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Constitutional limits?

Hi! Thank you for taking time to post.

I, along with you, don't think that the Constitution is unnecessarily vague. I do think that in some instances, vagueness may have obtained because of conflicts of view of the founders on certain issues. The actual motives, as with the motives of some of our current legislators, may not have been recorded for posterity.

With regard to the second statement, 'who we are' -- we Americans -- is not something static but, rather, an ever-changing tapestry of faces and beliefs. In evidence, consider the surprisingly rapid change in the American public's perception of the LGBTQ community. A statement of who we are, if it is to be valid going forward, must be very carefully written. An inclusion of the words 'change' and/or 'changing' would be prudent.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.

Perhaps the framers had to make the Constitution vague in order to get consensus....but the expedient merely passed the problems down a few generations


We can at least agree that the Constitution is not a wonder document and as a manual for directing government how to act it contains many flaws.

It needs to be scrapped and a new constitution passed to replace it.
 
Have you read the 4th or the 10th lately.


#10
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Education. Health. 2 powers "reserved for the States", simply ignored.


Nothing strict interpretation about it.
The 10th says it most succinctly and clearly.

Hi!

In reply to your question: Yes. I have.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.
 
Perhaps the framers had to make the Constitution vague in order to get consensus....but the expedient merely passed the problems down a few generations


We can at least agree that the Constitution is not a wonder document and as a manual for directing government how to act it contains many flaws.

It needs to be scrapped and a new constitution passed to replace it.

Hi! Thank you for your post.

I'm a bit wary when it comes to scrapping something which has managed to work reasonably well for almost 250 years. That position is informed by the Republican willingness to scrap the ACA. I've yet to see their replacement for it.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.
 

Is this superior enough?


#10
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.



What better than The Bill of Rights?
A promise to limit the power of the Federals.


Education is NOT a power granted to the Federals. Nor health. etc.


Nothing ambiguous about the 10th.
Just ignored.


Moi

Our welfare clause is General not Common nor limited in any way. Congress is to Promote the general welfare whenever possible.
 
Our welfare clause is General not Common nor limited in any way. Congress is to Promote the general welfare whenever possible.

Considering the history and why we have a Bill of Rights
I side with the Bill of Rights
as General Welfare clause can be used to invade
our Right to Privacy.
oops it has.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
My electronic communications & electronic foot prints are = "papers, and effects"



Moi



BTW The Greatest State of California had a Great, indigent medical care
system before it was destroyed by LBJ, MediCaid.
Great in that indigents got better quality care. And cheaper per capita too.
Organized at the county level, and each with a medical school affiliation for special cases.

I would not deny the Federals the ability to charge a State with failing, State by State.
Imagine ObamaCare on the State level. 50 designs. Which works best out there.
 
I'm a bit wary when it comes to scrapping something which has managed to work reasonably well for almost 250 years. That position is informed by the Republican willingness to scrap the ACA. I've yet to see their replacement for it.

The Republicans have no replacement for it - and really there can be no justifiable opposition to the act.


The EC failed spectacularly in 2016 when it delivered us Trump when the people voted for Hilary.
 
The Republicans have no replacement for it - and really there can be no justifiable opposition to the act.


The EC failed spectacularly in 2016 when it delivered us Trump when the people voted for Hilary.

Hi! thank you for taking time to respond.

I wish you a safe 'n well evening.
 

Considering the history and why we have a Bill of Rights
I side with the Bill of Rights
as General Welfare clause can be used to invade
our Right to Privacy.
oops it has.
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
My electronic communications & electronic foot prints are = "papers, and effects"



Moi



BTW The Greatest State of California had a Great, indigent medical care
system before it was destroyed by LBJ, MediCaid.
Great in that indigents got better quality care. And cheaper per capita too.
Organized at the county level, and each with a medical school affiliation for special cases.

I would not deny the Federals the ability to charge a State with failing, State by State.
Imagine ObamaCare on the State level. 50 designs. Which works best out there.

