Oath? A formality that doesn't mean much to some

Jonsa · Dec 17, 2019

Given that both McConnell and Graham et. al. have declared their intention to dismiss the entire impeachment process PRIOR to the trial, one has to wonder if they must recuse themselves because they can't in all good conscience swear the oath required of the senators in an impeachment trial.

“Before proceeding to the consideration of the articles of impeachment,” according to the standing rules of Senate impeachment trials, “the Presiding Officer shall administer the oath hereinafter provided to the members of the Senate then present and to the other members of the Senate as they shall appear, whose duty it shall be to take the same.”

The oath “hereinafter provided” does not oblige senators to act “in total coordination with the White House counsel and attorneys for the accused”; nor does it commit them to doing “everything I can to make this trial die quickly” and to not “pretend to be a fair juror here.” Rather, the oath that both Graham and McConnell will swear reads as follows:

“I solemnly swear (or affirm, as the case may be) that in all things appertaining to the trial of the impeachment of Donald J. Trump, now pending, I will do impartial justice according to the Constitution and laws: So help me God.’’

Can't get much more disrespect for the rule of law than that, not that trumpians will notice or care. they're giggling as the constitution is being shredded by Donnie "absolute immunity" Trump.

Thoreau72 · Dec 18, 2019

All those clowns in the federal government have taken an oath to protect and defend the US Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The vast majority of those clowns ignore their oath of office. Why should I believe that somehow they will suddenly honor another oath?

Divine_Wind · Dec 18, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
All those clowns in the federal government have taken an oath to protect and defend the US Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

The vast majority of those clowns ignore their oath of office. Why should I believe that somehow they will suddenly honor another oath?

Sad but true. Ronald Reagan must be rolling over in his grave at the idea of a pro-Russian Republican President and party.

Thoreau72 · Dec 18, 2019

Rising Sun said:
Sad but true. Ronald Reagan must be rolling over in his grave at the idea of a pro-Russian Republican President and party.

Reagan was senile or nearly so during his last term. So senile he was "unaware" of the Iran-Contra scam.

That said, I think you're waxing dramatic regarding the Russophobia so prevalent today.

jonny5 · Dec 18, 2019

Jonsa said:
Given that both McConnell and Graham et. al. have declared their intention to dismiss the entire impeachment process PRIOR to the trial, one has to wonder if they must recuse themselves because they can't in all good conscience swear the oath required of the senators in an impeachment trial.

Can't get much more disrespect for the rule of law than that, not that trumpians will notice or care. they're giggling as the constitution is being shredded by Donnie "absolute immunity" Trump.

Of course it doesnt matter. Politicians make false promises as easy as breathing. Why do you care when you live in Canada?

Divine_Wind · Dec 18, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
Reagan was senile or nearly so during his last term. So senile he was "unaware" of the Iran-Contra scam.

That said, I think you're waxing dramatic regarding the Russophobia so prevalent today.

No doubt Reagan was, indeed, suffering from dementia in his last term. As for the Russians, I believe the DNI report; the Russians are a hostile power and are definitely not our friends no matter how many Americans suck up to them....including our own President.

Jonsa · Dec 18, 2019

jonny5 said:
Of course it doesnt matter. Politicians make false promises as easy as breathing. Why do you care when you live in Canada?

So you believe this whole oath taking thing is just cover for bull****ting politicians, so help you god?

Its amazing how so many are so parochial in the richest, strongest most influential nation in human history, founded on the most important document in human history who serves as a beacon of hope and freedom for billions. Nah no reason whatsoever to be intensely interested in what our principle partners in all things democratic (process not party), economic and social are up to.

jonny5 · Dec 18, 2019

Jonsa said:
So you believe this whole oath taking thing is just cover for bull****ting politicians, so help you god?

Its amazing how so many are so parochial in the richest, strongest most influential nation in human history, founded on the most important document in human history who serves as a beacon of hope and freedom for billions. Nah no reason whatsoever to be intensely interested in what our principle partners in all things democratic (process not party), economic and social are up to.

Mind your own business, yes. When you have your own country figured out then you can worry about others. And yeah, the oath is meaningless. Words dont matter. Actions matter.

Jonsa · Dec 18, 2019

jonny5 said:
Mind your own business, yes. When you have your own country figured out then you can worry about others. And yeah, the oath is meaningless. Words dont matter. Actions matter.

Wow. mind your own business. Sorry bubby but what goes on in America IS the business of the rest of the world. You don't get to be the leader by telling everyone else to bugger off.

If the oath is meaningless to you, then so must honor and integrity.

Words don't matter, which must explain why the constitution is so much toilet paper in trumpland.

Actions also matter, which is why Trump is being impeached today.

Grand Mal · Dec 18, 2019

jonny5 said:
Mind your own business, yes. When you have your own country figured out then you can worry about others. And yeah, the oath is meaningless. Words dont matter. Actions matter.

Ooh. Mind your own business. Must sting a bit, being schooled on American politics by a Canadian, huh?
Swearing an oath is an action. You probably don't think so because Americans swear oaths like other people change their socks. Do you remember how old you were the first time you recited the pledge of allegiance, or how many times you've said those words since? No wonder oaths don't matter to you.

