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Trump is still undermining voter confidence in the democratic process

Tangmo said:
The post comes from rightwingnuttia to include having apples and oranges in it.

The first citation concerning the complaint about election fraud in Wisconsin, in which a red county reported more votes than there are voters, is a fraud complaint brought against the red county election commission that had entered the same one-sided vote for Trump more than once into its computer for calculation. The result was an 1100-something bonus vote for Trump, all of which were more votes than were actually cast in person or by absentee voting.

This is Election Fraud. Fraud is the basis of the Complaint filed with the Wisconsin Elections Commission against the red county elections commission. Election Fraud is virtually the sole and exclusive domain of the Republican Party.

Further, Republicans dominated by the extreme right have been hollering and jumping up and down flapping their arms about voter fraud which numerous research projects over a couple of decades show to be virtually non-existent. Yet Trump and the extreme right continue to carry on in their fact free world that they will impose on the country across the board over the next four years.

That mass of red on the Electoral College map we see all the time contains a thousand red controlled elections commissions. Voters in the mass of red can be trusted to vote properly, same as Democratic Party voters in Blue states can be trusted. It are instead the red elections commissions at the county and in many instances the state level that need to clean their hands.

Red on the map = Election Fraud.
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I love how you acknowledge that I include the possibility of voter fraud that may have favored Trump and then try to make the case that I am only concerned about democratic fraud. Then you go on to make the statement that only fraud could get a republican elected. Not only are you all over the place, but you have no links or studies to back up your claims that are clearly wishful thinking on your part. You can't conceive that enough people disagree with you for your ideals to lose so you assume that fraud is the only possibility. Come back when you have some reasonable arguments.


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ksu_aviator said:
Really? You didn't even look? Maybe that's why you think that voter fraud isn't an issue. Do you really think that of the 300 million citizens and millions of illegal aliens that no one is voting twice or more?


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The real investigations into voter fraud show something like 30 instances in a billion votes cast. It's pretty rare.

That said, requiring voter ID could help to restore some of the confidence that Trump and his minions are eroding. It would have to be real, though, and not simply an attempt to limit minority voting.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
probably not.
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but we can't be sure, because...

ReverendHellh0und said:
I don't have evidence either way personally.

but while the left up until the other day declared voting fraud a myth, there have been numerous stories of it over the years.

for example.

Colorado voter fraud revealed: Slew of ballots cast by the dead spark investigation - Washington Times
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The "left" has investigated voter fraud. It's pretty rare. Meanwhile, the "right" likes to use voter ID, which would be a good idea overall, to limit the number of minority voters.

and to have a president elect claiming that "millions" of illegal votes were cast, sans any evidence, is simply undermining confidence in the electoral process.
 
Dittohead not! said:
but we can't be sure, because...



The "left" has investigated voter fraud. It's pretty rare. Meanwhile, the "right" likes to use voter ID, which would be a good idea overall, to limit the number of minority voters.

and to have a president elect claiming that "millions" of illegal votes were cast, sans any evidence, is simply undermining confidence in the electoral process.
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I think it's racist to believe black people can't figure out how to get ID like white people can....
 
Dittohead not! said:
Trump issues stunning, baseless claim that ‘millions’ voted illegally




Why would he do this? Had he lost, then it would be expected that he would claim fraud, but he won. Maybe those non existent millions voted for him, how do we know?
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President Obama commented that "there's no evidence of voter fraud".

No "evidence".

Yes, that's true. There is no "evidence", "evidence" as in "admissible in a court of law".

Of course, that's because there are limitations allowed on the method of gathering such evidence. Thus he stands on a technically accurate calibration .. to base his obviously erroneously conclusion.

But indeed .. was OJ innocent .. .. or did he just have a slick lawyer and a dumb jury?

No, there's no way to know for evidentiary certainty "if" or "how many" non-citizens voted. There isn't a box you check on your ballot testifying that you're a non-citizen (and thus you voted illegally) .. like many voting non-citizens would check that box. :roll:

But previous "inadmissable" "conversation" occurred and was documented .. and it was intelligently analyzed .. and accurate mathematics was applied: http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/271355-approx-3-09-million-non-citizens-registered-vote-many-voted.html.

So, we know, yes, we know. We know that criminal voting acts did most certainly occur.

And, we can estimate to a probable high degree of accuracy to what quantifiable extent the criminal acts occurred.

Yet, "there is no evidence'' of voter fraud, to quote our ostrich-like head-in-the-sand President.

But, he knows, yes, he knows. It's his job to know. And it's his political ideology's job to look the other way when it works against his party's candidate, even if, in so doing, he harms the nation as a whole.