Talk to the right wing. It is their warfare-State economy that is the problem. They are ones having problems not being Patriotic enough in their Acts.
 
Talk to the right wing. It is their warfare-State economy that is the problem. They are ones having problems not being Patriotic enough in their Acts.

I wish you might have said a few more words.
Does the General Welfare clause nullify the Bill of Rights?
We Have Been Lawyered Out Of Our, Bill of Rights.

Imagine the surprise of the authors if alive today to witness
the nullification of the Bill of Rights over Federal's assumption of
General Welfare clause supersedes the Bill of Rights.
There is plenty of "general welfare" stuff to consider without treading on the Bill of Rights.



Moi
 
The Constitution is a terrible document because it is so vague.

It's a framework, and Chief Justice Marshall explained this very well:

If the authors of the constitution attempted to document every detail it "would partake of the prolixity of a legal code, and could scarcely be embraced by the human mind. . . . Its nature, therefore, requires that only its great outlines should be marked, its important objects designated, and the minor ingredients which compose those objects be deduced from the nature of the objects themselves."

"We must never forget that it is a constitution we are expounding . . . intended to endure for ages to come, and consequently, to be adapted to the various crises of human affairs."
 
On another thread, I wrote a comment which might be worth further discussion. Here it is.

"The Constitution of the United States of America is a remarkable document. It's also larger than many realize. There's the original Constitution, of course. There's also a series of amendments and an immense quantity of case law as decided by our courts, up to and including the Supreme Court. Case law is added to almost daily.

"The original document could not foresee what the future would hold. The gift to us from its framers was a structure that is often quite vague, leaving room for interpretation. That's where amendments and case law come in.

"There's also ideological interpretation. This ranges from a fundamentalist-like 'strict' interpretation through a number of increasingly less strict views. It's important to note that none of these are banned by the constitution itself. They're dogma, plain and simple. So, whenever you hear a statement that this or that is 'unconstitutional', there's a caveat; What is the ideology of the person making the statement? It matters."

The area for discussion, of course, is the limits, if any, on just how far ideology can go in constitutional interpretation. As a start, a strict Ur interpretation would say that only Congress can make laws. We must then question the legality of presidential executive orders. Or, to open another can of annelids, when is a decision by the Supreme Court 'making new law', and does the Constitution specifically prohibit this?

Regards, and have at it. [Please avoid Dem/Rep or lib/con references. They can only detract from serious discussion.]

Ideology comes with factions. Federalist 29 warns us of factions and Washing said that political parties (ideologies) in this country were a bad thing. I think that now we can easily see how right both were. Today's "public interpretations" are not objective and the ideas of limitations and what they are or should be has become increasingly murky and that is by design: see today's Supreme Court as an example.

Limitations were written into the constitution to prevent absolutism and encroachment on free will and lawful actions. Amendments have been added to prevent such encroachments by absolutists factions that can and do control government policies and the legislative process. But through the amendment process, the US constitution IS a living document and that is by design as well. WE decide what the limits are and are not.
 
"The Constitution of the United States of America is a remarkable document. It's also larger than many realize. There's the original Constitution, of course. There's also a series of amendments and an immense quantity of case law as decided by our courts, up to and including the Supreme Court. Case law is added to almost daily.

"The original document could not foresee what the future would hold. The gift to us from its framers was a structure that is often quite vague, leaving room for interpretation. That's where amendments and case law come in.

"There's also ideological interpretation. This ranges from a fundamentalist-like 'strict' interpretation through a number of increasingly less strict views. It's important to note that none of these are banned by the constitution itself. They're dogma, plain and simple. So, whenever you hear a statement that this or that is 'unconstitutional', there's a caveat; What is the ideology of the person making the statement? It matters."


The area for discussion, of course, is the limits, if any, on just how far ideology can go in constitutional interpretation. As a start, a strict Ur interpretation would say that only Congress can make laws. We must then question the legality of presidential executive orders. Or, to open another can of annelids, when is a decision by the Supreme Court 'making new law', and does the Constitution specifically prohibit this?

