• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Constitutional limits?

Hi! Thank you for your post.

I'm a bit wary when it comes to scrapping something which has managed to work reasonably well for almost 250 years. That position is informed by the Republican willingness to scrap the ACA. I've yet to see their replacement for it.

They had a replacement but it did not pass the Senate.

I agree about not replacing the Constitution. If a constitution is too specific it becomes outmoded and must be frequently changed or replaced. Some of the Southern states are good examples with hundreds of amendments.
 
What evidence is there to support your claim the Constitution was written “quite vague.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi!

The document speaks for itself on this point.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from mu old PC, using a cheap keyboard.
 
The Federalist Papers are but one piece of information among many thousands of pieces of information that provide guidance as to what the constitution was understood to say and mean at the time the document was written and ratified. The ratification debates are another piece evidence illuminating a meaning of the constitution. The writings of Blackstone, Sir Edward Coke, Joseph Story, the convention debates and notes, etcetera, are pieces of evidence guiding the reader or researcher as to the meaning of the constitution at or near the time of ratification. The document has not as vague as you think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi!

Thank you for the comment.

Let me place in evidence, regarding the vagueness of the Constitution of the United States of America, all of the Supreme Court cases requiring an interpretation that were not decided 9-0. They number somewhat more than a few.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.
 
They had a replacement but it did not pass the Senate.

I agree about not replacing the Constitution. If a constitution is too specific it becomes outmoded and must be frequently changed or replaced. Some of the Southern states are good examples with hundreds of amendments.

Hi!

Thank you for taking time to respond.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
 
The Constitution is a terrible document because it is so vague.

One of the most ignorant comments about the Constitution I've ever seen.
 
There is nothing vague about our federal Constitution and supreme law of the land.

Much of it is vague. That makes it flexible to change as times change; otherwise, it would appear obsolete and there would be many calls for its replacement.

A good example is the recent Supreme Court case that ruled states can bind electors to vote for the popular vote winner in that state. The Constitution does not make it clear whether an elector is free to vote their choice.

Or, when the 4th says there should be no unreasonable search without a warrant. That means reasonable searches can be performed without a warrant, but what one considers reasonable can vary greatly depending on whether one is a prosecutor or defense attorney.
 
Much of it is vague. That makes it flexible to change as times change; otherwise, it would appear obsolete and there would be many calls for its replacement.

A good example is the recent Supreme Court case that ruled states can bind electors to vote for the popular vote winner in that state. The Constitution does not make it clear whether an elector is free to vote their choice.

Or, when the 4th says there should be no unreasonable search without a warrant. That means reasonable searches can be performed without a warrant, but what one considers reasonable can vary greatly depending on whether one is a prosecutor or defense attorney.

You confuse vagueness with object orientation; and, we have a federal form of Government not a unitary form.
 
You confuse vagueness with object orientation; and, we have a federal form of Government not a unitary form.

The unitary form of government is irrelevant when discussing the 4th Amendment. Assume federal law enforcement conducts a search, the "unreasonable search" provision of the 4th comes into play. If police search without a warrant the court has to determine if that search was reasonable (with probable cause) before it can be admitted into evidence. There a hundreds of cases determining that issue because of the vagueness of the term "unreasonable." Modern technology (electronic surveillance) has made the issue even more complicated.
 
One of the most ignorant comments about the Constitution I've ever seen.

What is your criteria for "ignorant"


Not sharing the same view as yours ?


Tell me why your view of the Constitution could not also be described as "ignorant".
 
Then when does the Supreme Court exist to interpret it ?

And why are not all rulings 9-0 ?

Not because it is vague, but because of politics and conflicting interests under our form of Capitalism.

A lack of 9-0 decisions "proves it is mostly politics".
 
Then when does the Supreme Court exist to interpret it ?

And why are not all rulings 9-0 ?

There are several members on the Court who do not believe they or the rest of the country must adhere a meaning from 1787 but instead desire to breathe a different meaning into the document, one commensurate with contemporary times. It’s called Living Constitutionalism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Much of it is vague. That makes it flexible to change as times change; otherwise, it would appear obsolete and there would be many calls for its replacement.

A good example is the recent Supreme Court case that ruled states can bind electors to vote for the popular vote winner in that state. The Constitution does not make it clear whether an elector is free to vote their choice.

Or, when the 4th says there should be no unreasonable search without a warrant. That means reasonable searches can be performed without a warrant, but what one considers reasonable can vary greatly depending on whether one is a prosecutor or defense attorney.

What’s the evidence for “much of it is vague”?

Ignoring for a moment the recent electoral college case, what was the meaning of the electoral college provisions at or near the time of ratification?