And, it's the job of emotionally hurting Hillary supporters to look the other way too, to ignore the obvious and to instead say "what a beautiful robe the emperor is wearing" or "I just love Ms. Godiva's new dress". :roll:

We also know why they're hurting, too: http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/271243-identity-politics-harms-us-all-want-stop.html. Self-deception is a form of dissociation, a protective cover for a bruised and delicate ego that just can't handle the truth. :(

Perhaps, one day, the truth will be more important than political ideology that holds people emotionally and informationally hostage.

But, as so many sour grapes self-dumbing-down post-election commentaries by those who supported the identity-politics-pandering Hillary attest ..

.. It's "evident" today is not that day.
 
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Trump really ought to be more precise with his tweets (in fact I think he should retire his tweeter). But one can work backwards into a conclusion that a substantial amount of illegal aliens voted. There is absolutely no way to prove "millions." But if his point was to state that Hillary Clinton's vote totals would have been lower if not for illegal immigrant voters, I think a case can be made that this is absolutely accurate. The following is an abstract of a study from 2008 and 2012 elections. From these results, I think it is reasonable to extrapolate that there are a lot of illegal immigrants that vote.

Do non-citizens vote in U.S. elections?
 
Dittohead not! said:
The real investigations into voter fraud show something like 30 instances in a billion votes cast. It's pretty rare.

That said, requiring voter ID could help to restore some of the confidence that Trump and his minions are eroding. It would have to be real, though, and not simply an attempt to limit minority voting.
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No. That isn't what it said. It said 30 convictions. Convictions are hard to get when people use false aliases to vote and don't have to prove their identity.

If you want to defend the 30/billion then you need to tell me how we could possibly prove fraud under our current system. The 30 or so caught used their own names to vote via absentee and in person. That is identifiable. But finding the person that votes as John, Jason, Jose and Jesse is impossible.


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Ontologuy said:
President Obama commented that "there's no evidence of voter fraud".

No "evidence".

Yes, that's true. There is no "evidence", "evidence" as in "admissible in a court of law".

Of course, that's because there are limitations allowed on the method of gathering such evidence. Thus he stands on a technically accurate calibration .. to base his obviously erroneously conclusion.

But indeed .. was OJ innocent .. .. or did he just have a slick lawyer and a dumb jury?

No, there's no way to know for evidentiary certainty "if" or "how many" non-citizens voted. There isn't a box you check on your ballot testifying that you're a non-citizen (and thus you voted illegally) .. like many voting non-citizens would check that box. :roll:

But previous "inadmissable" "conversation" occurred and was documented .. and it was intelligently analyzed .. and accurate mathematics was applied: http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/271355-approx-3-09-million-non-citizens-registered-vote-many-voted.html.

So, we know, yes, we know. We know that criminal voting acts did most certainly occur.

And, we can estimate to a probable high degree of accuracy to what quantifiable extent the criminal acts occurred.

Yet, "there is no evidence'' of voter fraud, to quote our ostrich-like head-in-the-sand President.

But, he knows, yes, he knows. It's his job to know. And it's his political ideology's job to look the other way when it works against his party's candidate, even if, in so doing, he harms the nation as a whole.

And, it's the job of emotionally hurting Hillary supporters to look the other way too, to ignore the obvious and to instead say "what a beautiful robe the emperor is wearing" or "I just love Ms. Godiva's new dress". :roll:

We also know why they're hurting, too: http://www.debatepolitics.com/general-political-discussion/271243-identity-politics-harms-us-all-want-stop.html. Self-deception is a form of dissociation, a protective cover for a bruised and delicate ego that just can't handle the truth. :(

Perhaps, one day, the truth will be more important than political ideology that holds people emotionally and informationally hostage.

But, as so many sour grapes self-dumbing-down post-election commentaries by those who supported the identity-politics-pandering Hillary attest ..

.. It's "evident" today is not that day.
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No evidence of widespread voter fraud, none.
 
ksu_aviator said:
No. That isn't what it said. It said 30 convictions. Convictions are hard to get when people use false aliases to vote and don't have to prove their identity.

If you want to defend the 30/billion then you need to tell me how we could possibly prove fraud under our current system. The 30 or so caught used their own names to vote via absentee and in person. That is identifiable. But finding the person that votes as John, Jason, Jose and Jesse is impossible.


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There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud, period. Trump repeating the meme that the "election was rigged" simply undermines public confidence in one of our most cherished institutions, and he's doing it with no evidence, no facts. It's despicable.
 
Dittohead not! said:
No evidence of widespread voter fraud, none.
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Compelling argument .. I'm sold. :roll:

Why humans want to emulate ostriches is beyond me. :lol:

(Well, no it's not, but the idiom struck me so I just went with it.)
 