I would offer to you a question on the nature or the scope of the discussion you want to have. Understand that for the purposes of this conversation I am not necessarily arguing for or against any one ideological take on this, but just in terms of “constitutional limits” as you have described in what we have seen from inception to present but also in terms of governmental theory there really is *no limit.*

As shocking as that may sound.

Right or wrong in your opinion, agree or not with a few decisions along the way, but the very government that we see today has been an accumulation of decisions down to interpretations where one could argue well there are few if any bounds.

No matter if looking down to the letter and context of the wording of the Constitution, the Amendments, regulations laws and updates to, court interpretations (or perhaps better phrased as accepted precedents set,) what have you we proven with the US history timeline that governance tends to expand no matter how well intentioned the original document suggested means of government limitation.

I say it that way for a reason, no one back then could have possibly envisioned what we see today but more importantly our society and economy today has no comparison to functional norms back then. That opens up ideological interpretation.

To your point, to hear that something is not constitutional does end up rooted in an ideological position(s) on some subject but by design that is adversarial to some other ideological position(s) suggesting they are operating within constitutional limits.

One conversation we could have is what *should* be baseline and stand the test of time limitations on governance to avoid authoritarianism, totalitarianism, etc.

But another conversation we may want to have as well is what should we as voting citizens allow from the ideologies in charge to then change things along the way in order to deal with new challenges and even more social and economic evolution we will no doubt see.

The only thing that really loses in the debate is the ideology that did not get their way, the Constitution itself (also to another point you made) is about as fluid as it gets when adding in all the law, interpretation, and precedents we see damn near daily from our model of government.

The phrase “constitutional limits” then becomes just bumper sticker thinking, if there was any truth to the concept then our real arguments would boil down to very different subject when the government grants itself wide latitude for taxation as one example, or grant itself capability to mass spy over its citizens as another, or take a nation that literally has spent more years at war or conflict with someone else than at peace, or made itself the incarceration capital of the plant, the list goes on.

I am stuck with my original conclusion, there is no limit because so far we have not really seen one. Ideologically we can agree or disagree on just about any of these things but the simple fact that we have such operation as a nation today suggests the people are only important on Election Day. Otherwise, the ship sailed a long way back on the idea of constitutional limits as applied to anything or any subject.
 
Ideology comes with factions. Federalist 29 warns us of factions and Washing said that political parties (ideologies) in this country were a bad thing. I think that now we can easily see how right both were. Today's "public interpretations" are not objective and the ideas of limitations and what they are or should be has become increasingly murky and that is by design: see today's Supreme Court as an example.

Limitations were written into the constitution to prevent absolutism and encroachment on free will and lawful actions. Amendments have been added to prevent such encroachments by absolutists factions that can and do control government policies and the legislative process. But through the amendment process, the US constitution IS a living document and that is by design as well. WE decide what the limits are and are not.

Hi!

Thank you for your extensive response.

Might I suggest something to reflect upon? We have seen, in the past few decades, just how much a single political party can, through gerrymandering and other means, change American society. We are witness to the accumulation of power in the administrative section of our federal government and the emasculation of the legislative branch. The attempt to control the Supreme Court itself is on-going.

Given the above, and knowledge of our own Constitution, review the take-over of various countries -- 1930's Italy and Germany, present day Hungary and Turkey -- and ask yourself, can it happen here?

I find it difficult to be certain of an answer of 'No'.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
 
I would offer to you a question on the nature or the scope of the discussion you want to have. Understand that for the purposes of this conversation I am not necessarily arguing for or against any one ideological take on this, but just in terms of “constitutional limits” as you have described in what we have seen from inception to present but also in terms of governmental theory there really is *no limit.*

As shocking as that may sound.

Right or wrong in your opinion, agree or not with a few decisions along the way, but the very government that we see today has been an accumulation of decisions down to interpretations where one could argue well there are few if any bounds.

