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Thread: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

  1. #11
    Educator TheDoctorWasIn's Avatar
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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    A trial presupposes two adversarial parties and the Senate rules dictate who they are. One is not in attendance. Now what?
    How the Senate "tries" the President is non-justiciable. It is entirely up to them.

    They could vote to acquit a moment after the Articles of Impeachment are read for the first time, and there's nothing that could be done about it.
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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by lwf View Post
    I don't think that's possible from my understanding of the impeachment process. This would be tantamount to refusing to consider articles of impeachment. If they don't want to remove the president, they can vote so.
    Well, yes. That's what voting to dismiss the charges would mean - they are voting to not remove the President.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    How the Senate "tries" the President is non-justiciable. It is entirely up to them.

    They could vote to acquit a moment after the Articles of Impeachment are read for the first time, and there's nothing that could be done about it.
    My argument is that is pretty much their only option absent prosecuting council and its a pretty hollow victory, if you think about it. The House shows complete contempt for this Senate and its capacity to be fair jurors and then the Senate proves how right it is by taking the action to vote to acquit, rather than doing nothing but 'receive' the articles and dismiss the case with or without prejudice.
    Last edited by btthegreat; 11-06-19 at 03:42 AM.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    My argument is that is pretty much their only option absent prosecuting council and its a pretty hollow victory, if you think about it.
    If the House managers didn't show up, that would hand the Senate Republicans a technicality that would allow them to just dismiss the charges for failure to prosecute.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    If the House managers didn't show up, that would hand the Senate Republicans a technicality that would allow them to just dismiss the charges for failure to prosecute.

    Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
    why does the House care if it determines that the Senate trial is nothing more than a charade and a fakery designed to undercut the House Managers and their case at every opportunity? The purpose of this impeachment process is not to impress a Senate ruled by Mitch McConnell but to impress the American public. Once their hearings are over, and the House debate and votes are cast, why give the Senatitors and Trump's attorneys the target they seek, if that technicality induces the dismissal means that the lasting memories implanted in the public will be House memories. Maybe its smarter to control the narrative while this is a story, and then clip the story of its wings, when Dems no longer control the narrative.
    Last edited by btthegreat; 11-06-19 at 03:51 AM.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    why does the House care if it determines that the Senate trial is nothing more than a charade and a fakery designed to undercut the House Managers and their case at every opportunity? The purpose of this impeachment process is not to impress a Senate ruled by Mitch McConnell but to impress the American public. Once their hearings are over, and the House debate and votes are cast, who give the Senate the target they seek? That technicality induces the dismissal means that the lasting memories implanted in the public will be House memories.
    Personally, I don't think the House will vote on articles of impeachment. I think they'll spend the next 12 months holding hearings after hearings, unless something comes out that'll truly shift public opinion dramatically.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    Personally, I don't think the House will vote on articles of impeachment. I think they'll spend the next 12 months holding hearings after hearings, unless something comes out that'll truly shift public opinion dramatically.
    That too is possible, but I doubt it. I think Pelosi will push forward, this now while she has the votes rather than stall it and risk losing too many. In either case, the House does its duty by providing a public record of these charges and the testimony and the evidence while it is fresh and hopefully winning some important caselaw victories that add to the precedent on supremacy of Congressional subpoena powers. Historians and legal scholars gain if nobody else does.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by btthegreat View Post
    That too is possible, but I doubt it. I think Pelosi will push forward, this now while she has the votes rather than stall it and risk losing too many. In either case, the House does its duty by providing a public record of these charges and the testimony and the evidence while it is fresh and hopefully winning some important caselaw victories that add to the precedent on supremacy of Congressional subpoena powers.
    She's unlikely to lose any votes, the more hearings that occur. If anything, she'll gain votes.

    The question is whether she'll get enough votes in the Senate, which is unlikely.

    And Pelosi, as a rule, doesn't allow for votes that she doesn't know the result of. She's really good at this.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoctorWasIn View Post
    Personally, I don't think the House will vote on articles of impeachment. I think they'll spend the next 12 months holding hearings after hearings, unless something comes out that'll truly shift public opinion dramatically.
    Don't be a fool, the Democrat controlled House has come this far.

    Trump will be impeached. The signs are the Senate will hold a trial...the trial will either be over quickly and the GOP majority will rubber stamp an acquittal (most likely) or it will be a longer trial with GOP senators gathering enough courage to convict and hoping that the senate trial will also persuade the public too.

    Yesterday's vote in the Kentucky Governor's race was a bad day for Trump...it seems every day is a bad day.

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    Re: Why actually prosecute this case before the wrong jury, when a better one is outside Washington

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich2018 View Post
    Don't be a fool, the Democrat controlled House has come this far.

    Trump will be impeached. The signs are the Senate will hold a trial...the trial will either be over quickly and the GOP majority will rubber stamp an acquittal (most likely) or it will be a longer trial with GOP senators gathering enough courage to convict and hoping that the senate trial will also persuade the public too.

    Yesterday's vote in the Kentucky Governor's race was a bad day for Trump...it seems every day is a bad day.
    I would argue that it's in the House's best interests to keep the hearings going as long as possible. As you say, unless some really damning information comes out, it's unlikely that the Senate will convict - and a failed impeachment is a political loss that Pelosi will avoid as much as possible. The longer the hearings go, the more likely something damning will come out, the longer they can keep this in the headlines, the more it damages Trump next year.

    On the other hand, if the House sends Articles of Impeachment to the Senate early next year and the Senate rejects them, Trump has months to re-energize his base and the means to do it.
    Don't believe something just because you want to.

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