Thoreau72 · Dec 18, 2019

Rising Sun said:
No doubt Reagan was, indeed, suffering from dementia in his last term. As for the Russians, I believe the DNI report; the Russians are a hostile power and are definitely not our friends no matter how many Americans suck up to them....including our own President.

We agree to disagree on the Russia as a hostile power thing. The American people, credulous as they are, were sold a bill of goods regarding the last election. Some bought it, and some did not.

The hostile power in our midst is Israel. Through lobbying with AIPAC we have the situation today where in 20 some odd states, it is a criminal offense to exercise one's First Amendment right to boycott, if the object of that boycott is Israel.

In 1967 Israeli forces attacked the USS Liberty, killing many US sailors in the process. I don't think there is an event in recorded history where Russia has done such a deed against US forces, but maybe you can refresh my memory.

Divine_Wind · Dec 18, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
We agree to disagree on the Russia as a hostile power thing. The American people, credulous as they are, were sold a bill of goods regarding the last election. Some bought it, and some did not.

The hostile power in our midst is Israel. Through lobbying with AIPAC we have the situation today where in 20 some odd states, it is a criminal offense to exercise one's First Amendment right to boycott, if the object of that boycott is Israel.

In 1967 Israeli forces attacked the USS Liberty, killing many US sailors in the process. I don't think there is an event in recorded history where Russia has done such a deed against US forces, but maybe you can refresh my memory.

So you think all of our nation's intelligence sources, both military and civilian, are in on a conspiracy to lie to the public? Wow. We'll have to agree to disagree with your assertion that the Russians are our friends.

Meh on Israel. We're using them more than they are using us. I've worked with the Israelis when in the military. As the most stable democracy in a sea of chaotic despotism, they are useful to American security. Yes, the Liberty incident was wrong. The fact the Russians are responsible for killing thousands of Americans is worse.

Thoreau72 · Dec 18, 2019

Rising Sun said:
So you think all of our nation's intelligence sources, both military and civilian, are in on a conspiracy to lie to the public? Wow. We'll have to agree to disagree with your assertion that the Russians are our friends.

Meh on Israel. We're using them more than they are using us. I've worked with the Israelis when in the military. As the most stable democracy in a sea of chaotic despotism, they are useful to American security. Yes, the Liberty incident was wrong. The fact the Russians are responsible for killing thousands of Americans is worse.

Probably one of the differences between you and me is that at age 21 as a young US Army Lieutenant, I found out for real that the CIA was in the dope business. So please pardon my cynicism. The recent release of the 'Afghanistan Papers' for me is not at all surprising, rather like Deja Vu all over again, thinking of the Pentagon Papers in 1975.

Yes Virginia, your government through its employees and media lie to you pretty much all the damn time. I might be cynical, but that does not mean I am wrong.

Who can make a rational and persuasive argument that believing the statements of known liars is a rational and intelligent thing to do?

Whether it's a conspiracy or not, the empirical evidence, huge mountains of it over decades, shows that the government lies often.

Divine_Wind · Dec 18, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
Probably one of the differences between you and me is that at age 21 as a young US Army Lieutenant, I found out for real that the CIA was in the dope business. So please pardon my cynicism. The recent release of the 'Afghanistan Papers' for me is not at all surprising, rather like Deja Vu all over again, thinking of the Pentagon Papers in 1975.

Yes Virginia, your government through its employees and media lie to you pretty much all the damn time. I might be cynical, but that does not mean I am wrong.

Who can make a rational and persuasive argument that believing the statements of known liars is a rational and intelligent thing to do?

Whether it's a conspiracy or not, the empirical evidence, huge mountains of it over decades, shows that the government lies often.

Some CIA agents used Vietnam to run dope. It wasn't agency policy. How, as a lowly lieutenant were you in on CIA ops?

Thoreau72 · Dec 18, 2019

Rising Sun said:
Some CIA agents used Vietnam to run dope. It wasn't agency policy. How, as a lowly lieutenant were you in on CIA ops?

I wasn't in on it at all, nada. But a friend of mine just getting out of the Army had secured employment with Air America flying helicopters. He stopped in and visited his old friends, we were all very young, and as shocked as he was to learn his new job involved moving raw opium around in those helicopters. A big education, rather a loss of virginity for us, if you see my point.

jonny5 · Dec 19, 2019

Jonsa said:
Wow. mind your own business. Sorry bubby but what goes on in America IS the business of the rest of the world. You don't get to be the leader by telling everyone else to bugger off.

If the oath is meaningless to you, then so must honor and integrity.

Words don't matter, which must explain why the constitution is so much toilet paper in trumpland.

Actions also matter, which is why Trump is being impeached today.

Hah, ironically in this case, its the WORDS that matter. No actual action was taken on this alleged quid pro quo.

But I would say ACTING according to the spirit of the oath shows far more honor and integrity than making promises.

Thoreau72 · Dec 19, 2019

Jonsa said:
Wow. mind your own business. Sorry bubby but what goes on in America IS the business of the rest of the world. You don't get to be the leader by telling everyone else to bugger off.

