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Thread: No More 2 Party System

  1. #31
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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Um, no. They said that RT (you know, RUSSIA) is pumping up our third parties in a way that advances the narrative of American democracy as a sham. Not that voting third party makes one a rogue agent.
    Um, no. They say that Russia is a hostile nation that is trying to undermine our democracy and one of the examples they gave was Russia giving a platform to 3rd party candidates and said the two party system didn't represent a large chunk of the population. If that's going to be used as an example then anyone else doing it should be considered a hostile actor as well.

    Oh...and that's not taking into account that there is nothing wrong with them getting 3rd party candidates time, and I applaud them for it, because our media is the one that undermines the democratic process by purposefully ignoring 3rd party candidates, or any anti-establishment types like Ron Paul, for example.



    As far as the second point of the two party system not representing a large portion of the population...well...no ****!?!? But even their report said it was 1/3 but almost half the population is independent, so if anything RT low-balled it.

    In other words, yes, they are characterizing non-establishment candidates as a hostile act.
    “There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies.” ― Glen Cook, Chronicles of the Black Company

  2. #32
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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    Quote Originally Posted by Helix View Post
    i definitely support making it easier for other parties to participate. of course, i also fantasize about banning political parties entirely. run on your ideas, not on your team / political tribe.
    That's my ideal end-state goal. No one running for, or holding office, can be a member of any political party. People would walk into the booth and just see names and they would have to know who they were and not just pull straight Rs or Ds.
    “There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies.” ― Glen Cook, Chronicles of the Black Company

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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    Um, no. They say that Russia is a hostile nation that is trying to undermine our democracy and one of the examples they gave was Russia giving a platform to 3rd party candidates and said the two party system didn't represent a large chunk of the population. If that's going to be used as an example then anyone else doing it should be considered a hostile actor as well.

    Oh...and that's not taking into account that there is nothing wrong with them getting 3rd party candidates time, and I applaud them for it, because our media is the one that undermines the democratic process by purposefully ignoring 3rd party candidates, or any anti-establishment types like Ron Paul, for example.



    As far as the second point of the two party system not representing a large portion of the population...well...no ****!?!? But even their report said it was 1/3 but almost half the population is independent, so if anything RT low-balled it.

    In other words, yes, they are characterizing non-establishment candidates as a hostile act.
    If you insist.

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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    If you insist.
    It's in their own words that factual information is bad and supplying a platform to fulfill an extremely important need are the actions of a hostile actor. It's literally in their report.

    So it's not so much as me insisting but that's is what it is.
    “There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies.” ― Glen Cook, Chronicles of the Black Company

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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    Quote Originally Posted by Fishking View Post
    It's in their own words that factual information is bad and supplying a platform to fulfill an extremely important need are the actions of a hostile actor. It's literally in their report.

    So it's not so much as me insisting but that's is what it is.
    Dude. The report is clearly stating that RT is giving the third parties more airtime (which they deserve, by the way) in an attempt to discredit American democracy. As in, creating a narrative. As in, RT is not doing this out of the goodness of their kind little Russian hearts, they're doing it as propaganda. So that means, by extension, that anyone who supports third party candidates is discrediting American democracy? No, that's ****ing retarded.

    I have no doubt that the current political parties enjoy their little duopoly; however, you're trying to make people who support third parties (which includes myself, mind you -- registered Green, here, mostly as protest but still) into some marginalized victims of an eebul gubmint.

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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Dude. The report is clearly stating that RT is giving the third parties more airtime (which they deserve, by the way) in an attempt to discredit American democracy. As in, creating a narrative. As in, RT is not doing this out of the goodness of their kind little Russian hearts, they're doing it as propaganda. So that means, by extension, that anyone who supports third party candidates is discrediting American democracy? No, that's ****ing retarded.
    The narrative is factual and it's not particularly damning in any way. Hell, during the campaign the British House of Commons held a debate on whether to ban Trump from their country. If you want to talk about a hostile act on our democratic process that beats this ticky-tacky whine by a mile. And, yes, I understand Russia isn't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts but it's a giant "so what" and looks super whiny.

    I have no doubt that the current political parties enjoy their little duopoly; however, you're trying to make people who support third parties (which includes myself, mind you -- registered Green, here, mostly as protest but still) into some marginalized victims of an eebul gubmint.
    Hey...I'm just using their own criteria. Was I doing it a little bit tongue-in-cheek? Sure, but all I did was apply their standard literally.
    “There are no self-proclaimed villains, only regiments of self-proclaimed saints. Victorious historians rule where good or evil lies.” ― Glen Cook, Chronicles of the Black Company

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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    Quote Originally Posted by EndtheDuopoly View Post
    Would you ever leave the 2 party system and vote for a 3rd party candidate?
    Voting 3rd party would only end up changing one of the players in the system. To achieve viability, a third party would have to adopt opposing principals to the primary party, and nothing would change.