No matter if looking down to the letter and context of the wording of the Constitution, the Amendments, regulations laws and updates to, court interpretations (or perhaps better phrased as accepted precedents set,) what have you we proven with the US history timeline that governance tends to expand no matter how well intentioned the original document suggested means of government limitation.

I say it that way for a reason, no one back then could have possibly envisioned what we see today but more importantly our society and economy today has no comparison to functional norms back then. That opens up ideological interpretation.

To your point, to hear that something is not constitutional does end up rooted in an ideological position(s) on some subject but by design that is adversarial to some other ideological position(s) suggesting they are operating within constitutional limits.

One conversation we could have is what *should* be baseline and stand the test of time limitations on governance to avoid authoritarianism, totalitarianism, etc.

But another conversation we may want to have as well is what should we as voting citizens allow from the ideologies in charge to then change things along the way in order to deal with new challenges and even more social and economic evolution we will no doubt see.

The only thing that really loses in the debate is the ideology that did not get their way, the Constitution itself (also to another point you made) is about as fluid as it gets when adding in all the law, interpretation, and precedents we see damn near daily from our model of government.

The phrase “constitutional limits” then becomes just bumper sticker thinking, if there was any truth to the concept then our real arguments would boil down to very different subject when the government grants itself wide latitude for taxation as one example, or grant itself capability to mass spy over its citizens as another, or take a nation that literally has spent more years at war or conflict with someone else than at peace, or made itself the incarceration capital of the plant, the list goes on.

I am stuck with my original conclusion, there is no limit because so far we have not really seen one. Ideologically we can agree or disagree on just about any of these things but the simple fact that we have such operation as a nation today suggests the people are only important on Election Day. Otherwise, the ship sailed a long way back on the idea of constitutional limits as applied to anything or any subject.

Hi! And thank you for your extensive response. You've done to me precisely what I, in my little mini-essays, attempt to do to others; cause someone to stop and actually think. [Ed.: As opposed to mouthing meaningless memorized talking points.] I suspect we could spend a number of pleasant evenings sharing a bottle of this or that and chatting.

'Nuf. Back to work.

The scope of discussion, I guess, would be in the form of a question. Given: There are numerous ways to interpret the US Constitution, from strict construction-ism through a whole panoply of increasingly liberal positions. Can we decide whether one is better than another? [Alternately, for those who have difficulty in going beyond Aristotelian logic, which is 'right'?]

This ['better'] leads us straight down the path to an exploration of the functions of human society and an enumeration of its goals. The classic triumvirate of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness would perhaps better be replaced by food, clothing, shelter and health care as a starting point for discussion.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, you touched upon another frighteningly important subject, the gathering by a government of power unto itself. That would require another evening and at least another bottle. I'd have to brush up on the latest happenings in Turkey and Hungary, too.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
 
I wish you might have said a few more words.
Does the General Welfare clause nullify the Bill of Rights?
We Have Been Lawyered Out Of Our, Bill of Rights.

Imagine the surprise of the authors if alive today to witness
the nullification of the Bill of Rights over Federal's assumption of
General Welfare clause supersedes the Bill of Rights.
There is plenty of "general welfare" stuff to consider without treading on the Bill of Rights.



Moi

I have no idea what you are talking about. It is not our general welfare clause that is the problem. It is the right wing and their extra-Constitutional general warfare programs that are doing what you suggest.
 
Hi!

Thank you for your extensive response.

Might I suggest something to reflect upon? We have seen, in the past few decades, just how much a single political party can, through gerrymandering and other means, change American society. We are witness to the accumulation of power in the administrative section of our federal government and the emasculation of the legislative branch. The attempt to control the Supreme Court itself is on-going.

Given the above, and knowledge of our own Constitution, review the take-over of various countries -- 1930's Italy and Germany, present day Hungary and Turkey -- and ask yourself, can it happen here?

I find it difficult to be certain of an answer of 'No'.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Thank you.

To your point, I have maintained that the far right's intention is to take the country back to the antebellum south and rule by corporate and private estates, that is to say, to create a new house of lords whereby they set the social construct.
 