Second, again, what was the original meaning of the 4th Amendment?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hi!

Thank you for the comment.

Let me place in evidence, regarding the vagueness of the Constitution of the United States of America, all of the Supreme Court cases requiring an interpretation that were not decided 9-0. They number somewhat more than a few.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.

Pretty sure you have resorted to a non-sequitur. Those cases decided by a vote other than 9-0 is not evidence necessarily of vagueness. Rather, that is evidence also pointing to one side ignoring the unambiguous meaning, one side ignoring the meaning which isn’t vague, which there is evidence of the Court doing so in its decisions.

So, you’ve not necessarily submitted evidence the document is vague, since this same evidence supports the notion the document isn’t vague but ignored by some on the Court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The unitary form of government is irrelevant when discussing the 4th Amendment. Assume federal law enforcement conducts a search, the "unreasonable search" provision of the 4th comes into play. If police search without a warrant the court has to determine if that search was reasonable (with probable cause) before it can be admitted into evidence. There a hundreds of cases determining that issue because of the vagueness of the term "unreasonable." Modern technology (electronic surveillance) has made the issue even more complicated.
You mean like a "community standard"? It is not vague at all. Unreasonable is the Term our Founding Fathers chose to use not any other term.
 
The unitary form of government is irrelevant when discussing the 4th Amendment. Assume federal law enforcement conducts a search, the "unreasonable search" provision of the 4th comes into play. If police search without a warrant the court has to determine if that search was reasonable (with probable cause) before it can be admitted into evidence. There a hundreds of cases determining that issue because of the vagueness of the term "unreasonable." Modern technology (electronic surveillance) has made the issue even more complicated.

Here’s a proposal. First, attempt to know the original meaning of the text. Once this is discovered, then there’s the determination of how the original meaning applies to today’s technology. The 4th Amendment is not as vague as you suggest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Much of it is vague. That makes it flexible to change as times change; otherwise, it would appear obsolete and there would be many calls for its replacement.

A good example is the recent Supreme Court case that ruled states can bind electors to vote for the popular vote winner in that state. The Constitution does not make it clear whether an elector is free to vote their choice.

Or, when the 4th says there should be no unreasonable search without a warrant. That means reasonable searches can be performed without a warrant, but what one considers reasonable can vary greatly depending on whether one is a prosecutor or defense attorney.

You know, I have to agree with you, most of the constitution is vague and subject to interpretation. Funnily enough, the one amendment that is not vague at all is the 2nd, it may as well be written in stone, yet even that one we fight over, so it would be impossible to make a rigid document due to how language changes. While in highschool, I was convinced that the 2nd was about militias and state rights, it took a very liberal American immigrant history/English teacher (I'm in Canada) to explain it to me, how the sentence is actually two independent clauses, and is misread today due to how the language changed and how a sentence is read. So, while in an original reading and meaning, the 2nd is insanely rigid, it still falls due how people of particular political views will choose to interpret it, including the English language itself, regardless how much evidence there is of it's original meaning or language.

The supreme court does not help here, it took 100 years for the correct interpretation to finally be accepted, but is only one justice away from being overruled.

Most other amendments, including the 1st, go with the wind.
 
You mean like a "community standard"? It is not vague at all. Unreasonable is the Term our Founding Fathers chose to use not any other term.

"Community standard" is still within specific constitutional limitations.

What is reasonable is subjective and has changed over the years.
 
Here’s a proposal. First, attempt to know the original meaning of the text. Once this is discovered, then there’s the determination of how the original meaning applies to today’s technology. The 4th Amendment is not as vague as you suggest.

If it is not vague the court interpretations would not have varied so much over the years and most decisions should have been unanimous. The original meaning cannot be used to interpret modern technology without using subjective reasoning. The original definitions and concepts would not have prevented modern electronic surveillance that does not require police to enter a person's property.
 
You know, I have to agree with you, most of the constitution is vague and subject to interpretation. Funnily enough, the one amendment that is not vague at all is the 2nd, it may as well be written in stone, yet even that one we fight over, so it would be impossible to make a rigid document due to how language changes. While in highschool, I was convinced that the 2nd was about militias and state rights, it took a very liberal American immigrant history/English teacher (I'm in Canada) to explain it to me, how the sentence is actually two independent clauses, and is misread today due to how the language changed and how a sentence is read. So, while in an original reading and meaning, the 2nd is insanely rigid, it still falls due how people of particular political views will choose to interpret it, including the English language itself, regardless how much evidence there is of it's original meaning or language.