    Actual change would require a change to the vote apportionment to give third parties a chance to share minority power.
    So follow me into the desert
    As desperate as you are
    Where the moon is glued to a picture of heaven
    And all the little pigs have God

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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    I don't know if I already stated this on this thread but the only way to eliminate the 2 party system is to eliminate the spoiler effect caused by first past the post (only vote once). Maine passed a ballot measure this election to introduce instant runoff voting (IRV). IRV is basically ranking the candidates from favorite to least favorite. After the votes are counted in IRV, the candidate with the least votes is eliminated and the second votes are redistributed; this continues until one candidate has 50% or more of the vote.

    This is better explained by CGP grey


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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    I am looking forward to what the new Federalist Party is going to able to do in the next bigger elections. The program and concept they have is very interesting. I think that many republicans could vote for them, because the GOP is not the same party as when Lincoln was president anymore.

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    Re: No More 2 Party System

    ENDING CORPORATIST DUOPOLY IN AMERICA THROUGH ELECTION REFORM
    Approximately 62 percent of Americans do not think the federal government has the consent of the governed, and 86 percent feel the political system is broken and does not serve the interests of the American people. 60% of Americans say they welcome additional or “third” political parties; as few as 26% are satisfied with what we have. Any alternative to the 162-year-old duopoly of Democrats and Republicans is blocked by the system the two parties have created.

    1. THE CURRENT SITUATION According to Thomas Baldwin of the Green Party, Obama’s election in 2008 was all a marketing phenomenon created by more than a billion dollars, much of it from large banks. Under Barack Obama, the “hope and change” he had promised never came. The policies of George Bush were worsened: civil liberties have been significantly reduced or eroded with increased frequency in the wrong doing of our surveillance state, indefinite detention, criminal prosecutions of whistle blowers, foreign invasions and assassinations violating the sovereignty of nations. On the domestic front, most employment gains have been from temporary, part time or low wage jobs; universal healthcare was a big lie. The ACA was a huge give away to the private insurance and big pharma. Millions remain without coverage. The big gains in the stock market are increasing the profitability of corporations and enriching the very wealthy.Americans are as pessimistic and have lost confidence in their government. Only the very wealthy or those with access to money can afford to run for office. Congress is dominated by one of the two political parties. Corporations control the media. The Citizen’s United decision made bribery legal resulting in total corruption of the U.S. government.

    2. ENDING DUOPOLY IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    Utilize Proportional Representation. The most obvious difference between electoral politics in the United States and Europe is our plurality, winner-take-all electoral system. Giving representation only to supporters of the candidate with the most votes by definition shuts the door on – disenfranchises - political minorities. For example, if in a congressional district 51% vote Democrat, the remaining 49 % get no representation at all. Nearly all European legislatures have forms of proportional representation where 51 percent of the vote wins a majority of seats, but not all seats.

    With proportional representation, winning 30% of the vote wins 30% of the seats. 10 percent of the vote wins 10 percent of seats, and in some nations, like Germany and Belgium, candidates and parties can win with far less support. This lowers the barrier to entry for third parties and provides representation for those who did not vote for the winning party. John Stuart Mill advocated for proportional representation in 1861 in his book “Representative Government." Most democracies formed since that time use some form of proportional representation.

    In the United States, this could be accomplished by defining larger districts with the number of representatives assigned based on total population in that district. For example, if the district required 10 representatives, each party provides a list of 10 candidates with assigned priority 1 through 10. If that party wins say 40% of the vote then the top 4 members on that list are elected on that district. I believe this would be consistent with the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution. See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJyzkPicCRo

    3. IMPROVING PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS

    Approval voting is a much simpler and more democratic than Instant Runoff Voting (IRV). Each party with a representative in congress selects their presidential candidate. A ballot with multiple candidates could now say "Vote for any and all candidates that you wish." You can vote for any and all candidates that you support. The candidate with the most approval votes wins. Once we are no longer forced to vote for only one candidate, the candidate with the broadest overall support will win.

    See: Approval Voting versus IRV | The Center for Election Science

    4. TO INCREASE PARTICIPATION IN ELECTIONS CONSIDER
    a. Public funding of elections b. Election day registration. Utilize statewide voter registration databases. c. Make election day a holiday. d. Consolidate election calendars. e. Tie FCC licensing to more public affairs programming to increase electoral awareness. f. Constitutional amendment enshrining the right to vote. Establish and maintain voting systems that ensure everyone who wants to vote will be able to vote.

    5. CONCLUSION
    I would like to see debate around these issues and to explore the merit of other suggestions. I believe election reform is essential if we are to restore democracy to the people. If the Democratic Party believes in democracy then their platform should include election reforms like these to end the corrupt corporatist duopoly and restore democracy in America.

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