Thank you.

To your point, I have maintained that the far right's intention is to take the country back to the antebellum south and rule by corporate and private estates, that is to say, to create a new house of lords whereby they set the social construct.

The far right is more or less indistinguishable from the right these days. I, for one, have great difficulty in seeing a dividing line 'twixt them. An interesting exercise is to list five current issues on which they differ.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.
 
The far right is more or less indistinguishable from the right these days. I, for one, have great difficulty in seeing a dividing line 'twixt them. An interesting exercise is to list five current issues on which they differ.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.


I will agree with you. I use 'far right' because I like to keep that description up front. Those are the ones that are writing the rules beginning with Mcconnell and his sponsors: ALEC, the heritage foundation and others. These people write legislation and and it off to their subordinates in government. The armed thuggery of the far right and Lush Rumbaugh etc carry the flag. I think that November will be the great test of American history.
 
The scope of discussion, I guess, would be in the form of a question. Given: There are numerous ways to interpret the US Constitution, from strict construction-ism through a whole panoply of increasingly liberal positions. Can we decide whether one is better than another? [Alternately, for those who have difficulty in going beyond Aristotelian logic, which is 'right'?]

This ['better'] leads us straight down the path to an exploration of the functions of human society and an enumeration of its goals. The classic triumvirate of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness would perhaps better be replaced by food, clothing, shelter and health care as a starting point for discussion.

Within the framework of your question, I am unsure given where we are now that there is a better, or more correct, position to take on the Constitution.

Truth be told, my opinion of the original US Constitution is that it was a brilliant but very flawed document. Even with the inclusion of the Bill of Rights we have this sunshine and roses opinion looking back but the Constitution did not apply to everyone equally, including at the point the ink dried. More than just the context of the period including slavery, the majority of the intention was dealing with the protections of white landowners who wanted a say so in governance but elected for a "minimal government" approach that intentionally threw issues beyond federal governance to the states to figure out no matter what their own State Constitutions granted the individual. Again the idea being white landowners, who decided on the direction of the nation politically while they almost from the start decided to grow governance and grow intervention in society and the economy.

Even by the time of the 13th Amendment we already saw great political division *not* in the limitation of government but the ideological application of governing. Expansions and a civil war thrown in did not help but in the end the result was both aristocracy and authority not envisioned by the original authors. By that time we already had a de facto central bank, plenty of law on the books, handling international issues including trade, and enough state to state dispute to keep the Supreme Court busy. Government was already growing, guided by plenty of competing ideologies, it just became exponential as we made our way into the 1900's in how far government presence increased.

The point is there is no such thing as "strict constitutionalism" as that was discarded the moment we had our 1st government.

The other point is today's interpretations from various "conservatism" or "liberal" ideologies are just flip sides of the same coin. Neither one is really all about individualism, that is just more bumper sticker thinking. Today's conservatism is just as likely to ideologically agree to increases in authority in the areas of military, centralized and monopolistic business models, social conservatism to the point of marginalization (think Islamic social conservatism,) theocracy, and even wide spread domestic spying capability as today's liberalism is just as likely to agree to increases in authority towards economic and/or social outcomes via any number of means that literally means collectivism to the point of failed upon failed socialism models of government elsewhere.

What I am trying to tell you is through Constitutional interpretation, laws and regulation, and sheer self serving modern aristocratic thinking the goal of government today is how to apply authority to political ends. None of which is specified as Constitutionally sound.

More harsh truth be told the Supreme Court invented law just as much with Roe v. Wade as it did with the infamous Citizens United decision. Another phrase for precedence is passive acceptance of political direction having nothing to do with Constitutional standards. But the Supreme Court is not alone in this, Congress gives itself all sorts of authority to damn near act like the Judicial Branch and Executive Branch, just as numerous Presidents do with Executive Orders pretending to be "legislation-light."