If the oath is meaningless to you, then so must honor and integrity.

Words don't matter, which must explain why the constitution is so much toilet paper in trumpland.

Actions also matter, which is why Trump is being impeached today.

To keep things in historical perspective, the Constitution became toilet paper long before Trump took office. Yes, he has contributed to that shameful situation, just as he has embraced the Unitary Executive delivered by Cheney & Bush and loved by Obama, but the document was trashed long before The Donald came in.

Jonsa · Dec 19, 2019

jonny5 said:
Hah, ironically in this case, its the WORDS that matter. No actual action was taken on this alleged quid pro quo.

But I would say ACTING according to the spirit of the oath shows far more honor and integrity than making promises.

The action was the asking.

jonny5 · Dec 19, 2019

Jonsa said:
The action was the asking.

Only in that words require the act of speaking. But there was no actual action here. No quid, no quo. No convincing proof that one was even intended.

So ironically, he was impeached over thought crime.

Jonsa · Dec 19, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
To keep things in historical perspective, the Constitution became toilet paper long before Trump took office. Yes, he has contributed to that shameful situation, just as he has embraced the Unitary Executive delivered by Cheney & Bush and loved by Obama, but the document was trashed long before The Donald came in.

Yes, the accusation has been politically "au courrant" for decades if not since the day after the founding for quite some time.

But Dear Leader has taken it to an entirely different level. Absolute Immunity empowers him to defy legal congressional subpoenas? and republicans are steadfastly defending it.

A constitutional crisis if ever there was one.

Jonsa · Dec 19, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
We agree to disagree on the Russia as a hostile power thing. The American people, credulous as they are, were sold a bill of goods regarding the last election. Some bought it, and some did not.

Hostile power thing? Well that one scores high on the "cavalier dismissal of reality" scale. somebody's trying to sell something around here and it goes far beyond the last election.

The hostile power in our midst is Israel. Through lobbying with AIPAC we have the situation today where in 20 some odd states, it is a criminal offense to exercise one's First Amendment right to boycott, if the object of that boycott is Israel.

In 1967 Israeli forces attacked the USS Liberty, killing many US sailors in the process. I don't think there is an event in recorded history where Russia has done such a deed against US forces, but maybe you can refresh my memory.

ITS THE JEWS!!!!!!!

The hostile power in America's midst are neofascist racist far right nationalists, abetted by the aggressive hostile machinations of global adversaries. And you want to make it about the jews.

Gee. wonder why?

Thoreau72 · Dec 20, 2019

Jonsa said:
Hostile power thing? Well that one scores high on the "cavalier dismissal of reality" scale. somebody's trying to sell something around here and it goes far beyond the last election.

ITS THE JEWS!!!!!!!

The hostile power in America's midst are neofascist racist far right nationalists, abetted by the aggressive hostile machinations of global adversaries. And you want to make it about the jews.

Gee. wonder why?

Sheer coincidence isn't it, that the Neocon Chorus during the Bush Administration consisted of many dual citizen Israelis.

Comic relief, as DJT dutifully wears his Kippah at so many occasions, as there is talk of turning part of the Golan Heights into Trump Heights. I wonder who dutifully wears the Kippah more frequently, Donald or his son? When Bibi visits town he stays in the son's quarters.

So whose pocket is DJT really in, Putin's or Bibi's?

Jonsa · Dec 20, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
Sheer coincidence isn't it, that the Neocon Chorus during the Bush Administration consisted of many dual citizen Israelis.

Comic relief, as DJT dutifully wears his Kippah at so many occasions, as there is talk of turning part of the Golan Heights into Trump Heights. I wonder who dutifully wears the Kippah more frequently, Donald or his son? When Bibi visits town he stays in the son's quarters.

So whose pocket is DJT really in, Putin's or Bibi's?

who says he's restricted to only one pocket? Certain isn't restricted to one *****.

Thoreau72 · Dec 20, 2019

Jonsa said:
who says he's restricted to only one pocket? Certain isn't restricted to one *****.

True enough. :lol:

The thing is that Herr Mueller could not find anything in 2 years of "investigations" to show that Trump was in Vlad's pocket.

OTOH there are many publicly known facts showing how cozy Donald and Bibi are. Trump Heights, LOL. But the American people snooze on, distracted by the absurd impeachment fiasco.

Jonsa · Dec 20, 2019

Thoreau72 said:
True enough. :lol:

The thing is that Herr Mueller could not find anything in 2 years of "investigations" to show that Trump was in Vlad's pocket.

OTOH there are many publicly known facts showing how cozy Donald and Bibi are. Trump Heights, LOL. But the American people snooze on, distracted by the absurd impeachment fiasco.

You mischaracterize meullers findings. There's tons of evidence of warm and fuzzies between Trump, his campaign and the Russians. It just didn't rise to the level of criminal conspiracy. It sure was collusion tho.

And considering that this week both Vlad and Trump are using the exact same talking points on impeachment, it does make one wonder who got them from whom.

Oath? A formality that doesn't mean much to some

Russian warship, go f*** yourself!