Dittohead not! said:
There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud, period. Trump repeating the meme that the "election was rigged" simply undermines public confidence in one of our most cherished institutions, and he's doing it with no evidence, no facts. It's despicable.
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Your argument from ignorance fallacy isn't flying. In a system that prevents evidence from being gathered, we can't assume the system is pure as the wind driven snow. Given the nature of humanity, we have to assume that some (not all) will abuse the system. Some that abuse the system will do so as individuals. Some will be organized. But we can't assume that everyone will use the system in good faith.

There is fraud going on. Who, how, when, where and why isn't known, but it is going on.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I think it's racist to believe black people can't figure out how to get ID like white people can....
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I think that's a pretty stupid argument when it's been explained to you more times than I can count how obtaining an acceptable ID can be a challenge for those without the means.
 
ksu_aviator said:
Your argument from ignorance fallacy isn't flying. In a system that prevents evidence from being gathered, we can't assume the system is pure as the wind driven snow. Given the nature of humanity, we have to assume that some (not all) will abuse the system. Some that abuse the system will do so as individuals. Some will be organized. But we can't assume that everyone will use the system in good faith.

There is fraud going on. Who, how, when, where and why isn't known, but it is going on.
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Are we to assume that millions of illegal votes are being cast because our new president elect says so?
 
ksu_aviator said:
I love how you acknowledge that I include the possibility of voter fraud that may have favored Trump and then try to make the case that I am only concerned about democratic fraud. Then you go on to make the statement that only fraud could get a republican elected. Not only are you all over the place, but you have no links or studies to back up your claims that are clearly wishful thinking on your part. You can't conceive that enough people disagree with you for your ideals to lose so you assume that fraud is the only possibility. Come back when you have some reasonable arguments.


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You're reading the Riot Act when there isn't any riot occurring.

Absent the needed riot, the reading is vacuous and meaningless and of no impact.

It only makes passersby wonder why you're carrying on with it. Makes 'em walk past a bit faster too, giving a wide berth doing it.
 
Dittohead not! said:
Are we to assume that millions of illegal votes are being cast because our new president elect says so?
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No. he isn't the reason people believe there is a problem. He is just restating the problem. There where approximately 126.4 million votes cast. If just 1% are fraudulent, then 1.26 million votes are invalid. We have no way to prove the votes invalid so there is no way to know what the real vote count is without a new system.


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Tangmo said:
You're reading the Riot Act when there isn't any riot occurring.

Absent the needed riot, the reading is vacuous and meaningless and of no impact.

It only makes passersby wonder why you're carrying on with it. Makes 'em walk past a bit faster too, giving a wide berth doing it.
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So your inability to make a proper argument is my fault?


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ksu_aviator said:
So your inability to make a proper argument is my fault?


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The Trumpist ignoring of my presentation of the argument, and the Trumpeteer denial it exists, is made in order to try to create your own false narrative that the argument does not exist. That in fact no argument or proposition was presented or exists.

Deny deny deny; attack attack attack.

Accusing and attacking the other side as not having made an argument avoids having to deal with the thesis that has been presented, the proposition, the substantive matter itself. It cheats by not having to make a rebuttal.

You don't argue, you attack that this side didn't make the argument. It's called denial and circumvention.

It is also called The Trump Rinse and Repeat....
 
Given the Right Sector has lost itself in its continuous rinse and repeat cycles, thread after thread, they might go back a page or two at this one to read the arguments.

Then again, they might not as rinse and repeat easily becomes a diversionary and fun fun fun political watersport.
 
Tangmo said:
The post comes from rightwingnuttia to include having apples and oranges in it.

The first citation concerning the complaint about election fraud in Wisconsin, in which a red county reported more votes than there are voters, is a fraud complaint brought against the red county election commission that had entered the same one-sided vote for Trump more than once into its computer for calculation. The result was an 1100-something bonus vote for Trump, all of which were more votes than were actually cast in person or by absentee voting.

This is Election Fraud. Fraud is the basis of the Complaint filed with the Wisconsin Elections Commission against the red county elections commission. Election Fraud is virtually the sole and exclusive domain of the Republican Party.

Further, Republicans dominated by the extreme right have been hollering and jumping up and down flapping their arms about voter fraud which numerous research projects over a couple of decades show to be virtually non-existent. Yet Trump and the extreme right continue to carry on in their fact free world that they will impose on the country across the board over the next four years.

That mass of red on the Electoral College map we see all the time contains a thousand red controlled elections commissions. Voters in the mass of red can be trusted to vote properly, same as Democratic Party voters in Blue states can be trusted. It are instead the red elections commissions at the county and in many instances the state level that need to clean their hands.

Red on the map = Election Fraud.
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Tangmo said:
You're reading the Riot Act when there isn't any riot occurring.