If there is a better, or more correct interpretation, of the Constitution it is... we need to start over with something more sound if the expectation is ever to limit the Federal Government from giving itself expanded power and scope with each passing Administration, Congress, and session of the Supreme Court.

But fair warning, in our modern times there is a balance between individualism and community (just as there is a balance between market and planned economics, just as there is a balance between belief and fact, etc.) If we lose sight of that governance still wins, and so does authoritarianism that today's prevailing ideologies cling to more strongly than Baptists do the Bible.
 
Hi!

Thank you for your extensive response.

Might I suggest something to reflect upon? We have seen, in the past few decades, just how much a single political party can, through gerrymandering and other means, change American society. We are witness to the accumulation of power in the administrative section of our federal government and the emasculation of the legislative branch. The attempt to control the Supreme Court itself is on-going.

Given the above, and knowledge of our own Constitution, review the take-over of various countries -- 1930's Italy and Germany, present day Hungary and Turkey -- and ask yourself, can it happen here?

I find it difficult to be certain of an answer of 'No'.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.


There's nothing really bad about a party controlling a country's government for decades if it wins successive elections honestly

It means that it has a clear message for its people and retains electoral support.


The best example I can think of is Japan's Liberal-Democratic party which has been in power almost continuously since 1955.
 
It is purposely vague while being specific where needed. The trap all of us fall into is the desire for it to read like a municipal code. It cannot be so specific or it would be thousands of pages long. I do agree with you that much of what we fight over though is a direct result of it being purposely vague in very important sections. The Federalist Papers were written to convince voters that the language meant something specific even though it seemed vague. Unfortunately, they are not part of the law but merely references of the intent of three of the men who signed it. Three very important men but only three nonetheless.

What evidence is there the constitution was written “purposely vague”? I ask because there is a lot of evidence breathing a reasonable meaning, that at times maybe be reasonably flexible to a degree, into many of its provisions.

I can find very little evidence from the framers or founding generation the document was “purposefully vague.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
On another thread, I wrote a comment which might be worth further discussion. Here it is.

"The Constitution of the United States of America is a remarkable document. It's also larger than many realize. There's the original Constitution, of course. There's also a series of amendments and an immense quantity of case law as decided by our courts, up to and including the Supreme Court. Case law is added to almost daily.

"The original document could not foresee what the future would hold. The gift to us from its framers was a structure that is often quite vague, leaving room for interpretation. That's where amendments and case law come in.

"There's also ideological interpretation. This ranges from a fundamentalist-like 'strict' interpretation through a number of increasingly less strict views. It's important to note that none of these are banned by the constitution itself. They're dogma, plain and simple. So, whenever you hear a statement that this or that is 'unconstitutional', there's a caveat; What is the ideology of the person making the statement? It matters."

The area for discussion, of course, is the limits, if any, on just how far ideology can go in constitutional interpretation. As a start, a strict Ur interpretation would say that only Congress can make laws. We must then question the legality of presidential executive orders. Or, to open another can of annelids, when is a decision by the Supreme Court 'making new law', and does the Constitution specifically prohibit this?

Regards, and have at it. [Please avoid Dem/Rep or lib/con references. They can only detract from serious discussion.]

What evidence is there to support your claim the Constitution was written “quite vague.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Hi! Thank you for taking time to post. You make an interesting point regarding the Federalist Papers. For some, they are a direct pipeline into the minds of the founders. They were, as noted, akin to sales brochures.

And so it goes. The Constitution has many faces, depending upon what the reader brings to it.

Regards, stay safe 'n well.

Sent from my old PC, using a cheap keyboard.

The Federalist Papers are but one piece of information among many thousands of pieces of information that provide guidance as to what the constitution was understood to say and mean at the time the document was written and ratified. The ratification debates are another piece evidence illuminating a meaning of the constitution. The writings of Blackstone, Sir Edward Coke, Joseph Story, the convention debates and notes, etcetera, are pieces of evidence guiding the reader or researcher as to the meaning of the constitution at or near the time of ratification. The document has not as vague as you think.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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