it shows that not all Dems want "real, substantial change". (Which, yes, I agree is fundamentally necessary to take the US out of the stone-age of democracy.)

    Progressives must have goals but understand that changing American mentalities is a long, hard slog.

    For America, it seems that "success" is reduced fundamentally to one parameter. Called "Wealth". How much ya got relative to everybody else. Which is the foundation of our presently stark Income Disparity in the nation.

    If you were to live in a truly Social Democracy, you'd understand that the calamity of concentration of Wealth, due to low upper-income taxation, is NOT THE PROBLEM. Yes, there are multimillionaires, but such an objective is not the mind-boggling pursuit of the entire nation.

    Those living below the Poverty Threshold in the US are 14% of the population. In Sweden they are 7% - half that amount.

    And a nation's goal should be 3/5%. Can we achieve that same reduced level?

    Of course we can.

    But not by voting Replicants in charge of Congress and the Presidency! And certainly not by voting Donald Dork as PotUS - a guy born with a 40Megabuck spoon in his mouth ...
    I think you're seriously underestimating the thirst for real change.

    The vast majority of Americans want money out of politics.

    A majority of Americans actually support most of Bernie's substantive ideas on healthcare and education.

    Beyond that, he was far more popular among the general populace (and remains so, as the most popular politician in the States) than both Hillary and Trump; significantly more popular among them in fact, than he was among the Dems during the primary. Fast forward from then till now, and I can only imagine that his vision for the party is now at better than 50% support among the Democratic party. Though it's true establishment types and the donor/consultant class/third way Clintonites continue a desperate stranglehold on its senior leadership and fight tooth and nail against necessary and meaningful change, I've no doubt that there's been substantive change in both the composition and predilections of the Dem rank and file since 2016.

    Incrementalism isn't necessary to defeat the likes of Trump and the Republicans; in fact, it may well be actively toxic and counterproductive in this respect per Hillary's example and the historic recent electoral losses suffered by the Democratic party.
    "The amount of energy necessary to refute bull**** is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it." -Alberto Brandolini

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Mr. " I Could Never Hold A Job " .......................before finally getting a tax payer funded job and lecturing others about jobs and taxes.
    Its easier to run for office than to run the office.
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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Lafayette View Post
    I can agree with that, but I have doubts about the way Bernie wants to do it.

    The Dem party is not as "homogenous" as you might think, and if Bernie lost the primaries it shows that not all Dems want "real, substantial change". (Which, yes, I agree is fundamentally necessary to take the US out of the stone-age of democracy.)

    Progressives must have goals but understand that changing American mentalities is a long, hard slog.

    For America, it seems that "success" is reduced fundamentally to one parameter. Called "Wealth". How much ya got relative to everybody else. Which is the foundation of our presently stark Income Disparity in the nation.

    If you were to live in a truly Social Democracy, you'd understand that the calamity of concentration of Wealth, due to low upper-income taxation, is NOT THE PROBLEM. Yes, there are multimillionaires, but such an objective is not the mind-boggling pursuit of the entire nation.

    Those living below the Poverty Threshold in the US are 14% of the population. In Sweden they are 7% - half that amount.

    And a nation's goal should be 3/5%. Can we achieve that same reduced level?

    Of course we can.

    But not by voting Replicants in charge of Congress and the Presidency! And certainly not by voting Donald Dork as PotUS - a guy born with a 40Megabuck spoon in his mouth ...
    As you well know the "poverty level" is politically defined and is actually only sensibly used as a populist tool. You realise that the average income of the population of the Land Meckenburg-Vorpommern (german State) in Germany's social democracy is below the poverty level of a nearby Land of Hamburg or Southern German Bavaria? You also probably know, as I found, when I ran the numbers a few years ago that the buying power at the bottom of the income ladder in the German social democracy is about the same as that of the American poor after transfers and adjusted for temporal swings. The difference in average income of the others is thus made up by the rest having less.
    Were you to take the other countries, I suspect you would find similar hypocrisy hidden behind the pompous politicat tirades.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by RetiredUSN View Post
    Mr. " I Could Never Hold A Job " .......................before finally getting a tax payer funded job and lecturing others about jobs and taxes.
    People paid to laud the blessings of socialism led to the implosion of the Soviet system.

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    Re: Bernie Sanders urges progressives to seek more electoral wins

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    I think you're seriously underestimating the thirst for real change.

    The vast majority of Americans want money out of politics.

    A majority of Americans actually support most of Bernie's substantive ideas on healthcare and education.

    Beyond that, he was far more popular among the general populace (and remains so, as the most popular politician in the States) than both Hillary and Trump; significantly more popular among them in fact, than he was among the Dems during the primary. Fast forward from then till now, and I can only imagine that his vision for the party is now at better than 50% support among the Democratic party. Though it's true establishment types and the donor/consultant class/third way Clintonites continue a desperate stranglehold on its senior leadership and fight tooth and nail against necessary and meaningful change, I've no doubt that there's been substantive change in both the composition and predilections of the Dem rank and file since 2016.

    Incrementalism isn't necessary to defeat the likes of Trump and the Republicans; in fact, it may well be actively toxic and counterproductive in this respect per Hillary's example and the historic recent electoral losses suffered by the Democratic party.
    Yes, you may be right (though I think you are Left-of-center ;^)!

    But Hillary did win the nomination (and did win the popular vote). Bernie has put together a fine program of Social Improvements. But most Americans are afraid of the world "Socialist", which exists nowhere in the world today except North Korea. Since socialist theory advocated the national ownership of all production resources. (That just doesn't work in a market-economy based upon Demand - the originator of all Supply.)

    So, if Bernie has established a list of "Nice things to have in an American Social Democracy", getting there is still going to be the hard part.

    There are two fundamental attributes of most Social Democracies, which are:
    *National HealthCare Systems
    *Free Tertiary Education

    How many American support fundamentally*both ideas? (I can't find a poll that sought answers; but if I do, then I'll post it here.)

    *In Europe, both are non-negotiable attributes of their Social Democracies.
    Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them; then neither persons nor property will be safe. (Frederick Douglass)

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