Absent the needed riot, the reading is vacuous and meaningless and of no impact.

It only makes passersby wonder why you're carrying on with it. Makes 'em walk past a bit faster too, giving a wide berth doing it.
Click to expand...

Tangmo said:
The Trumpist ignoring of my presentation of the argument, and the Trumpeteer denial it exists, is made in order to try to create your own false narrative that the argument does not exist. That in fact no argument or proposition was presented or exists.

Deny deny deny; attack attack attack.

Accusing and attacking the other side as not having made an argument avoids having to deal with the thesis that has been presented, the proposition, the substantive matter itself. It cheats by not having to make a rebuttal.

You don't argue, you attack that this side didn't make the argument. It's called denial and circumvention.

It is also called The Trump Rinse and Repeat....
Click to expand...

Where in these statements is the resemblance of an argument? Everything you've thrown out is smattering of regurgitated, thinly veiled personal attacks mixed with word of the day calendar vocabulary and a wondering thought process that brings to mind images of a blind mouse navigating a maze.

If you don't want to feel like you are being ignored, try putting together a coherent argument and cite some resemblance of evidence. Then we can actually have a debate.


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Trumpeteer rinse and repeat fun with a new one...


The instance is about a formal complaint of election fraud against election commission officials acting in their offices the night of November 8th in a red county of Wisconsin.

The complaint states the prima facie case and prima facie evidence of the change of 4,931 votes in four precincts of the very red county that had been given to Trump by elections officials as a bonus vote total.

After the bonus rounds by the election officials had been discovered by local citizens, the votes were subtracted from Trump's total in the precincts, the county, the state.

They were subtracted after precinct elections officials said ooops, we entered three separate vote count totals, three times each, erroneously, into the computer. The same "mistake" was done in each of the four suspect precincts and at the same time the night of November 8th.

The formal Complaint is against the county and precinct election officials tabulating and calculating votes already legitimately cast because they got it grossly wrong. So gonzo wrong that the fraud Complaint was filed with the state Elections Commission to formally and officially investigate -- to investigate it all as election fraud.

Election Fraud. The precincts and the red county reported more votes than voters.

(Not voter fraud. Not hacking of machines.)

The Complaint is that election officials in a red county of a blue state used suspicious means in their unsuccessful attempt to give Donald Trump bonus votes in a very close election in the state.


Press button to resume the Trump cycle of rinse and repeat :arrow:
 
ksu_aviator said:
No. he isn't the reason people believe there is a problem. He is just restating the problem. There where approximately 126.4 million votes cast. If just 1% are fraudulent, then 1.26 million votes are invalid. We have no way to prove the votes invalid so there is no way to know what the real vote count is without a new system.


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His continual repeating that the "election is rigged" isn't the reason people are losing confidence in the electoral process? Really?

There is no evidence of widespread voter fraud.

Allegations of fraud have been investigated, and found to be baseless.

Myth of Voter Fraud
It is important to protect the integrity of our elections. But we must be careful not to undermine free and fair access to the ballot in the name of preventing voter fraud.*
The Brennan Center’s ongoing examination of voter fraud claims reveal that voter fraud is very rare, voter impersonation is nearly non-existent, and much of the problems associated with alleged fraud in elections relates to unintentional mistakes by voters or election administrators. Our report "The Truth About Voter Fraud" reveals most allegations of fraud turn out to be baseless — and that of the few allegations remaining, most reveal election irregularities and other forms of election misconduct. Click here for additional resources on fraud.
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ksu_aviator said:
Where in these statements is the resemblance of an argument? Everything you've thrown out is smattering of regurgitated, thinly veiled personal attacks mixed with word of the day calendar vocabulary and a wondering thought process that brings to mind images of a blind mouse navigating a maze.

If you don't want to feel like you are being ignored, try putting together a coherent argument and cite some resemblance of evidence. Then we can actually have a debate.


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You write, "If you don't want to feel like you are being ignored..."

My statement for the record at this point is that I am not feeling ignored so thanks anyway for your sincere and genuine concern.

The Trumpist rinse and repeat cycle of pretend there's no argument then try to repeatedly and falsely berate is well recognised. It is recurring, chronic, compulsive, obsessive -- endemic to the threads on the various aspects of Trump as a topic.

All because the Right Sector has no rebuttal, reply, response, answer, except to say the Wisconsin clerks made an honest mistake. This poster finds the claim hilarious -- all four precinct locations the night of November 8th at the same time, the very same "mistake" giving Donald Trump only bonus votes -- humongous bonus votes, while the Clinton vote remained unchanged.

Rinse and repeat, post after post of nuthin but hollering and attempts to berate in the most diversionary and vacuous ways.

Carry on.
 
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