The supreme court does not help here, it took 100 years for the correct interpretation to finally be accepted, but is only one justice away from being overruled.

Most other amendments, including the 1st, go with the wind.

I think the 1st appears more absolute than even the 2nd. It says there shall be "no law" restricting speech, press, etc. Justice Black took that literally and always voted to overturn restrictions.

I don't think the interpretation of the 2nd matters that much in practice. Federal and state governments do not choose to impose strict(er) regulations on guns even when legally possible (although some states choose stricter laws).

So, even if the court says the right only applies to those in militias, that does not make gun ownership illegal. Regulations are still based on federal and state laws which are unlikely to make laws any stricter than they are today.
 
"Community standard" is still within specific constitutional limitations.

What is reasonable is subjective and has changed over the years.

I agree to disagree that unreasonable is more vague than community standard.

And, unreasonable is not any more subjective--beyond the limits of acceptability or fairness. It seems quite appropriate and object oriented, not vague in any way.
 
Pretty sure you have resorted to a non-sequitur. Those cases decided by a vote other than 9-0 is not evidence necessarily of vagueness. Rather, that is evidence also pointing to one side ignoring the unambiguous meaning, one side ignoring the meaning which isn’t vague, which there is evidence of the Court doing so in its decisions.

So, you’ve not necessarily submitted evidence the document is vague, since this same evidence supports the notion the document isn’t vague but ignored by some on the Court.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Have a nice day!

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.
 
Hi! Thank you for taking time to post. You make an interesting point regarding the Federalist Papers. For some, they are a direct pipeline into the minds of the founders. They were, as noted, akin to sales brochures.

And so it goes. The Constitution has many faces, depending upon what the reader brings to it.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.

Actually, the Federalist Papers were written by just 3 men: John Jay, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton who wrote the vast majority of them. However, these essays only provided a concept of how our government could be formed and laid out the pros and cons of power each branch of government would wield. For specifics as to what the Framers might have meant or intended on any given phrase of the Constitution, you'd have to refer to the volume of Congressional notes from the period much of which can be found here.
 
Hi! Thank you for taking time to post. You make an interesting point regarding the Federalist Papers. For some, they are a direct pipeline into the minds of the founders. They were, as noted, akin to sales brochures.

And so it goes. The Constitution has many faces, depending upon what the reader brings to it.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.

Actually, the Federalist Papers were written by just 3 men: John Jay, James Madison and Alexander Hamilton who wrote the vast majority of them. However, these essays only provided a concept of how our government could be formed and laid out the pros and cons of power each branch of government would wield. For specifics as to what the Framers might have meant or intended on any given phrase of the Constitution, you'd have to refer to the volume of Congressional notes from the period much of which can be found here.

Now, I agree that due to changing times, Amendments thereto, and thus, any given situation certain aspects of the Constitution can be interpreted differently. Take, for example, gun rights. (If I'm interpreting the ruling correctly...) Until U.S. vs Hiller, the Supreme Court hadn't interpreted gun rights (hand guns) to apply to all citizens except as part of "a well trained militia", i.e., law enforcement or military. That right to bear arms was somewhat convoluted seeing that a police officer - though he had access to a departmental issued hand gun - s/he couldn't go out and purchase a hand gun for personal use. That changed with Hiller and so, too, did the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment where the right to bear arms was concerned.

I won't argue the right or wrong of it, but I will say that since the Hiller ruling, there's been a massive explosion of personal firearms in America.

The same type of argument could be said for the Equal Protection clause of the Constitution, i.e., gay marriage. Again, not arguing the right or wrong of it. Just saying that based on so many other things that came before it where people's basic human rights were being violated based solely on their sexual orientation, the freedom to "enter into a binding contract" to marry whomever you wanted (within statutory limits) was bound to come up against a brick wall sooner or later.

The General Welfare clause...similar thing, i.e., ObamaCare/Medicaid expansion. With ballooning health insurance cost and the shared expense between employer and employee and the fact that in many cases private health insurance isn't portable should one lose their job, this issue is bound to come up before the Supreme Court again at some point in the near future.

Property rights, i.e., slavery and citizenship thereto prior to the 13th and 14th Amendments.

I say all that to say this: IMHO, the U.S. Constitution does have limits. However, those limitations are only as restraining as: 1) The states via Congress ratifying amendments to said supreme law; and 2) SC Justices' interpretation of the subservient laws that bind themselves to the Constitution, i.e., the decision as to whether a law is constitutional or not. Otherwise, the U.S. Constitution stands on its own. The limits aren't necessarily with the document itself. It's in the laws and the interpretations thereto that stand along side it.
 
Back
Top Bottom